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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!
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byne
, juil. 30 2012 07:09
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#47502
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 03:27
IronSabbath88
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I think one of BioWare's biggest mistakes was making as many Reapers as they did. We've seen the Quarian fleet take down a Reaper with Shepard's help so it's not out of the question that it can't be done conventionally. However, I think the fact that BW made so many reapers exist is the reason we're at where we are now. They wrote themselves into a corner with that.
#47503
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 03:31
SNascimento
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Damn, do people still believe in this?!
#47504
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 04:00
Raistlin Majare 1992
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SNascimento wrote...
Damn, do people still believe in this?!
Considering the pile of evidence supporting the IT has only grown with time (and even more so with DLC) is it really a suprise?
To give you one example, have you played Leviathan? If not then there is a time where Shepard becomes trapped in his own mind by Leviathan. This scene starts out with Shepard on his knees even as Leviathan takes the image of Ann walking towards him and saying "Breathe."
Try comparing that to the end choices where Shepard wakes up on his knees before the catalyst (in the exact same way) even as the Catalyst walks towards him and says wake up.
Is it a complete coincedence that the Reapers creators, the Leviathans, traps Shepard in his own mind in a sequence which for its start almost directly mirrors the start of the Catalyst scene?
Gets even more curious when the Leviathan says that the Reaper have perfected this mind control ability of Leviathans.
And believe me that is just a snowflake on the iceberg of evidence that has been gathered. Do yourself a favor and look through the links at the first post of this thread, learn a bit about IT before you start on the disbelief. Just a suggestion.
Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 17 novembre 2012 - 04:01 .
#47505
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 04:04
Rifneno
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IronSabbath88 wrote...
I think one of BioWare's biggest mistakes was making as many Reapers as they did. We've seen the Quarian fleet take down a Reaper with Shepard's help so it's not out of the question that it can't be done conventionally. However, I think the fact that BW made so many reapers exist is the reason we're at where we are now. They wrote themselves into a corner with that.
They took down a destroyer. That's a far cry from a capital ship. And no, they didn't write themselves into a corner with it. Remember ME1? "Where are the rest of the Reapers? Are you the last of your kind?" "We are legion! The time of our return is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world." It's clear that the Reaper fleet was planned to be insanely massive from the start. And why wouldn't it be, considering the time they spent amassing it? That doesn't mean they can't be defeated, just that they can't be defeated in a straight up fight with the technology available to us now. And they shouldn't be. That'd be incredibly stupid. They didn't wipe out countless civilizations by not being overwhelmingly more powerful than the organics.
#47506
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 04:04
Raistlin Majare 1992
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IronSabbath88 wrote...
I think one of BioWare's biggest mistakes was making as many Reapers as they did. We've seen the Quarian fleet take down a Reaper with Shepard's help so it's not out of the question that it can't be done conventionally. However, I think the fact that BW made so many reapers exist is the reason we're at where we are now. They wrote themselves into a corner with that.
We dont know exactly how many Reapers exist. In fact I did a head count of how many Sovereign class Reapers could be seen above Earth in the space battle cinematic using a paticularly wide shot. I ended up with roughly 175 Sovereign class Reapers. More than enough to prevent a conventional victory at Earth, but not a block out the sky of a planet number.
#47507
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 04:05
Krimzie
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SNascimento wrote...
Damn, do people still believe in this?!
Every time I run to the beam I believe it more. Ah, such deliberate stripping of my Shepard's power, black oily tendrils, absurd conversations... The Reapers would never take minds as they are. They break em down first so they submit and ascend and agree to become a Nation.
#47508
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 04:06
Rifneno
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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
IronSabbath88 wrote...
I think one of BioWare's biggest mistakes was making as many Reapers as they did. We've seen the Quarian fleet take down a Reaper with Shepard's help so it's not out of the question that it can't be done conventionally. However, I think the fact that BW made so many reapers exist is the reason we're at where we are now. They wrote themselves into a corner with that.
We dont know exactly how many Reapers exist. In fact I did a head count of how many Sovereign class Reapers could be seen above Earth in the space battle cinematic using a paticularly wide shot. I ended up with roughly 175 Sovereign class Reapers. More than enough to prevent a conventional victory at Earth, but not a block out the sky of a planet number.
For some reason, people actually think that ALL the Reapers are gathered at Earth. Even though the galaxy map is a cluster**** of Reaper-occupied systems.
#47509
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 04:09
IronSabbath88
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Rifneno wrote...
IronSabbath88 wrote...
I think one of BioWare's biggest mistakes was making as many Reapers as they did. We've seen the Quarian fleet take down a Reaper with Shepard's help so it's not out of the question that it can't be done conventionally. However, I think the fact that BW made so many reapers exist is the reason we're at where we are now. They wrote themselves into a corner with that.
They took down a destroyer. That's a far cry from a capital ship. And no, they didn't write themselves into a corner with it. Remember ME1? "Where are the rest of the Reapers? Are you the last of your kind?" "We are legion! The time of our return is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world." It's clear that the Reaper fleet was planned to be insanely massive from the start. And why wouldn't it be, considering the time they spent amassing it? That doesn't mean they can't be defeated, just that they can't be defeated in a straight up fight with the technology available to us now. And they shouldn't be. That'd be incredibly stupid. They didn't wipe out countless civilizations by not being overwhelmingly more powerful than the organics.
Which brings me to my other point... how the hell are they supposed to be stopped in a way that makes thematic sense with the universe?
Christ, as much as I hate the ending as it stands I don't see how else you could go about writing such a thing.
#47510
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 04:28
Rifneno
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IronSabbath88 wrote...
Which brings me to my other point... how the hell are they supposed to be stopped in a way that makes thematic sense with the universe?
Christ, as much as I hate the ending as it stands I don't see how else you could go about writing such a thing.
Projectiles at FTL speeds > Reapers. We just need to create the technology to do it, or to hack past the safeguards in the FTL tech that the Reapers left behind for organics.
#47511
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 04:29
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This, if it turns out to be true, looks awesome:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/13817665/1#13817665
Now that's a DLC I could get behind.
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/13817665/1#13817665
Now that's a DLC I could get behind.
#47512
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 04:31
Restrider
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Rifneno wrote...
IronSabbath88 wrote...
I think one of BioWare's biggest mistakes was making as many Reapers as they did. We've seen the Quarian fleet take down a Reaper with Shepard's help so it's not out of the question that it can't be done conventionally. However, I think the fact that BW made so many reapers exist is the reason we're at where we are now. They wrote themselves into a corner with that.
They took down a destroyer. That's a far cry from a capital ship. And no, they didn't write themselves into a corner with it. Remember ME1? "Where are the rest of the Reapers? Are you the last of your kind?" "We are legion! The time of our return is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world." It's clear that the Reaper fleet was planned to be insanely massive from the start. And why wouldn't it be, considering the time they spent amassing it? That doesn't mean they can't be defeated, just that they can't be defeated in a straight up fight with the technology available to us now. And they shouldn't be. That'd be incredibly stupid. They didn't wipe out countless civilizations by not being overwhelmingly more powerful than the organics.
I agree to some extent, though I think the "unconventional" victory through the Crucible - especially when not fully understanding it - is more than doubtful.
The bolded part is partly false. They've beaten countless civilizations, because the Citadel and the Relays were a deceptive, cunning trap that instantly decapitates the civilizations' government, economy, culture and military (Citadel usually is the center of these) leaving each star system in confusion and disconnected from each other, if the Relay Network has been shut down.
Of course the number of ships in their fleet, the resilience of their ships, the lack of any supply lines and their notion to use the civilizations' resources against them (husks etc.) also increases their potential, but the point mentioned above is the main reason for their success over the millennia.
#47513
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 04:39
Krimzie
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starlitegirlx wrote...
This, if it turns out to be true, looks awesome:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/13817665/1#13817665
Now that's a DLC I could get behind.
PS by the way, your most recent post there is really well-written and logical regarding plot points outside of the ending! I'm hoping that since it is outside of this thread, it gets other people's wheels turning.
#47514
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 04:46
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IronSabbath88 wrote...
Rifneno wrote...
IronSabbath88 wrote...
I think one of BioWare's biggest mistakes was making as many Reapers as they did. We've seen the Quarian fleet take down a Reaper with Shepard's help so it's not out of the question that it can't be done conventionally. However, I think the fact that BW made so many reapers exist is the reason we're at where we are now. They wrote themselves into a corner with that.
They took down a destroyer. That's a far cry from a capital ship. And no, they didn't write themselves into a corner with it. Remember ME1? "Where are the rest of the Reapers? Are you the last of your kind?" "We are legion! The time of our return is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world." It's clear that the Reaper fleet was planned to be insanely massive from the start. And why wouldn't it be, considering the time they spent amassing it? That doesn't mean they can't be defeated, just that they can't be defeated in a straight up fight with the technology available to us now. And they shouldn't be. That'd be incredibly stupid. They didn't wipe out countless civilizations by not being overwhelmingly more powerful than the organics.
Which brings me to my other point... how the hell are they supposed to be stopped in a way that makes thematic sense with the universe?
Christ, as much as I hate the ending as it stands I don't see how else you could go about writing such a thing.
There could be a crucible that only destroys the reapers. You could find a way onto the citadel and trigger it the same way you worked the control panel in ME1. Getting onto the citadel is the tricky part if it's a DLC, but maybe you don't need to get onto it. Maybe just docking the crucible triggers it to work and destroy all the reapers but not the relays. In fact, why would you need to be on the citadel to make it work? If they could code the keepers to keep the reapers from allowing the reapers to come through, they why couldn't they code the cruicible to automatically begin working the moment it docked. When did it dock? During the time of the indoctrination, right? So it may not have actually docked. And it may be designed to target reapers only. Liara said it was never completed so we don't know how it works in full detail. Strange that part is left wide open so that ANYTHING could happen.
I just think back to those ugly little keepers. They kept the citadel running and kept the cycles going and the protheans figured it out as well as changing their ability to let them through. They also worked on the crucible while understanding of the coding as it related to the keepers.
We make a lot of assumptions about things but there were a lot of things that were left with open options regarding the crucible, what it does, and how it works. Do we even know what the catalyst is? What did we learn about it exactly (I don't remember). I only remember the conversation was that it was too late because the citadel was taken to the sol system and we no longer had control. Can someone clarify the whole coversation for me? Is there footage of it? I could swear he said it was the citadel that was the catalyst and nothing about the brat we got. So IIRC, and the citadel is the catalyst, then docking it should be enough, shouldn't it?
#47515
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 04:52
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Krimzie wrote...
starlitegirlx wrote...
This, if it turns out to be true, looks awesome:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/13817665/1#13817665
Now that's a DLC I could get behind.
PS by the way, your most recent post there is really well-written and logical regarding plot points outside of the ending! I'm hoping that since it is outside of this thread, it gets other people's wheels turning.
Thanks you, Krimzie! I learned a lot here the past week, that calling people who don't get it idiots really is wrong because ther are so many reasons why people don't accept or believe in IT that it's not an intelligence thing as much as an open-minded thing and being to see beyond the literal and being able to be willing to see beyond it. Also, it depends on whether someone has a psychological attachment to control or synthesis, which I've seen in other threads. They like shepard as a god figure head. They like reapers that are friends and all is peaceful. They are motivated by psychological needs and cannot see beyond that. Best anyone can do is present evidence that may cause them to look at it from another perspective. That's why I tried. But everyone is entitled to their opinions and beliefs, even when the evidence can show something entirely different.
#47516
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 05:27
Andromidius
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Dwailing wrote...
Huh, I just had a thought. The stab of music that you hear at the end of each dream as the kid burns reminds me of the end of An End Once And For All (Original).
Because it is. Its hyper-slowed down, and only plays a few notes, but its the same as An End Once And For All.
I believe its even heard (very faintly) during the intro when Shepard gets knocked down by the beam, next to the bench.
#47517
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 05:32
Andromidius
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Rifneno wrote...
IronSabbath88 wrote...
I think one of BioWare's biggest mistakes was making as many Reapers as they did. We've seen the Quarian fleet take down a Reaper with Shepard's help so it's not out of the question that it can't be done conventionally. However, I think the fact that BW made so many reapers exist is the reason we're at where we are now. They wrote themselves into a corner with that.
They took down a destroyer. That's a far cry from a capital ship. And no, they didn't write themselves into a corner with it. Remember ME1? "Where are the rest of the Reapers? Are you the last of your kind?" "We are legion! The time of our return is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world." It's clear that the Reaper fleet was planned to be insanely massive from the start. And why wouldn't it be, considering the time they spent amassing it? That doesn't mean they can't be defeated, just that they can't be defeated in a straight up fight with the technology available to us now. And they shouldn't be. That'd be incredibly stupid. They didn't wipe out countless civilizations by not being overwhelmingly more powerful than the organics.
Technically speaking, even one Reaper would qualify.
Either that or there's a mega plot twist Sovereign is Legion.
/fakedramaticmusic
But yeah, there are thousands of them at least. Maybe not Dreadnoughts, but definately Destroyers and varients. Speaking of which, they should have shown us more Reaper varients in action in ME3.
As for all this talk about Shepard being the Catalyst, and the Reapers failed using the Protheans because they lacked Javik, that's interesting and plausible.
Its even possible there were multiple Catalysts during the Prothean era, each a Paragon of a certain aspect that the Reapers desired. But they got none of them, or maybe just one - the Collector General?
#47518
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 05:48
masster blaster
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Morning guys what's up?
#47519
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 06:10
MaximizedAction
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Andromidius wrote...
Dwailing wrote...
Huh, I just had a thought. The stab of music that you hear at the end of each dream as the kid burns reminds me of the end of An End Once And For All (Original).
Because it is. Its hyper-slowed down, and only plays a few notes, but its the same as An End Once And For All.
I believe its even heard (very faintly) during the intro when Shepard gets knocked down by the beam, next to the bench.
I believe it's rather Leaving Earth than An End. And yeah, the dream version is playing very quietly for one or two seconds when Shepard is lying knocked out next to the bench. Someone did a youtube video with the 5.1 audio channels playing seperately. Don't have the link to the video but I only noticed it in that video.
#47520
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 06:12
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MaximizedAction wrote...
Andromidius wrote...
Dwailing wrote...
Huh, I just had a thought. The stab of music that you hear at the end of each dream as the kid burns reminds me of the end of An End Once And For All (Original).
Because it is. Its hyper-slowed down, and only plays a few notes, but its the same as An End Once And For All.
I believe its even heard (very faintly) during the intro when Shepard gets knocked down by the beam, next to the bench.
I believe it's rather Leaving Earth than An End. And yeah, the dream version is playing very quietly for one or two seconds when Shepard is lying knocked out next to the bench. Someone did a youtube video with the 5.1 audio channels playing seperately. Don't have the link to the video but I only noticed it in that video.
That's very interesting.
#47521
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 06:30
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Andromidius wrote...
Rifneno wrote...
IronSabbath88 wrote...
I think one of BioWare's biggest mistakes was making as many Reapers as they did. We've seen the Quarian fleet take down a Reaper with Shepard's help so it's not out of the question that it can't be done conventionally. However, I think the fact that BW made so many reapers exist is the reason we're at where we are now. They wrote themselves into a corner with that.
They took down a destroyer. That's a far cry from a capital ship. And no, they didn't write themselves into a corner with it. Remember ME1? "Where are the rest of the Reapers? Are you the last of your kind?" "We are legion! The time of our return is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world." It's clear that the Reaper fleet was planned to be insanely massive from the start. And why wouldn't it be, considering the time they spent amassing it? That doesn't mean they can't be defeated, just that they can't be defeated in a straight up fight with the technology available to us now. And they shouldn't be. That'd be incredibly stupid. They didn't wipe out countless civilizations by not being overwhelmingly more powerful than the organics.
Technically speaking, even one Reaper would qualify.
Either that or there's a mega plot twist Sovereign is Legion.
/fakedramaticmusic
But yeah, there are thousands of them at least. Maybe not Dreadnoughts, but definately Destroyers and varients. Speaking of which, they should have shown us more Reaper varients in action in ME3.
As for all this talk about Shepard being the Catalyst, and the Reapers failed using the Protheans because they lacked Javik, that's interesting and plausible.
Its even possible there were multiple Catalysts during the Prothean era, each a Paragon of a certain aspect that the Reapers desired. But they got none of them, or maybe just one - the Collector General?
I wonder if we went back and looked more closely at 'the catalyst' would we see it differently. I thought it was shepard because shepard had been the ONLY thing driving them forward just as liara states in her cabin at one point. When I think of a catalyst, I thik of its definition: an agent that provokes or speeds significant change or action. Is then shepard not the catalyst? Liara says it. I think even Jeff and Garrus imply it. All of whom have been there from the start. If shepard just walked away, who would drive them forward? If shepard stayed dead after the collector attack, who would have pressed on? The reapers would have won. This is my reasoning for shepard being the catalyst. Not in the way most people seem to have understood it, but in the way that without shepard, they'd already been harvested. Without shepard going to ilos, it would have been done. So shepard is A catalyst. And the fact that the collectors/reapers wanted shepard shows they are aware of this.
Perhaps examining more thoroughly the whole concept of the catalyst as presented in game might make it clearer. I'm only going on the basic definition which shepard fits perfectly. I never felt or believed it was some special technology or something they didn't already have. Nor did I think it was some secret magical solution. It's Shepard - his/her will, his/her pressing forward even when nearly everyone has turned against him/her. Shepard is the agent of change and action.
Have we gotten too literal in our interpretation of the catalyst? I wonder about that. It seems to be largely taken at face value (from my perspective) that it is something we did not possess already and something that we had to find, something hidden and unknown. I just never felt that was the case, but that's my own opinion. Clearly a rare one.
#47522
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 06:53
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Interesting thread here if you want to hear player's psychological reasoning (and attachment) to certain endings:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/14907076/1#14907076
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/14907076/1#14907076
Modifié par starlitegirlx, 17 novembre 2012 - 06:53 .
#47523
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 07:15
spotlessvoid
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The Citadel arms have to be opened for the crucible to dock.
#47524
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 07:17
IronSabbath88
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Again, I had some interesting thoughts while playing multiplayer (What is it about the multiplayer that brings me to think more than I usually do? xD)
Anyway, I was thinking that maybe BioWare did truly intend to end Shepard's saga after all the singleplayer DLC was released. Think about it, why release story driven content before the final mission if Shepard's mission is technically already over in the first place? Sure the argument has been stated that if the ending was better people would buy the DLC right away, but I don't think BW may see it like that.
It's like releasing a movie, having it end, then re-releasing the movie with more parts thrown in the middle. It makes no sense.
Anyway, I was thinking that maybe BioWare did truly intend to end Shepard's saga after all the singleplayer DLC was released. Think about it, why release story driven content before the final mission if Shepard's mission is technically already over in the first place? Sure the argument has been stated that if the ending was better people would buy the DLC right away, but I don't think BW may see it like that.
It's like releasing a movie, having it end, then re-releasing the movie with more parts thrown in the middle. It makes no sense.
#47525
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 07:25
Andromidius
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starlitegirlx wrote...
Interesting thread here if you want to hear player's psychological reasoning (and attachment) to certain endings:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/14907076/1#14907076
Ignore the insane, that's my best advice.
When you seriously consider it wise to listen to your confessed arch-enemy and ignore everything your trusted friends and allies have been telling you for appoximately 100 hours of gametime, then you're insane.
No other word for it, insane.
INSANE.
