80611 réponses à ce sujet

[spotlessvoid]

I'm bored of this

[Eryri]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Well yeah, now you mention it, IF BioWare indeed wanted to use some time of indoctrination plot-device, the moment the platform raises would indeed be the PERFECT moment to switch from "real mode" to "dream-mode". That would mean everything up to the console of the Citadel would be real, and everything in the decision room would be in some type of Matrix.

...yeah, that could work. That could actually work very well!  

I still don't like the idea though. 

:devil:MWAHAHAHA, we're wearing down his resistance! Soon he will turn! All is going according to our plan!

You cannot escape your destiny Heretic! One of us! One of us! One of us! 

Modifié par Eryri, 21 novembre 2012 - 08:39 .

[The Heretic of Time]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I'm bored of this

I could go back to my old trolling behavior, just for old times sake. Or you could ask if EXMEfan could come back. Or you could speculate about the same subject for the nth time, I'm sure that won't get boring. Or you can, you know, actually discuss the matter with someone who has a different point of view.

To each their own, but after spending 2000 (and more) pages on the same subject, it's bound th get boring. There isn't much you can do about it. Even talking about sex or whatever subject will get boring after 2000 pages... Just sayin'.

[The Heretic of Time]

Eryri wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Well yeah, now you mention it, IF BioWare indeed wanted to use some time of indoctrination plot-device, the moment the platform raises would indeed be the PERFECT moment to switch from "real mode" to "dream-mode". That would mean everything up to the console of the Citadel would be real, and everything in the decision room would be in some type of Matrix.

...yeah, that could work. That could actually work very well!  

I still don't like the idea though. 

:devil:MWAHAHAHA, we're wearing down his resistance! All is going according to our plan!

You cannot escape your destiny Heretic! One of us! One of us! One of us! 

Agreeing that IT COULD WORK is not the same as agreeing that IT IS SO. 


I still very much don't believe in the IT nor do I believe BioWare ever intended to use the IT nor do I think BioWare ever will use the IT in future DLC or games.

[Arashi08]

Rifneno wrote...

OMG. When I saw 20 new pages I thought something interesting actually happened. But everyone just can't stop feeding that thing? IT'ers, I am disappoint. Very disappoint.

agreed...

[zigamortis]

So has IT been disproved yet or is it still the best hope for a good ending?

[ElSuperGecko]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
Well yeah, now you mention it, IF BioWare indeed wanted to use some time of indoctrination plot-device, the moment the platform raises would indeed be the PERFECT moment to switch from "real mode" to "dream-mode". That would mean everything up to the console of the Citadel would be real, and everything in the decision room would be in some type of Matrix.

...yeah, that could work. That could actually work very well!  

I still don't like the idea though. 

One of the reasons I don't accept the usual IT interpretation of everything after Harbinger's blast and the beam to the Citadel being an indoctrination attempt is because that would mean the "quite the view" scene with Anderson didn't actually happen.  And it's probably the best and most emotionally engaging part of the ending.

However, I'm *convinced* there's something fishy about the Catalyst scene.  Too much of what the Catalyst tells us is either contrary to what we already know from the series or is simply not explained.  The way I see it, Shepard is onboard the Citadel, TIM's attempt to stop Shepard failed, the Crucible is docking... and the Reapers are powerless to stop Shepard at that point - EXCEPT by directly attacking Shepard's mind.  Indoctrination's the only weapon they have left which could stop him in time.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 21 novembre 2012 - 08:44 .

[CoolioThane]

I knew we'd eventually wear off on you Heretic

IT's not gonna be disproved or proved until Bioware do something about it. "Lots of speculation from everyone"

[Rifneno]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

One of the reasons I don't accept the usual IT interpretation of everything after Harbinger's blast and the beam to the Citadel being an indoctrination attempt is because that would mean the "quite the view" scene with Anderson didn't actually happen.  And it's probably the best and most emotionally engaging part of the ending.

However, I'm *convinced* there's something fishy about the Catalyst scene.  Too much of what the Catalyst tells us is either contrary to what we already know from the series or is simply not explained.  The way I see it, Shepard is onboard the Citadel, TIM's attempt to stop Shepard failed, the Crucible is docking... and the Reapers are powerless to stop Shepard at that point - EXCEPT by directly attacking Shepard's mind.  Indoctrination's the only weapon they have left which could stop him in time.

Unless of course the Crucible isn't what they think it is.

[The Heretic of Time]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
Well yeah, now you mention it, IF BioWare indeed wanted to use some time of indoctrination plot-device, the moment the platform raises would indeed be the PERFECT moment to switch from "real mode" to "dream-mode". That would mean everything up to the console of the Citadel would be real, and everything in the decision room would be in some type of Matrix.

...yeah, that could work. That could actually work very well!  

I still don't like the idea though. 

One of the reasons I don't accept the usual IT interpretation of everything after Harbinger's blast and the beam to the Citadel being an indoctrination attempt is because that would mean the "quite the view" scene with Anderson didn't actually happen.  And it's probably the best and most emotionally engaging part of the ending.

However, I'm *convinced* there's something fishy about the Catalyst scene.  Too much of what the Catalyst tells us is either contrary to what we already know from the series or is simply not explained.  The way I see it, Shepard is onboard the Citadel, TIM's attempt to stop Shepard failed, the Crucible is docking... and the Reapers are powerless to stop Shepard at that point - EXCEPT by directly attacking Shepard's mind.  Indoctrination's the only weapon they have left which could stop him in time.

I think your version of the IT makes the most sense. The regular IT is just way too far-fetched in my opinion. The idea that ONLY the conversation with the Catalyst is a "dream" is much less far-fetched.

However, it wouldn't change a goddamn thing though. Whether the Catalyst scene is in some kind of matrix or in real-space, it doesn't matter, the endings will still be the same.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 21 novembre 2012 - 08:49 .

[Rifneno]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I'm bored of this

I could go back to my old trolling behavior, just for old times sake. Or you could ask if EXMEfan could come back. Or you could speculate about the same subject for the nth time, I'm sure that won't get boring. Or you can, you know, actually discuss the matter with someone who has a different point of view.

To each their own, but after spending 2000 (and more) pages on the same subject, it's bound th get boring. There isn't much you can do about it. Even talking about sex or whatever subject will get boring after 2000 pages... Just sayin'.

That's only because after talking about sex for that long, you've doubtlessly resolved the issue that lead you to talking about it in the first place.

...  What?

[Eryri]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Agreeing that IT COULD WORK is not the same as agreeing that IT IS SO. 


I still very much don't believe in the IT nor do I believe BioWare ever intended to use the IT nor do I think BioWare ever will use the IT in future DLC or games.

Actually there's quite a few ITers like Bill Casey and Davik Kang who would be positively disappointed if there was ever an IT reveal. They like the idea of it being an unresolved mystery to be debated over til kingdom come.

Personally I don't know for certain if Bioware intended it or not. It just appeals to me for some reason.

Perhaps because I believe ME deserves a better ending than the one it got, and IT is about the only way I can see one happening. One where we see our war assets in action - hordes of Rachni swarming over Destroyers. An epic Harbinger boss fight followed by a crew and LI reunion.

Assuming for a minute that Bioware didn't plan the IT, corporate pride will prevent them from ever admitting their mistake and retconning it. However with IT they have a get out -"see we totally planned this all along guys, honest!" 

I wouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth. Wiping the smile off starbrat's face would just about make my Christmas.

Modifié par Eryri, 21 novembre 2012 - 08:54 .

[Wayning_Star]

Rifneno wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

One of the reasons I don't accept the usual IT interpretation of everything after Harbinger's blast and the beam to the Citadel being an indoctrination attempt is because that would mean the "quite the view" scene with Anderson didn't actually happen.  And it's probably the best and most emotionally engaging part of the ending.

However, I'm *convinced* there's something fishy about the Catalyst scene.  Too much of what the Catalyst tells us is either contrary to what we already know from the series or is simply not explained.  The way I see it, Shepard is onboard the Citadel, TIM's attempt to stop Shepard failed, the Crucible is docking... and the Reapers are powerless to stop Shepard at that point - EXCEPT by directly attacking Shepard's mind.  Indoctrination's the only weapon they have left which could stop him in time.

Unless of course the Crucible isn't what they think it is.

the catalyst doesn't need a weapon, as Shep cannot 'stop' anything.  Shep can only make one choice. Thats what makes it all so interesting, to me anyway, how others conceptualize the inevitable. That is the boss fight in ME3, organics changing nature to suit survival. The oldest battle known.

[masster blaster]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

One of the reasons I don't accept the usual IT interpretation of everything after Harbinger's blast and the beam to the Citadel being an indoctrination attempt is because that would mean the "quite the view" scene with Anderson didn't actually happen.  And it's probably the best and most emotionally engaging part of the ending.

However, I'm *convinced* there's something fishy about the Catalyst scene.  Too much of what the Catalyst tells us is either contrary to what we already know from the series or is simply not explained.  The way I see it, Shepard is onboard the Citadel, TIM's attempt to stop Shepard failed, the Crucible is docking... and the Reapers are powerless to stop Shepard at that point - EXCEPT by directly attacking Shepard's mind.  Indoctrination's the only weapon they have left which could stop him in time.

Unless of course the Crucible isn't what they think it is.

the catalyst doesn't need a weapon, as Shep cannot 'stop' anything.  Shep can only make one choice. Thats what makes it all so interesting, to me anyway, how others conceptualize the inevitable. That is the boss fight in ME3, organics changing nature to suit survival. The oldest battle known.

Yes, and solving a problem with a weapon works in this battle.

[The Heretic of Time]

Eryri wrote...

Perhaps because I believe ME deserves a better ending than the one it got, and IT is about the only way I can see one happening. One where we see our war assets in action - hordes of Rachni swarming over Destroyers. An epic Harbinger boss fight followed by a crew and LI reunion.

Except all of that could still be implemented in ME3 through DLC, so if that's the only reason why you believe in IT, I say it's pretty pointless. You don't need IT to implement all that into ME3.

[Eryri]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Perhaps because I believe ME deserves a better ending than the one it got, and IT is about the only way I can see one happening. One where we see our war assets in action - hordes of Rachni swarming over Destroyers. An epic Harbinger boss fight followed by a crew and LI reunion.

Except all of that could still be implemented in ME3 through DLC, so if that's the only reason why you believe in IT, I say it's pretty pointless. You don't need IT to implement all that into ME3.

Yeah, but it would have to change the actual endings. It doesn't matter how good mid-game dlc is. I'd still be playing as a dead Shepard walking, which I find pretty depressing tbh. Something like Puzzle theory, leading to a conventional victory following Refuse would be OK with me, but then I'd think all the weirdness with the teleporting kid and the dreams would be a wasted opportunity in that case. 

Besides, personally I like the thought of Harbinger capriciously playing with Shepard's mind. It restores the Reaper's God-like aura. The idea that they're not only overwhelmingly powerful physically, but also Machievellian manipulators, who can twist your mind to breaking point just because they can.

Modifié par Eryri, 21 novembre 2012 - 09:28 .

[ElSuperGecko]

Heretic_I think your version of the IT makes the most sense. The regular IT is just way too far-fetched in my opinion. The idea that ONLY the conversation with the Catalyst is a "dream" is much less far-fetched.

Thanks - I am really only trying to make sense of what we see at the end of the game to be honest.  Having been a huge fan of ME from Day 1, there's a lot things we see in ME3 which don't sit quite right, that hint things may not be quite what they seem.  I feel at times like the end of ME3 is a puzzle, and Bioware are just waiting for us to work out the answer.  I remember when the ending furore first started and we saw comments from the developers saying things like "I wish I could discuss this with you, but I can't say anything just yet"...

Maybe sometime soon they will.

However, it wouldn't change a goddamn thing though. Whether the Catalyst scene is in some kind of matrix or in real-space, it doesn't matter, the endings will still be the same.

Yep.  Which would  obviously bring us on to the next order of business, and another great big can of worms... how to actually interpret the endings! 

[Wayning_Star]

masster blaster wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

One of the reasons I don't accept the usual IT interpretation of everything after Harbinger's blast and the beam to the Citadel being an indoctrination attempt is because that would mean the "quite the view" scene with Anderson didn't actually happen.  And it's probably the best and most emotionally engaging part of the ending.

However, I'm *convinced* there's something fishy about the Catalyst scene.  Too much of what the Catalyst tells us is either contrary to what we already know from the series or is simply not explained.  The way I see it, Shepard is onboard the Citadel, TIM's attempt to stop Shepard failed, the Crucible is docking... and the Reapers are powerless to stop Shepard at that point - EXCEPT by directly attacking Shepard's mind.  Indoctrination's the only weapon they have left which could stop him in time.

Unless of course the Crucible isn't what they think it is.

the catalyst doesn't need a weapon, as Shep cannot 'stop' anything.  Shep can only make one choice. Thats what makes it all so interesting, to me anyway, how others conceptualize the inevitable. That is the boss fight in ME3, organics changing nature to suit survival. The oldest battle known.

Yes, and solving a problem with a weapon works in this battle.

It does seem to be that way, but it also seems like a dream, but then what is winning, in any event? The catalyst cannot lose, it has nothing to gain by winning. Only an organic concept, winning/losing. The catalyst isn't alive, it's only an intelligence, function unknown. Even with the endgame,there is no answers to the universe. Only an idea that synthetic and organic life must figure out a way they can survive. The keyword there is "they". 

One thing is certain, humans have the darndest time agreeing on anything, what with all the competition and winning'n such..lol

[Wayning_Star]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Heretic_I think your version of the IT makes the most sense. The regular IT is just way too far-fetched in my opinion. The idea that ONLY the conversation with the Catalyst is a "dream" is much less far-fetched.

Thanks - I am really only trying to make sense of what we see at the end of the game to be honest.  Having been a huge fan of ME from Day 1, there's a lot things we see in ME3 which don't sit quite right, that hint things may not be quite what they seem.  I feel at times like the end of ME3 is a puzzle, and Bioware are just waiting for us to work out the answer.  I remember when the ending furore first started and we saw comments from the developers saying things like "I wish I could discuss this with you, but I can't say anything just yet"...

Maybe sometime soon they will.

However, it wouldn't change a goddamn thing though. Whether the Catalyst scene is in some kind of matrix or in real-space, it doesn't matter, the endings will still be the same.

Yep.  Which would  obviously bring us on to the next order of business, and another great big can of worms... how to actually interpret the endings! 

Probably what's got into BiowarEa, the fact it's not interpretation, so much as canon. They don't want to accept responsibility for thier own invention. Not unlike the humans/organics in the MEU...

[Rifneno]

Wayning_Star wrote...

It does seem to be that way, but it also seems like a dream, but then what is winning, in any event? The catalyst cannot lose, it has nothing to gain by winning. Only an organic concept, winning/losing. The catalyst isn't alive, it's only an intelligence, function unknown. Even with the endgame,there is no answers to the universe. Only an idea that synthetic and organic life must figure out a way they can survive. The keyword there is "they". 

One thing is certain, humans have the darndest time agreeing on anything, what with all the competition and winning'n such..lol

What.  How is winning and losing "an organic concept"?

[Wayning_Star]

Eryri wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Perhaps because I believe ME deserves a better ending than the one it got, and IT is about the only way I can see one happening. One where we see our war assets in action - hordes of Rachni swarming over Destroyers. An epic Harbinger boss fight followed by a crew and LI reunion.

Except all of that could still be implemented in ME3 through DLC, so if that's the only reason why you believe in IT, I say it's pretty pointless. You don't need IT to implement all that into ME3.

Yeah, but it would have to change the actual endings. It doesn't matter how good mid-game dlc is. I'd still be playing as a dead Shepard walking, which I find pretty depressing tbh. Something like Puzzle theory would be OK with me, but then I'd think all the weirdness with the kid would be a wasted opportunity in that case. 

Besides, personally I like the thought of Harbinger capriciously playing with Shepard's mind. It restores the Reaper's God-like aura. The thought that they're not only overwhelmingly powerful physically, but also Machievellian manipulators who can twist your mind to breaking point just because they can.

I leave all that up to the engineers of the crucible and it's pesky choice menu...

[Wayning_Star]

Rifneno wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

It does seem to be that way, but it also seems like a dream, but then what is winning, in any event? The catalyst cannot lose, it has nothing to gain by winning. Only an organic concept, winning/losing. The catalyst isn't alive, it's only an intelligence, function unknown. Even with the endgame,there is no answers to the universe. Only an idea that synthetic and organic life must figure out a way they can survive. The keyword there is "they". 

One thing is certain, humans have the darndest time agreeing on anything, what with all the competition and winning'n such..lol

What.  How is winning and losing "an organic concept"?

how is it not, would probably be a better question...

[Eryri]

Wayning_Star wrote...

I leave all that up to the engineers of the crucible and it's pesky choice menu...

 Yeah, It's not the most user friendly interface is it? 

[spotlessvoid]

EDI,Geth,Reapers...."It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game"
Yes, I couldn't imagine an organic saying these words, but it just seems natural coming from a synthetic.

[Wayning_Star]

Eryri wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I leave all that up to the engineers of the crucible and it's pesky choice menu...

 Yeah, It's not the most user friendly interface is it? 

Maybe we could reprogram some Keepers to go fix it right quick!! They're handy at that kind of stuff..unlike BiowarEa...