80611 réponses à ce sujet

[IronSabbath88]

The one thing that really gets to me about the logic of the Catalyst and all this is how the reapers readily used the geth and collectors to do their bidding. If the Catalyst is out to prevent the chaos, then why exactly is he using the reapers to create even more chaos between synthetics and organics? Isn't this just causing more of a nuisance on what you're designed to do?

Plus, Leviathan uses the info that the reapers "preserve" the galaxy's oldest races in reaper form...

... which begs the question, why were you using the Protheans bodies to make Collectors to serve as slaves? That's not preserving, that's slavery.

[MaximizedAction]

GenHav0c wrote...

No its not a hallucination.

Why do I say that, this is not a soap opra on at 1pm in its 67th seasion.

The voices and dreams he has are simple stree combined with Shell shock. If you let Legion die in ME 2 you can hear him say "Shepard- Commander" if he dosent you dont hear that. I also noticed Kadin saying to go save Ash from the nuke.
...

Watched "The Manchurian Candidate" yesterday...that is supposed to portray ex soldiers with supposed to suffer from, say PTSD. The devs of ME3 have a very good sense for detail and the way they portrayed Shepard in ME3...he's not suffering from sh*t. Especially since he has seen enough and had to give enough horrible commands that costed lives much more in numbers and much more important to him than a kid or some soldiers or civilians.

Doesn't mean that Shepard is immune to the casualties of a Reaper invasion, however he was one of the few who were actually expecting and knowing it to happen soon.

But all in all, if all this stuff that Shepard went through in the trilogy had to catch up on him...why is it exactly during the Reaper invasion? Only because the Reapers are the ultimate and ruthless enemy or maybe also because the Reapers have this stupid little thing called indoctrination that has its effect on the mind.

From that everything else in IT can be legitimatelly derived.

In short: why should it NOT be IT?

[byne]

GenHav0c wrote...

Most importantly the Protien VIs can detect indoctrination. SInce he has the dreams before finding the one on Thesia and it dosnt freak out we know hes not indoctrinated.

One of these days people will understand we arent saying Shepard has already been indoctrinated, but is simply undergoing the process.

Until then, this will have to do:

[masster blaster]

Plus 1 byne real. If people still use this to disprove IT, I just..Ijust don't know

[lex0r11]

[BansheeOwnage]

starlitegirlx wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Plus 1 byne real. If people still use this to disprove IT, I just..Ijust don't know

No hope for future of humanity?

Very little indeed. We need a real Shepard.

Hey MB, Byne, everyone else.

[byne]

lex0r11 wrote...

*troll detected snip*

I totally should have used this.

[Dwailing]

Lex! You're actually here! Long time no see.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

GenHav0c wrote...

No its not a hallucination.

Why do I say that, this is not a soap opra on at 1pm in its 67th seasion.

The voices and dreams he has are simple stree combined with Shell shock. If you let Legion die in ME 2 you can hear him say "Shepard- Commander" if he dosent you dont hear that. I also noticed Kadin saying to go save Ash from the nuke.

Most importantly the Protien VIs can detect indoctrination. SInce he has the dreams before finding the one on Thesia and it dosnt freak out we know hes not indoctrinated.


All that being said remember, this is ME 3 you pick how the game ends, if you want to say your guy is indoctrinated then use that for picking Controle, Synthises or the not doing anying option. Remember its all our game and each of us makes it our own.

....but for when Shepard comes back in the Mass Effect after Bio does there side story game to bring in more lore, the only way you could play it would be to fess up and say Shepards not indoctrinated.

Yes it is our game, but not our story. It is Bioware´s story and though we can shape it through choice, Bioware, not you is the ones who decide where and how the game ends and what Shepard ultimate fate is depending on the sum of your choices.

Also you are using the two most outdated anti IT arguments of all, PTSD and the Prothean VI.

Byne allready did a fantastic cover of why the VI is far from flawless and as Shepard we never said Shepard was Indoctrinated, only he is in the process and the decision is the break point.

As for PTSD. Shepard has been through much worse before the kid died without showing any symptoms and funny enough Indoctrination share alot of symptoms with PTSD (which is part of what makes it hard to detect) but it lacks one critical bit.

PTSD causes a powerful aversion to the things and events which caused the trauma. Bioware demonstrates a perfect understanding of this paticular symptom twice in the form of two PTSD victims, the Asari from Huerta and Kelly Chambers who both stay away from what caused their trauma. Kelly Chambers cant return to the Nromandy due to PTSD following the Collector kidnapping and the Asari cannot shower.

Shepards symptoms if it was PTSD would by all logic include an aversion to Kids...and Reapers.. since those are the things involved in the so called Trauma. It is not even Sovereign class Reapers, it is Destroyers, the kind of Reaper Shepard faces head on no less than 3 times throughout the game.

Also regarding the voices Shepard hears in the nightmares, remember this line from Leviathan "Your memories give shape to our words." The Leviathans and by extension the Reapers draw upon the victims memory when constructing the Indoctrination so Shepard hearing his dead squadmates is just as easily a deliberate phycological weapon to break Shepards will in the nightmares.

[BatmanTurian]

GenHav0c wrote...

No its not a hallucination.

Why do I say that, this is not a soap opra on at 1pm in its 67th seasion.

The voices and dreams he has are simple stree combined with Shell shock. If you let Legion die in ME 2 you can hear him say "Shepard- Commander" if he dosent you dont hear that. I also noticed Kadin saying to go save Ash from the nuke.

Most importantly the Protien VIs can detect indoctrination. SInce he has the dreams before finding the one on Thesia and it dosnt freak out we know hes not indoctrinated.


All that being said remember, this is ME 3 you pick how the game ends, if you want to say your guy is indoctrinated then use that for picking Controle, Synthises or the not doing anying option. Remember its all our game and each of us makes it our own.

....but for when Shepard comes back in the Mass Effect after Bio does there side story game to bring in more lore, the only way you could play it would be to fess up and say Shepards not indoctrinated.

This guy rolled every troll point all into one troll post. Bravo.

[BansheeOwnage]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

GenHav0c wrote...

No its not a hallucination.

Why do I say that, this is not a soap opra on at 1pm in its 67th seasion.

The voices and dreams he has are simple stree combined with Shell shock. If you let Legion die in ME 2 you can hear him say "Shepard- Commander" if he dosent you dont hear that. I also noticed Kadin saying to go save Ash from the nuke.

Most importantly the Protien VIs can detect indoctrination. SInce he has the dreams before finding the one on Thesia and it dosnt freak out we know hes not indoctrinated.


All that being said remember, this is ME 3 you pick how the game ends, if you want to say your guy is indoctrinated then use that for picking Controle, Synthises or the not doing anying option. Remember its all our game and each of us makes it our own.

....but for when Shepard comes back in the Mass Effect after Bio does there side story game to bring in more lore, the only way you could play it would be to fess up and say Shepards not indoctrinated.

Yes it is our game, but not our story. It is Bioware´s story and though we can shape it through choice, Bioware, not you is the ones who decide where and how the game ends and what Shepard ultimate fate is depending on the sum of your choices.

Also you are using the two most outdated anti IT arguments of all, PTSD and the Prothean VI.

Byne allready did a fantastic cover of why the VI is far from flawless and as Shepard we never said Shepard was Indoctrinated, only he is in the process and the decision is the break point.

As for PTSD. Shepard has been through much worse before the kid died without showing any symptoms and funny enough Indoctrination share alot of symptoms with PTSD (which is part of what makes it hard to detect) but it lacks one critical bit.

PTSD causes a powerful aversion to the things and events which caused the trauma. Bioware demonstrates a perfect understanding of this paticular symptom twice in the form of two PTSD victims, the Asari from Huerta and Kelly Chambers who both stay away from what caused their trauma. Kelly Chambers cant return to the Nromandy due to PTSD following the Collector kidnapping and the Asari cannot shower.

Shepards symptoms if it was PTSD would by all logic include an aversion to Kids...and Reapers.. since those are the things involved in the so called Trauma. It is not even Sovereign class Reapers, it is Destroyers, the kind of Reaper Shepard faces head on no less than 3 times throughout the game.

Also regarding the voices Shepard hears in the nightmares, remember this line from Leviathan "Your memories give shape to our words." The Leviathans and by extension the Reapers draw upon the victims memory when constructing the Indoctrination so Shepard hearing his dead squadmates is just as easily a deliberate phycological weapon to break Shepards will in the nightmares.

Yup. Pretty much all of this. Very good. Shepard fearlessly faces a destroyer on Tuchanka, on Rannoch (alone!) and on Earth. No PTSD exists...

[Restrider]

Reposting it since it was during a weird time of the day:

BleedingUranium wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

You know, I think there's definitely something to this, "Shepard as a Reaper consciousness," thing. Sovvy said, "We are each a nation, independent." What does every nation have? A leader, a central figure.

I think it makes IT far more interesting, as it ties in even better with the plot than them just wanting to demoralize everyone; it goes all the way back to Saren. This stops all the people asking why the Reapers would bother indoctinating Shepard instead of killing him/if they were going to win anyway.

This is supported by EDI's line in the FOB: 
"It looks like the Reapers are holding back forces, but why?" (paraphrased of course)

This was odd to me at the first playthrough, but no other character commented on it, except Anderson who kind of ignored it and said something like: 
"And... what else are we supposed to do than attack?" (also paraphrased out of my memory)

I think this indicates that all the hallucinatory theories that claim that the indoctrination attempt was the last line of defense of the Reapers (Deception Theory, for instance) is not accurate. You do not hold back your forces intentionally, if your back is against the wall! And we know from earlier in the trilogy and the books that the Reapers are not some saturday morning villians, who are usually morons. They have a plan, and a plan that is way more subtle and complex than the Cylons in BSG.

To add to what demersel said:
This channel/link between the minds of an indoctrination victim and a Reaper has been mentioned in the Sovereign reveal!
The first words uttered by our beloved villian were:
"YOU ARE NOT SAREN! Rudamentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding."
(Kudos to Garrus Vakarian, Resident Tech-Expert)

I think the bolded part is not figuratvely but to be taken literal! A similar thing happens in the end of The Arrival DLC, where we have the conversation with Harbinger on a landing platform in outer space (where you usually do not find holoprojectors). Thus, I conclude that the image on Virmire was also a link between your crew and Sovereign, who was caught off guard and revealed himself to outsiders.

So, we have established that there is a link between the minds of a Reaper and an indoctrination victim (also featured in the end of ME1).

Maybe, after realizing that Harbinger is in our head, we have to fight our way out (comparable to the Geth Consesus mission or Overlord) and can get our hands on important information about the Crucible and about weaknesses of the Reapers. We could find out that the Crucible is a trap - designed by the Reapers - but can also be used, together with the Citadel, to harm the Reapers (my personal preference is here the darkspace mission).
We then have to get into the Citadel, claw our way to the Control Room fighting Reapers/Collectors and being supported by our Citadel War Assets (I really hope for a Suicide Mission 2.0) and go to darkspace.

Of course we would also have to add Cerberus and TIM in the equation. Maybe let TIM get some sort of redemption through helping Shepard reaching the Control Room.

[BansheeOwnage]

Restrider wrote...

Reposting it since it was during a weird time of the day:

BleedingUranium wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

You know, I think there's definitely something to this, "Shepard as a Reaper consciousness," thing. Sovvy said, "We are each a nation, independent." What does every nation have? A leader, a central figure.

I think it makes IT far more interesting, as it ties in even better with the plot than them just wanting to demoralize everyone; it goes all the way back to Saren. This stops all the people asking why the Reapers would bother indoctinating Shepard instead of killing him/if they were going to win anyway.

This is supported by EDI's line in the FOB: 
"It looks like the Reapers are holding back forces, but why?" (paraphrased of course)

This was odd to me at the first playthrough, but no other character commented on it, except Anderson who kind of ignored it and said something like: 
"And... what else are we supposed to do than attack?" (also paraphrased out of my memory)

I think this indicates that all the hallucinatory theories that claim that the indoctrination attempt was the last line of defense of the Reapers (Deception Theory, for instance) is not accurate. You do not hold back your forces intentionally, if your back is against the wall! And we know from earlier in the trilogy and the books that the Reapers are not some saturday morning villians, who are usually morons. They have a plan, and a plan that is way more subtle and complex than the Cylons in BSG.

To add to what demersel said:
This channel/link between the minds of an indoctrination victim and a Reaper has been mentioned in the Sovereign reveal!
The first words uttered by our beloved villian were:
"YOU ARE NOT SAREN! Rudamentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding."
(Kudos to Garrus Vakarian, Resident Tech-Expert)

I think the bolded part is not figuratvely but to be taken literal! A similar thing happens in the end of The Arrival DLC, where we have the conversation with Harbinger on a landing platform in outer space (where you usually do not find holoprojectors). Thus, I conclude that the image on Virmire was also a link between your crew and Sovereign, who was caught off guard and revealed himself to outsiders.

So, we have established that there is a link between the minds of a Reaper and an indoctrination victim (also featured in the end of ME1).

Maybe, after realizing that Harbinger is in our head, we have to fight our way out (comparable to the Geth Consesus mission or Overlord) and can get our hands on important information about the Crucible and about weaknesses of the Reapers. We could find out that the Crucible is a trap - designed by the Reapers - but can also be used, together with the Citadel, to harm the Reapers (my personal preference is here the darkspace mission).
We then have to get into the Citadel, claw our way to the Control Room fighting Reapers/Collectors and being supported by our Citadel War Assets (I really hope for a Suicide Mission 2.0) and go to darkspace.

Of course we would also have to add Cerberus and TIM in the equation. Maybe let TIM get some sort of redemption through helping Shepard reaching the Control Room.

Again, I agree with all that. TIM deserves a better death, I think. Going to eat lunch see you later.

[lex0r11]

Dwailing wrote...

Lex! You're actually here! Long time no see.

Ohai, Dwailing.

[BleedingUranium]

magnetite wrote...

Something I was thinking about for the past week was a quote from the movie Swordfish.

Misdirection. What the eyes see and the ears hear, the mind believes. As in some believed that the last 20 minutes of the game was actually happening.

That's really cool!

[paxxton]

Yeoman Kelly Chambers is the Catalyst. Think about it. She doesn't want to come back to the Normandy. Now, no one knows where she is and the Catalyst is said to be "missing."

[munnellyladt]

byne wrote...

GenHav0c wrote...

Most importantly the Protien VIs can detect indoctrination. SInce he has the dreams before finding the one on Thesia and it dosnt freak out we know hes not indoctrinated.

One of these days people will understand we arent saying Shepard has already been indoctrinated, but is simply undergoing the process.

Until then, this will have to do:

People still believe that?
Can humans be so deprived on stimulus that they must insist on ignoring everything?

[munnellyladt]

paxxton wrote...

Yeoman Kelly Chambers is the Catalyst. Think about it. She doesn't want to come back to the Normandy. Now, no one knows where she is and the Catalyst is said to be "missing."

What do you mean?

[BleedingUranium]

starlitegirlx wrote...

We really shouldn't engage the trolls. It's like trying to reason with indoctrinated people. If they come to our way of logic they'll just have to kill themselves like Saren and Tim.

Nah, we don't really try to reason with them, most won't get it. But it's a good way to practice summing up what IT's all about

Also, I played the end again yesterday, and London has more post-end clues than IT clues!

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 17 novembre 2012 - 11:09 .

[paxxton]

munnellyladt wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Yeoman Kelly Chambers is the Catalyst. Think about it. She doesn't want to come back to the Normandy. Now, no one knows where she is and the Catalyst is said to be "missing."

What do you mean?

It just makes so much sense now.

[paxxton]

starlitegirlx wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Yeoman Kelly Chambers is the Catalyst. Think about it. She doesn't want to come back to the Normandy. Now, no one knows where she is and the Catalyst is said to be "missing."

It really is a slow night in this thread, isn't it?

 But you must admit that'd be something no one expected the Catalyst to be.