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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#49301
The Heretic of Time

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Eryri wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

As for Shepard fighting the Catalyst: I would only like it is the Catalyst was NOT a grotesque monster, but instead an elegant but rather strange entity like the Anti-Spiral Nemesis.


Fair enough. When I was trying to come to terms with the mind-numbing, wretchedness of the original endings, I headcanoned my own IT based, perfect ending to the trilogy, starting with Shep penetrating the Brat's BS with a dialogue option. 

The brat would then give a demonic little smile and transform into an evil mirror image of our Shepards, with whatever class you happened to have. 

An actual video-gamey boss fight could then ensue, ending with the satisfaction of Shep plunging his omniblade into Starbinger's chest.

This would be the moment he woke up in London to find Harbinger thrashing around in mental agony a-la Sovereign following Saren's destruction.

Or something along those lines. Cheesy I know, but at least something like that would enable me to play the game again. As it is I gave up around Mars on my second playthrough.:unsure:


I don't like the "it was all just a dream" idea (basically what IT is) at all, but I do love the rest of your idea.

I would love it if BioWare would add the option to contradict the Catalyst and challenge him to a fight. I don't however like the idea of Shepard waking up in London realizing the entire fight with the Catalyst was all just a dream / hallicunation / illusion. I'm not a big fan of those kind of plot-twists.

#49302
Wayning_Star

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Wayning Star:

Truth! Synthesis is definitely needed to get EDI and the Geth to be at peace with organics. No other way to stop their reign of terror.


Edi is sweet on Joker and the Geth just want to retire to their machine planet to contemplate their universe un encumbered..

Yep, reign of terror right there fur sure...lol

but if we destroy them, the next batch of usefuls will probably cop an attitude...hense the cycle/pattern?

(not all patterns are created equal either, so it may not be an actual 'catalyst' next time the synths rebel..might be worse...no choices..at all..just zzzzaaap!! synthetics rule the roost. No organics around to feel the burn.)

#49303
The Heretic of Time

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demersel wrote...

 Guys. Check it out - that is the start of cerberus coup mission. Does anything strike you as odd? 
www.youtube.com/watch


Looks like a glitch to me. But to be honest, I haven't played ME3 since early April anymore. I can't remember what that scene used to look like. So I wouldn't know. 

#49304
Raistlin Majare 1992

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Wayning_Star wrote...

but, it all leads back to synthesis as the story requires a 'cure' for the cycle. Destroy doesn't go that far, as the creation of synthetic life, apparently, triggers a competition with organic existence. For organics to even competitively exist in the MEU, technology holds that key. Without advanced Ai, the MEU organic survival as noted in their expansion, would be limited. Logic dictates that synthesis is inevitable, so.. why wait?

We end up there anyway, as stated within the game, not only by the catalyst, but by the very nature of existence within the MEU. By taking advantage of left overs to advance within that structured enviornment, proposed by the catalyst, who, apparently, via the Leviathan obtains the tech needed to create it's experiment. IT undermines the experiment the catalyst starts, well, the Levithan starts, via the catalyst.

Indoctrination evokes a kind of hero thing with Shep over coming the influence, but still, it seem counter productive for the catalyst to frustrate it's own experiment with another control. If Shep were indoctrinated, there would be NO experiment, even it Shep were to overcome the indoctrination. That would leave destroy, and that would upend the experiment. The catalyst wouldn't, logically, invoke a control agent into an experiment the ruins the results. It would have to start over from scratch.

just say'n


Please remember that anything about the cycle beeing enacted to protect Organics from Synthetics and Synthesis ending it (as well as Synthesis beeing inevitable) comes directly from the Catalyst and no one else. It simply claims that Synthetics will always kill organics (despite us making peace between Quarian and Geth) and as such it decided to preserve all species by harvesting them.

Leviathan only wanted an end to Synthetics killing organics, not enact the cycle and it certainly never says anything about Synthesis.

The Catalyst supposed goal is also refuted by every action we have seen the Reapers take up until this point. The Geth only go to war because of the Reapers even beeing setup so taht without Shepards interference either the Quarians or Geth would have been wiped out going directly against the solution the Catatlyst claims to enforce. Javik also confirms that the Reapers seized control of the Zha´til in his cycle and used them against the Protheans, yep so much protecting the Organics from the ecil Synthetics.

And there is a very simple reason we should not simply seize their technology for our own, but advance carefully.

Remember what happened when the Salarians uplifted the krogan, gave them tech beyond what they were ready for? The Krogan Rebelions.

Shepard even points this out to TIM in the last conversation with him if you go the Paragon route, that we, the galaxy, is not ready for the technology the Reapers would bring (and he/she conveniently forgets this a moment later).

Beyond that Synthesis by the way it is explained is utterly ludicrous and past attempts and creations from Synthesis have been abominations. Saren, the synthesis supporter says directly "I am a vision of the future Shepard, a union of flesh and steel the strengths of both the weaknesses of neither." The dlc Overlord is a perfect example of the horror of what can happen when you strap an organic beeing into a cage of metal, the dlc even comes with a nice Synthesis green color. The collectors is an example of the horro of Synthesis, hell every single Reaper unit we fight including he Reapers themselves is Synthesis and constantly speak of how you will be ascended.

Even more telling is the fact taht Sovereign refers to himself as the pinnacle of evolution. What words does the Catalyst use regaridng synthesis? Ah yes, final evolution of life (not even mentioning that there can be no such thing as a final evolution of life)

The Catalyst uses alot of beatiful words and promises, but he offers no proof or garantue. You are taking what the self proclaimed leader of the Reapers is telling you at face value after having fought your way through the Reapers Synthesis "nightmare factory" (Garrus).

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 21 novembre 2012 - 08:11 .


#49305
spotlessvoid

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All a dream? A dream doesn't have real world consequences.

#49306
demersel

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

demersel wrote...

 Guys. Check it out - that is the start of cerberus coup mission. Does anything strike you as odd? 
www.youtube.com/watch


Looks like a glitch to me. But to be honest, I haven't played ME3 since early April anymore. I can't remember what that scene used to look like. So I wouldn't know. 


i thought so too, but it replecates for me every time. 

#49307
Rifneno

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Wayning Star:

Truth! Synthesis is definitely needed to get EDI and the Geth to be at peace with organics. No other way to stop their reign of terror.


Posted Image

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I don't like the "it was all just a dream" idea (basically what IT is)


LOL. Just LOL.

#49308
The Heretic of Time

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spotlessvoid wrote...

All a dream? A dream doesn't have real world consequences.


Dream, illusion, hallicunation, Shepard trippin' balls, whatever, lets not make a big deal out of my choice of words, you know very well what I meant. <_<

#49309
Rifneno

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

All a dream? A dream doesn't have real world consequences.


Dream, illusion, hallicunation, Shepard trippin' balls, whatever, lets not make a big deal out of my choice of words, you know very well what I meant. <_<


We know what you meant. It's just sad that after reading it so much, you still DON'T GET IT.

#49310
Wayning_Star

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

As for Shepard fighting the Catalyst: I would only like it is the Catalyst was NOT a grotesque monster, but instead an elegant but rather strange entity like the Anti-Spiral Nemesis.


Fair enough. When I was trying to come to terms with the mind-numbing, wretchedness of the original endings, I headcanoned my own IT based, perfect ending to the trilogy, starting with Shep penetrating the Brat's BS with a dialogue option. 

The brat would then give a demonic little smile and transform into an evil mirror image of our Shepards, with whatever class you happened to have. 

An actual video-gamey boss fight could then ensue, ending with the satisfaction of Shep plunging his omniblade into Starbinger's chest.

This would be the moment he woke up in London to find Harbinger thrashing around in mental agony a-la Sovereign following Saren's destruction.

Or something along those lines. Cheesy I know, but at least something like that would enable me to play the game again. As it is I gave up around Mars on my second playthrough.:unsure:


I don't like the "it was all just a dream" idea (basically what IT is) at all, but I do love the rest of your idea.

I would love it if BioWare would add the option to contradict the Catalyst and challenge him to a fight. I don't however like the idea of Shepard waking up in London realizing the entire fight with the Catalyst was all just a dream / hallicunation / illusion. I'm not a big fan of those kind of plot-twists.


I looked at it as more like when Shep 'communed' with the Leviathan. Easy to assume that an organic couldn't physically be in the presence of the catalyst, it would emit too much energy and fry them instantly. So Shep had to beam up, or more like out of the body type experience to commune with the catalyst. So none of the stuff happening up there during the choices thing were "physical" more symbolic in nature. Why else would there be three different "humans" up there during it all. That always threw me a curve.

TIM: control

Anderson: destroy

Shep: All four?!?

totally off da'wall..imho

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 21 novembre 2012 - 08:13 .


#49311
The Heretic of Time

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Rifneno wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

All a dream? A dream doesn't have real world consequences.


Dream, illusion, hallicunation, Shepard trippin' balls, whatever, lets not make a big deal out of my choice of words, you know very well what I meant. <_<


We know what you meant. It's just sad that after reading it so much, you still DON'T GET IT.


Then you clearly don't know what I meant, because I clearly do get it.

#49312
Raistlin Majare 1992

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Rifneno wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

All a dream? A dream doesn't have real world consequences.


Dream, illusion, hallicunation, Shepard trippin' balls, whatever, lets not make a big deal out of my choice of words, you know very well what I meant. <_<


We know what you meant. It's just sad that after reading it so much, you still DON'T GET IT.


Let it rest, Rif, Heretic has his opinion we have ours and we both know none of us can change the others mind.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 21 novembre 2012 - 08:13 .


#49313
Eryri

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I don't like the "it was all just a dream" idea (basically what IT is) at all, but I do love the rest of your idea.

I would love it if BioWare would add the option to contradict the Catalyst and challenge him to a fight. I don't however like the idea of Shepard waking up in London realizing the entire fight with the Catalyst was all just a dream / hallicunation / illusion. I'm not a big fan of those kind of plot-twists.


I can understand that. I also hate stories where it turns out that nothing in the dream has consequences, and everything is reset to normal at the end.

But I think this kind of scenario could provide very real consequences. It's a battle for Shepard's soul. If he succumbs to indoctrination. If he is tempted away from his purpose by "the quick and easy paths" (to paraphrase a certain other sci-fi franchise) of Control or Synthesis, then he'll be Harbinger's cabana-boy for the rest of eternity. And if Shepard falls, the galaxy falls.

Also any actual boss fight itself could result in Shepard's physical death in a Matrix style "your mind makes it real" kind of way.

Edit: Sorry I'm a slow typer

Modifié par Eryri, 21 novembre 2012 - 08:17 .


#49314
Wayning_Star

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

All a dream? A dream doesn't have real world consequences.


Dream, illusion, hallicunation, Shepard trippin' balls, whatever, lets not make a big deal out of my choice of words, you know very well what I meant. <_<


We know what you meant. It's just sad that after reading it so much, you still DON'T GET IT.


Let it rest, Rif, Heretic has his opinion we have ours and we both know none of us can change the others mind.


yeah, we're all reapers in the end..lol

#49315
Rifneno

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

All a dream? A dream doesn't have real world consequences.


Dream, illusion, hallicunation, Shepard trippin' balls, whatever, lets not make a big deal out of my choice of words, you know very well what I meant. <_<


We know what you meant. It's just sad that after reading it so much, you still DON'T GET IT.


Let it rest, Rif, Heretic has his opinion we have ours and we both know none of us can change the others mind.


Where did you get the impression that I care about changing his mind?

#49316
masster blaster

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can we just get a long right now. let's just enjoy the non hostility for right now.

#49317
spotlessvoid

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

All a dream? A dream doesn't have real world consequences.


Dream, illusion, hallicunation, Shepard trippin' balls, whatever, lets not make a big deal out of my choice of words, you know very well what I meant. <_<


No fair assigning my words their actual meaning! Just a dream and indoctrination attempt certainly have no important nuances differentiating them, so yeah, I agree any word you choose definitely can be interchanged without confusion.

#49318
The Heretic of Time

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Wayning_Star wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

As for Shepard fighting the Catalyst: I would only like it is the Catalyst was NOT a grotesque monster, but instead an elegant but rather strange entity like the Anti-Spiral Nemesis.


Fair enough. When I was trying to come to terms with the mind-numbing, wretchedness of the original endings, I headcanoned my own IT based, perfect ending to the trilogy, starting with Shep penetrating the Brat's BS with a dialogue option. 

The brat would then give a demonic little smile and transform into an evil mirror image of our Shepards, with whatever class you happened to have. 

An actual video-gamey boss fight could then ensue, ending with the satisfaction of Shep plunging his omniblade into Starbinger's chest.

This would be the moment he woke up in London to find Harbinger thrashing around in mental agony a-la Sovereign following Saren's destruction.

Or something along those lines. Cheesy I know, but at least something like that would enable me to play the game again. As it is I gave up around Mars on my second playthrough.:unsure:


I don't like the "it was all just a dream" idea (basically what IT is) at all, but I do love the rest of your idea.

I would love it if BioWare would add the option to contradict the Catalyst and challenge him to a fight. I don't however like the idea of Shepard waking up in London realizing the entire fight with the Catalyst was all just a dream / hallicunation / illusion. I'm not a big fan of those kind of plot-twists.


I looked at it as more like when Shep 'communed' with the Leviathan. Easy to assume that an organic couldn't physically be in the presence of the catalyst, it would emit too much energy and fry them instantly. So Shep had to beam up, or more like out of the body type experience to commune with the catalyst. So none of the stuff happening up there during the choices thing were "physical" more symbolic in nature. Why else would there be three different "humans" up there during it all. That always through me a curve.

TIM: control

Anderson: destroy

Shep: All four?!?

totally off da'wall..imho


I would agree with you if the beam would lead us directly to the Catalyst. That would make your little theory a bit more plausible and logical. However, the beam doesn't lead us directly to the Catalyst.

With the whole drama with Anderson and the Illusive man i front of it, including the cutscenes where Shepard is in contact with Hackett, doesn't make your theory very plausible or logical.


But still, as I said before, I'm not a fan of these "all just a dream / hallicunation / matrix / projection / whateverson" -type of plot-twists. Just a case of personal opinion ofcourse. You might like it, but I don't.

#49319
The Heretic of Time

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Eryri wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I don't like the "it was all just a dream" idea (basically what IT is) at all, but I do love the rest of your idea.

I would love it if BioWare would add the option to contradict the Catalyst and challenge him to a fight. I don't however like the idea of Shepard waking up in London realizing the entire fight with the Catalyst was all just a dream / hallicunation / illusion. I'm not a big fan of those kind of plot-twists.


I can understand that. I also hate stories where it turns out that nothing in the dream has consequences, and everything is reset to normal at the end.

But I think this kind of scenario could provide very real consequences. It's a battle for Shepard's soul. If he succumbs to indoctrination. If he is tempted away from his purpose by "the quick and easy paths" (to paraphrase a certain other sci-fi franchise) of Control or Synthesis, then he'll be Harbinger's cabana-boy for the rest of eternity. And if Shepard falls, the galaxy falls.


I understand that. However, whether the "dream" does or doesn't have consequences, it doesn't matter to me. I just don't like these "omg it wasn't real, it was all in my head!' type of plot-twists. Like I said, personal opinion, you don't have to agree with it.

I think the only exception for me would be The Matrix. But in The Matrix it wasn't really a plot-twist. I already knew the first part of the movie was not real but just a virtual reality.


Also any actual boss fight itself could result in Shepard's physical death in a Matrix style "your mind makes it real" kind of way.


Yes and I get that. I just don't like it if this would be introduced in form of a plot-twist. I would be fine with the idea if it was introduced properly and we would be fully aware that we're in fact entering some time of Matrix, like that time when Shepard entered the geth consensus.

#49320
ElSuperGecko

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...
I would agree with you if the beam would lead us directly to the Catalyst. That would make your little theory a bit more plausible and logical. However, the beam doesn't lead us directly to the Catalyst.


The beam didn't, but the raising platform did.  Shepard passes out in front of the citadel console... we get the "dream transition white-out" .... and the next thing he's in a completely different area having a discussion with the Ghostly Vent Boy that haunts his dreams.  Coincydink?  Or is it all in his head and is he still sprawled out in front of the console?

I don't necessarily believe this is the case - just playing Devil's Advocate here ;-)

#49321
Eryri

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

But still, as I said before, I'm not a fan of these "all just a dream / hallicunation / matrix / projection / whateverson" -type of plot-twists. Just a case of personal opinion ofcourse. You might like it, but I don't.


As we say around my way; Chwarae teg. Different strokes for different folks and all that. ^_^

How would you feel about the "Waking nightmare" version of IT? Shepard really is on the citadel, but the brat is influencing his perceptions in a more subtle way?

#49322
spotlessvoid

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How can you have a plot twist like getting indoctrinated if they tell you that's what is happening? That doesn't make any sense. Neither does your comment about not beaming straight to the catalyst.

#49323
Rifneno

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spotlessvoid wrote...

How can you have a plot twist like getting indoctrinated if they tell you that's what is happening? That doesn't make any sense. Neither does your comment about not beaming straight to the catalyst.


Shepard: Why waste your time with us if you can control the Reapers?
TIM: Because... I need you to believe.

Damn, hanar's right, the content between the beam and the catalyst totally kills IT!

#49324
Wayning_Star

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

As for Shepard fighting the Catalyst: I would only like it is the Catalyst was NOT a grotesque monster, but instead an elegant but rather strange entity like the Anti-Spiral Nemesis.


Fair enough. When I was trying to come to terms with the mind-numbing, wretchedness of the original endings, I headcanoned my own IT based, perfect ending to the trilogy, starting with Shep penetrating the Brat's BS with a dialogue option. 

The brat would then give a demonic little smile and transform into an evil mirror image of our Shepards, with whatever class you happened to have. 

An actual video-gamey boss fight could then ensue, ending with the satisfaction of Shep plunging his omniblade into Starbinger's chest.

This would be the moment he woke up in London to find Harbinger thrashing around in mental agony a-la Sovereign following Saren's destruction.

Or something along those lines. Cheesy I know, but at least something like that would enable me to play the game again. As it is I gave up around Mars on my second playthrough.:unsure:


I don't like the "it was all just a dream" idea (basically what IT is) at all, but I do love the rest of your idea.

I would love it if BioWare would add the option to contradict the Catalyst and challenge him to a fight. I don't however like the idea of Shepard waking up in London realizing the entire fight with the Catalyst was all just a dream / hallicunation / illusion. I'm not a big fan of those kind of plot-twists.


I looked at it as more like when Shep 'communed' with the Leviathan. Easy to assume that an organic couldn't physically be in the presence of the catalyst, it would emit too much energy and fry them instantly. So Shep had to beam up, or more like out of the body type experience to commune with the catalyst. So none of the stuff happening up there during the choices thing were "physical" more symbolic in nature. Why else would there be three different "humans" up there during it all. That always through me a curve.

TIM: control

Anderson: destroy

Shep: All four?!?

totally off da'wall..imho


I would agree with you if the beam would lead us directly to the Catalyst. That would make your little theory a bit more plausible and logical. However, the beam doesn't lead us directly to the Catalyst.

With the whole drama with Anderson and the Illusive man i front of it, including the cutscenes where Shepard is in contact with Hackett, doesn't make your theory very plausible or logical.


But still, as I said before, I'm not a fan of these "all just a dream / hallicunation / matrix / projection / whateverson" -type of plot-twists. Just a case of personal opinion ofcourse. You might like it, but I don't.


It's all theoretical, something the catalyst is prone to. The so called "dream" lead directly to the catalyst. I couldn't imagine how much actual energy would expounded from an entity powered up as the catalsyt. One that can control all the reaperships, invoke chaos on an entire galaxy and still take time to chat with Shep about the future of said universe. As far as indoctrination goes, the catalyst could undoubtedly fry Sheps brain in an instant at that range, so I don't believe it's intention were do so. Given the crucible is attatched, it cannot, shackled. The indoctrinated man could and did, for a time, but even that wasn't enough to control Shep higer thinking, but then, Sheps body was down in a pile of rubble, waiting for that next shoe to drop.

The 'dream', if any is life in general, what we signpost as our reality is based on our experiences,eventhough,marginally, we settle on a basic real time to assess our current predicament..

So the dreamstate isn't far fetched at all, but to be controlled for the extent of our existence within the MEU, only to find in the end, that we have only one choice to end the cycle, is to promote it, seems disingenious to me.

Destroy won't work

Control won't work

Walk away might work, later

catalyst/synthetic realtime endevour to change nature to fit organic/synthetic survival seems the only synthesis from the given cohorts. We're screwed...er trapped like mice in a maze... organics built the better mousetrap.

#49325
The Heretic of Time

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ElSuperGecko wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
I would agree with you if the beam would lead us directly to the Catalyst. That would make your little theory a bit more plausible and logical. However, the beam doesn't lead us directly to the Catalyst.


The beam didn't, but the raising platform did.  Shepard passes out in front of the citadel console... we get the "dream transition white-out" .... and the next thing he's in a completely different area having a discussion with the Ghostly Vent Boy that haunts his dreams.  Coincydink?  Or is it all in his head and is he still sprawled out in front of the console?

I don't necessarily believe this is the case - just playing Devil's Advocate here ;-)




Well yeah, now you mention it, IF BioWare indeed wanted to use some time of indoctrination plot-device, the moment the platform raises would indeed be the PERFECT moment to switch from "real mode" to "dream-mode". That would mean everything up to the console of the Citadel would be real, and everything in the decision room would be in some type of Matrix.

...yeah, that could work. That could actually work very well! ^_^ 

I still don't like the idea though. :bandit: