80611 réponses à ce sujet

[spotlessvoid]

And where do these people keep getting the idea that starchild is just some basic program running and has no ability to make independent decisions?

[Rifneno]

spotlessvoid wrote...

And where do these people keep getting the idea that starchild is just some basic program running and has no ability to make independent decisions?

Remember that literalist that insisted Starbinger was a shackled AI?

[Wayning_Star]

spotlessvoid wrote...

And where do these people keep getting the idea that starchild is just some basic program running and has no ability to make independent decisions?

What would make it decide to save all that DNA and intellect within reapership hulls?

[Wayning_Star]

Rifneno wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

And where do these people keep getting the idea that starchild is just some basic program running and has no ability to make independent decisions?

Remember that literalist that insisted Starbinger was a shackled AI?

Shackled by it's programming and experiment, shackled by the crucible by someone else? Got any clue as to who might that be?

[spotlessvoid]

Starchild:
Not shackled enough to prevent it from harvesting Leviathan, creating Reapers, Citadel, Mass Relays, and harvesting organic races, but not allowed to indoctrinate Shepard.

[Restrider]

Wayning_Star wrote...


but, it all leads back to synthesis as the story requires a 'cure' for the cycle. Destroy doesn't go that far, as the creation of synthetic life, apparently, triggers a competition with organic existence. For organics to even competitively exist in the MEU, technology holds that key. Without advanced Ai, the MEU organic survival as noted in their expansion, would be limited. Logic dictates that synthesis is inevitable, so.. why wait?

We end up there anyway, as stated within the game, not only by the catalyst, but by the very nature of existence within the MEU. By taking advantage of left overs to advance within that structured enviornment, proposed by the catalyst, who, apparently, via the Leviathan obtains the tech needed to create it's experiment. IT undermines the experiment the catalyst starts, well, the Levithan starts, via the catalyst.

Indoctrination evokes a kind of hero thing with Shep over coming the influence, but still, it seem counter productive for the catalyst to frustrate it's own experiment with another control. If Shep were indoctrinated, there would be NO experiment, even it Shep were to overcome the indoctrination. That would leave destroy, and that would upend the experiment. The catalyst wouldn't, logically, invoke a control agent into an experiment the ruins the results. It would have to start over from scratch.

just say'n

First of all, this would need the Guardian to be honest about everything it says. If - and only if - we assume that, Synthesis is still ethically questionable. If - and only if - Synthesis is inevitable, then why not let organics reach it on their own pace and with their consent?
I think the great question here (in a literal ending) is the question of self-determination. Of course many Synthesis supporters argue that Destroy would be genocide, but the Geth and EDI have stated that they are not going to compromise with the Reapers and risk non-functionality. Furthermore all Geth programs are able to control platforms, which are also able to engage in battle. Thus there are no civillian casualties in Destroy since there are no civillian Geth. It's comparable to Hackett's strategy to save two fleets sacrificing the second fleet in the beginning of ME3.
Control on the other hand has the problem of "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely".
And keep in mind that what I've said is just in a literal POV.

[Wayning_Star]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Starchild:
Not shackled enough to prevent it from harvesting Leviathan, creating Reapers, Citadel, Mass Relays, and harvesting organic races(pre crucible and according to it's programming via the Leviathan), but not allowed to indoctrinate Shepard.(post crucible,no longer in experiment/outside parimiters/alternate experiment control/radical)

[spotlessvoid]

Wayning_Star wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Starchild:
Not shackled enough to prevent it from harvesting Leviathan, creating Reapers, Citadel, Mass Relays, and harvesting organic races(pre crucible and according to it's programming via the Leviathan), but not allowed to indoctrinate Shepard.(post crucible,no longer in experiment/outside parimiters/alternate experiment control/radical)

If you're going to misquote me, make it clear. I don't want anyone thinking I said something that dumb.

[CmdrShep80]

Restrider wrote...

Just a little remark:
People who are sure of something 100% are usually indoctrinated in real life. Such statements are actually signs of a fundamentalistic point of view and in result arguing with people who are sure about something 100% is futile.

i 100% agree

Listen to yourself...You're...Indoctrinated!

[Wayning_Star]

Restrider wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...


but, it all leads back to synthesis as the story requires a 'cure' for the cycle. Destroy doesn't go that far, as the creation of synthetic life, apparently, triggers a competition with organic existence. For organics to even competitively exist in the MEU, technology holds that key. Without advanced Ai, the MEU organic survival as noted in their expansion, would be limited. Logic dictates that synthesis is inevitable, so.. why wait?

We end up there anyway, as stated within the game, not only by the catalyst, but by the very nature of existence within the MEU. By taking advantage of left overs to advance within that structured enviornment, proposed by the catalyst, who, apparently, via the Leviathan obtains the tech needed to create it's experiment. IT undermines the experiment the catalyst starts, well, the Levithan starts, via the catalyst.

Indoctrination evokes a kind of hero thing with Shep over coming the influence, but still, it seem counter productive for the catalyst to frustrate it's own experiment with another control. If Shep were indoctrinated, there would be NO experiment, even it Shep were to overcome the indoctrination. That would leave destroy, and that would upend the experiment. The catalyst wouldn't, logically, invoke a control agent into an experiment the ruins the results. It would have to start over from scratch.

just say'n

First of all, this would need the Guardian to be honest about everything it says. If - and only if - we assume that, Synthesis is still ethically questionable. If - and only if - Synthesis is inevitable, then why not let organics reach it on their own pace and with their consent?
I think the great question here (in a literal ending) is the question of self-determination. Of course many Synthesis supporters argue that Destroy would be genocide, but the Geth and EDI have stated that they are not going to compromise with the Reapers and risk non-functionality. Furthermore all Geth programs are able to control platforms, which are also able to engage in battle. Thus there are no civillian casualties in Destroy since there are no civillian Geth. It's comparable to Hackett's strategy to save two fleets sacrificing the second fleet in the beginning of ME3.
Control on the other hand has the problem of "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely".
And keep in mind that what I've said is just in a literal POV.

The catalyst doesn't need to be 'honest' it's programming insists on clarity of purpose, so 'lying' isn't logical or, like most organics would put it, wrong, per se.

Ethics in space of the universe is a concept that eludes the most talented futurists. There is no right or wrong in nature just cause and effect. Being is the catalyst, generally, the facilitator of the MEU, is a machine/program/intelligence. It doubtful if ethics are of value to it. In Sheps case, the choices left are insulated from ethical concerns in the comparison of wrongs being commited during the time it takes to envoke any choice. Shep doesn't have time to consider all the pitfalls, but really has little choice as to the actual 'decision' it's already made for him/her. The MEU puts the pressure on. Probably why the walk away option presented its self, opportunism and necessity of invention.

Self determination is what made the trap that befell the MEU. Organics were self determined to survive and they needed advance tech to do it, so they swiped the stuff the catalyst left lying around for them, so they survived to commit to the catalsyts' experiment, envisioned by the Leviathan. How to save thralls and live.

The catalyst has no need to lie, it's part of its core programming to be helpful, its how it does it becomes fuzzy logic. But that doesn't matter, as it's experiment controls the MEU,not Shep, who can only synthesis it's occupants, or walk away to let the continuing pattern burn it's self out. Take a long time tho.. a lot of organics would lose out as well as synthetics in the wait. Destroy is just more fire to that flame and control only limits it for a time, eventually, Reapershep would faze out, and the pattern would continue.

Organic competition with nature and it's nature to wear stuff out, is what caused for this trap. To compete with the nature of existence with technology is to be part of that technology. Or so the apparent equation goes.

[Wayning_Star]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Starchild:
Not shackled enough to prevent it from harvesting Leviathan, creating Reapers, Citadel, Mass Relays, and harvesting organic races(pre crucible and according to it's programming via the Leviathan), but not allowed to indoctrinate Shepard.(post crucible,no longer in experiment/outside parimiters/alternate experiment control/radical)

If you're going to misquote me, make it clear. I don't want anyone thinking I said something that dumb.

sorry, look inside the () to see the included information related to your original quote and how that relates.

[Restrider]

Wayning_Star wrote...

The catalyst doesn't need to be 'honest' it's programming insists on clarity of purpose, so 'lying' isn't logical or, like most organics would put it, wrong, per se.

Ethics in space of the universe is a concept that eludes the most talented futurists. There is no right or wrong in nature just cause and effect. Being is the catalyst, generally, the facilitator of the MEU, is a machine/program/intelligence. It doubtful if ethics are of value to it. In Sheps case, the choices left are insulated from ethical concerns in the comparison of wrongs being commited during the time it takes to envoke any choice. Shep doesn't have time to consider all the pitfalls, but really has little choice as to the actual 'decision' it's already made for him/her. The MEU puts the pressure on. Probably why the walk away option presented its self, opportunism and necessity of invention.

Self determination is what made the trap that befell the MEU. Organics were self determined to survive and they needed advance tech to do it, so they swiped the stuff the catalyst left lying around for them, so they survived to commit to the catalsyts' experiment, envisioned by the Leviathan. How to save thralls and live.

The catalyst has no need to lie, it's part of its core programming to be helpful, its how it does it becomes fuzzy logic. But that doesn't matter, as it's experiment controls the MEU,not Shep, who can only synthesis it's occupants, or walk away to let the continuing pattern burn it's self out. Take a long time tho.. a lot of organics would lose out as well as synthetics in the wait. Destroy is just more fire to that flame and control only limits it for a time, eventually, Reapershep would faze out, and the pattern would continue.

Organic competition with nature and it's nature to wear stuff out, is what caused for this trap. To compete with the nature of existence with technology is to be part of that technology. Or so the apparent equation goes.

So you assume the AI is incapable of lying? Even EDI is capable of lying, so is the AI in ME1 you can find behind the Emporium.
The Reapers on the other hand are not necessarily lying. They surely have another set of morals. But through ME1-3, we already know what Reapers associate with "preserving/ascending organics". They also use manipulation and deception to achieve their goals, both concepts that are not that different from outright lying.

Since ME2 we basically know that Reapers are not synthetics but synthetic-organic hybrids. The AI proclaims that its goal is to "establish a connection between synthetics and organics" and its solution were the Reapers. I am just not convinced that what the AI describes as a utopian solution (aka Synthesis) is what an organic would describe as a utopia. Harbinger has stated several times that he wants to ascend organics and we all know what he meant with that.
For all we know, the slides in Synthesis could all take place in a virtual reality, which would explain the weird circuitry and it would be compatible with Sovereign's "each a nation" speech.
Again, this is all in a literal POV.

[CmdrShep80]

Isn't the preserving organic races thing a lie unto itself as a way to get the populace to submit to reaperization?

[Rifneno]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Isn't the preserving organic races thing a lie unto itself as a way to get the populace to submit to reaperization?

I like this human!  He understands!

[CmdrShep80]

I think the leviathans forgot to include a crucial line of AI code that goes "don't harm your creators" though it's possible the Reapers contorted that line into we help you accend by storing old life into reaper form (therefore not harming creators).

Then again, it could be someone hacked the reaper AI and created the mess we're all in in this cycle

Modifié par CmdrShep80, 21 novembre 2012 - 10:33 .

[Dwailing]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

I think the leviathans forgot to include a crucial line of AI code that goes "don't harm your creators" though it's possible the Reapers contorted that line into we help you accend by storing old life into reaper form (therefore not harming creators).

Then again, it could be someone hacked the reaper AI and created the mess we're all in in this cycle

Huh, seems like you mentioned a part of my "Just Machines" Hypothesis.  Link in my sig!  *Shameless plug*

[Wayning_Star]

Restrider wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

The catalyst doesn't need to be 'honest' it's programming insists on clarity of purpose, so 'lying' isn't logical or, like most organics would put it, wrong, per se.

Ethics in space of the universe is a concept that eludes the most talented futurists. There is no right or wrong in nature just cause and effect. Being is the catalyst, generally, the facilitator of the MEU, is a machine/program/intelligence. It doubtful if ethics are of value to it. In Sheps case, the choices left are insulated from ethical concerns in the comparison of wrongs being commited during the time it takes to envoke any choice. Shep doesn't have time to consider all the pitfalls, but really has little choice as to the actual 'decision' it's already made for him/her. The MEU puts the pressure on. Probably why the walk away option presented its self, opportunism and necessity of invention.

Self determination is what made the trap that befell the MEU. Organics were self determined to survive and they needed advance tech to do it, so they swiped the stuff the catalyst left lying around for them, so they survived to commit to the catalsyts' experiment, envisioned by the Leviathan. How to save thralls and live.

The catalyst has no need to lie, it's part of its core programming to be helpful, its how it does it becomes fuzzy logic. But that doesn't matter, as it's experiment controls the MEU,not Shep, who can only synthesis it's occupants, or walk away to let the continuing pattern burn it's self out. Take a long time tho.. a lot of organics would lose out as well as synthetics in the wait. Destroy is just more fire to that flame and control only limits it for a time, eventually, Reapershep would faze out, and the pattern would continue.

Organic competition with nature and it's nature to wear stuff out, is what caused for this trap. To compete with the nature of existence with technology is to be part of that technology. Or so the apparent equation goes.

So you assume the AI is incapable of lying? Even EDI is capable of lying, so is the AI in ME1 you can find behind the Emporium.
The Reapers on the other hand are not necessarily lying. They surely have another set of morals. But through ME1-3, we already know what Reapers associate with "preserving/ascending organics". They also use manipulation and deception to achieve their goals, both concepts that are not that different from outright lying.

Since ME2 we basically know that Reapers are not synthetics but synthetic-organic hybrids. The AI proclaims that its goal is to "establish a connection between synthetics and organics" and its solution were the Reapers. I am just not convinced that what the AI describes as a utopian solution (aka Synthesis) is what an organic would describe as a utopia. Harbinger has stated several times that he wants to ascend organics and we all know what he meant with that.
For all we know, the slides in Synthesis could all take place in a virtual reality, which would explain the weird circuitry and it would be compatible with Sovereign's "each a nation" speech.
Again, this is all in a literal POV.

That's a ruse, Edi "lying" ,besides, Edi isn't anything like the catalyst, she is struggling with identity of a human female, in love with Joker. She's got a lot of work to do there... The reapers are not the catalyst either,they're tools of the catalyst and are organic in nature,as their contents provide for their ego/entity. Ultimately,they're controlled by the catalyst, prevented from free thinking, or taking any role other than permitted by the catalysts' experiment. Reapers don't really need to 'lie' per se, they inflict that notion on the organics who are more prone to it, let the ball roll, accomplish goals, set out by their boss, the catalyst.

You're close to it with that 'connection' issue, that's the hypothetical presented by the catalyst. Can they live together? How can this be accomplished and where and what to do to 'make it so', or find out if. Synthsis isn't a utopian anything, it's a common denominator. Edi got all misted up over it, but still, its just another change for the MEU to absorb. For the better? Who knows the future? But an end to the cycle, probably, until some other transient concept considers existence would be better without the apex races.. ie strife through competition in existence.

As ascention goes, and the reapership espousing it. I've figured they simply don't understand the principals of it, they don't care about it either. Their prime directive is harvest and anything that makes that eventual. [metagamed: I've always been of the impression that the bravado stuff coming from reaper ilk to be kind of a cheap thrill/tacky way of intimidation by them and infuse the story with indomintable enemy types. (ie, writers cramp) Whats a battle intensive story without them.] I'm mystified by the "nations, independent" statements tho, makes for the idea they're individuals, worth the effort for Shep to help/release,etc. ?


I'm curious, what is with the 'litteral POV' comments for? Are thos a disclaimer of some kind?

[CmdrShep80]

Rifneno wrote...

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Isn't the preserving organic races thing a lie unto itself as a way to get the populace to submit to reaperization?

I like this human!  He understands!

LOL I think. Basically because we've been shown machines that can lie, the reapers are machines too. 

Plus in ME there's a big difference between AI and VI:

An artificial intelligence is a self-aware computing system capable of learning and independent decision making. Creation of conscious AI requires adaptive code, a slow, expensive education, and a specialized quantum computer called a "blue box".An AI cannot be transmitted across a communication channel or computer network. Without its blue box, an AI is no more than data files. Loading these files into a new blue box will create a new personality, as variations in the quantum hardware and runtime results create unpredictable variations.

A virtual intelligence is an advanced form of user interface software. VIs use a variety of methods to simulate natural conversation, including an audio interface and an avatar personality to interact with. Although a VI can provide a convincing emulation of sentience, they are not self-aware, nor can they learn or take independent action.VIs are used as operating systems on commercial and home computers. Menial VI "agents" are also available. Agents are compact and specialized. Some serve as personal secretaries, filtering calls and scheduling meetings based on user-defined priorities. Others are advanced search engines, propagating themselves across the extranet to collate user-requested data.

In the words of Star Trek from Memory Alpha:

Data once told Timothy that androids do not lie; however, Data himself was very capable of lying. Data once lied to the entire crew of the USS Enterprise[/i] regarding an incident where thePaxans erased the crew's memory (except for Data) due to axenophobic fear bordering on the extreme. Data also once lied to an entire bar full of patrons in an effort to make Ro Laren appear as a Maquis sympathizer as part of an elaborate plan to infiltrate a local resistance cell. In both of these cases however, Data was acting under direct orders and not by his own design. Data also lied to Samuel Clemens about the purpose of a machine he was building when displaced in time, most likely in accordance with Starfleet's temporal displacement policy. (TNG: "Hero Worship", "Clues", "Preemptive Strike", "Time's Arrow, Part II")

EDIT - phone can't post spaces for some odd reason - fixed

Modifié par CmdrShep80, 21 novembre 2012 - 10:46 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Rifneno wrote...

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Isn't the preserving organic races thing a lie unto itself as a way to get the populace to submit to reaperization?

I like this human!  He understands!

It becomes even more amusing once one remembers that the Catalyst says it preserves all Organic and Synthetic species...which is why upgrades the Geth so they can wipe out the Quarians completely...wait what

In short he is lying when he claims they preserve all species. Most likely they simply grab what is viable for ascension into reaper from and vaporize the rest <_<

Though the Geth /Quarian event fits perefctly with what Harbinger has to say regarding the Geth: "Geth. An annoyance." Yep uncle Harbinger is so gonna preserve the annoyance.

So who should we believe, The Reaper who has been taunting us, claiming our mind will be his and whose motives seem to align perfectly with the first Reaper we met (Sovereign) as well as the actual events we see?

Or the Catalyst kid who claims to perserve all Organic and Synthetic life while systematcily wiping out an entire species? Oh sorry, two species, the Rahcni only survived Reaper intevrention due to pure luck.

[Wayning_Star]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Isn't the preserving organic races thing a lie unto itself as a way to get the populace to submit to reaperization?

whats to be gained for the reapers to reap another cycle but more reapers to save more population from the chaos invoked by the creation of sentient/sapient competitive synthetic life forms. Maybe they're worried that eventually organics will evolve a better catalyst program?

No, it's not a lie, the catalyst believes it to be fact/data, that it's preserving life via the harvest. Apparently, the Leviathan concur, as stated as such to Shep in the DLC...that the catalyst was fulfilling it's designed purpose?!?

[CmdrShep80]

Yep - so if the creators (the leviathans) tell the AI - go and solve this crisis by any means necessary, except don't harm your creators, and use whatever means that will achieve your objectives

It gives the AI the ability to harvest any of the leviathans (except for the creators which I'm going to go out on a limb and say the creators are the only Leviathans left and we met some of them), it gives the AI the ability to lie to get the job done if necessary, as well as a host of other skills

[Wayning_Star]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Isn't the preserving organic races thing a lie unto itself as a way to get the populace to submit to reaperization?

I like this human!  He understands!

It becomes even more amusing once one remembers that the Catalyst says it preserves all Organic and Synthetic species...which is why upgrades the Geth so they can wipe out the Quarians completely...wait what

In short he is lying when he claims they preserve all species. Most likely they simply grab what is viable for ascension into reaper from and vaporize the rest <_<

Though the Geth /Quarian event fits perefctly with what Harbinger has to say regarding the Geth: "Geth. An annoyance." Yep uncle Harbinger is so gonna preserve the annoyance.

So who should we believe, The Reaper who has been taunting us, claiming our mind will be his and whose motives seem to align perfectly with the first Reaper we met (Sovereign) as well as the actual events we see?

Or the Catalyst kid who claims to perserve all Organic and Synthetic life while systematcily wiping out an entire species? Oh sorry, two species, the Rahcni only survived Reaper intevrention due to pure luck.

You guys are including what the reapers do in their job description as being 'exactly' what is in the catalysts' job description. They are different entities entirely.  The catalyst doesn't "wipe out" it continues the harvest. They're not saving all that DNA and stuff just "because"... Are they?!?

[CmdrShep80]

Wayning_Star wrote...

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Isn't the preserving organic races thing a lie unto itself as a way to get the populace to submit to reaperization?

whats to be gained for the reapers to reap another cycle but more reapers to save more population from the chaos invoked by the creation of sentient/sapient competitive synthetic life forms. Maybe they're worried that eventually organics will evolve a better catalyst program?

No, it's not a lie, the catalyst believes it to be fact/data, that it's preserving life via the harvest. Apparently, the Leviathan concur, as stated as such to Shep in the DLC...that the catalyst was fulfilling it's designed purpose?!?

It is fufilling it's designed purpose, that's why to the AI it is perfectly acceptable (and maybe even moral) to tell people a line such as that because it has an element of truth.  In the paraphrased words of bleeding - suck out the brains and use it for building reapers.  The brain's DNA is still available, just not the way we know it.  The Leviathans agreed because well, that was the purpose they designed it for, just they didn't believe it would result in what we see.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Wayning_Star wrote...

That's a ruse, Edi "lying" ,besides, Edi isn't anything like the catalyst, she is struggling with identity of a human female, in love with Joker. She's got a lot of work to do there... The reapers are not the catalyst either,they're tools of the catalyst and are organic in nature,as their contents provide for their ego/entity. Ultimately,they're controlled by the catalyst, prevented from free thinking, or taking any role other than permitted by the catalysts' experiment. Reapers don't really need to 'lie' per se, they inflict that notion on the organics who are more prone to it, let the ball roll, accomplish goals, set out by their boss, the catalyst.

You're close to it with that 'connection' issue, that's the hypothetical presented by the catalyst. Can they live together? How can this be accomplished and where and what to do to 'make it so', or find out if. Synthsis isn't a utopian anything, it's a common denominator. Edi got all misted up over it, but still, its just another change for the MEU to absorb. For the better? Who knows the future? But an end to the cycle, probably, until some other transient concept considers existence would be better without the apex races.. ie strife through competition in existence.

As ascention goes, and the reapership espousing it. I've figured they simply don't understand the principals of it, they don't care about it either. Their prime directive is harvest and anything that makes that eventual. [metagamed: I've always been of the impression that the bravado stuff coming from reaper ilk to be kind of a cheap thrill/tacky way of intimidation by them and infuse the story with indomintable enemy types. (ie, writers cramp) Whats a battle intensive story without them.] I'm mystified by the "nations, independent" statements tho, makes for the idea they're individuals, worth the effort for Shep to help/release,etc. ?

I'm curious, what is with the 'litteral POV' comments for? Are thos a disclaimer of some kind?

Thatb is one of the main problems with the Catalyst, he destroys the Reapers as a threat, turning them into nothing but pawns. Both Harbinger and Sovereign show no signs of beeing controlled by someone else, if anything they are both Masterminds pulling the strings of others. Hell Sovereign even delivers the aforementioned "Independent" line.

Also Harbinger only declares every single species beyond humans unfit for Ascension during the Proto reaper battle (the quote regarding each species plays depending on your squadmate.)

Also read above, the Catalyst outright lies to you in what its goal is.

And the "each a nation" is supposed to be taken quite litterally as Legion explains. Nazara (Sovereign) contacted the Geth prior to Mass Effect 1 and they touched its mind for a moment sensing something similar to their own consensus yet also different (its was Organic and Synthetic, not just Synthetic)

Finally the Catalyst should if its goald and programming is indeed what it claims stop you if you pick Control or Destroy (especially Destroy) since those go against its basic programming. If the solution is not permanent (and in teh case of Control it is ot even solution beyond Shepard acting as Chief police officer of the galaxy) then the Catalyst should not allow it since it was designed to find a permanent solution to the Synthetic killing organic problem.

And here is the kicker, the Catalyst is fully able to stop Shepard as it demonstrates by shutting down the Crucible in the Refuse ending. It is going against the progrmaming it claims to have.

[Restrider]

Wayning_Star wrote...



I'm curious, what is with the 'litteral POV' comments for? Are thos a disclaimer of some kind?

It's a disclaimer in a sense that in this thread, sometimes people discuss certain concepts of the endings in a literal way (like Synthesis being life stored in a virtual reality for instance). Occasionally someone in this thread could quote you and start to argue that Synthesis in IT is just being indoctrinated.
Well, it is a way to avoid confusion and misunderstanding. Personally I think the classic Indoctrination Theory holds a lot of merits, but I do not discard Waking Nightmare Theory and/or some type of Deception Theory. WNT is self-explanatory and DT is what Heretic_Hanar thinks is plausibly in some way - though he still does not really like the concept of it.
Though I assume IT is more reasonable than other theories or the literal POV, it's usually the case I (and others in this thread) discuss different interpretations. And - as said earlier - it is easy to get confused once in a while.

To the rest of your post:
You assume that the AI is the leader of the Reapers, who are shackled in their goals. I don't really like that concept, but let's assume that's the case. Then explain to me why the AI resides on the Citadel, which was built after the first Reaper - Harbinger - was created and why the AI did not act in ME1? Is it incapable of to take control of the Citadel? But on the other hand, it is able to use systems such a magical elevators and ramps? Furthermore it is able to control the Crucible beam?
I know that you can explain the latter questions with the assumption that the decision chamber is not to be taken literal, but why the inaction in ME1?
Wouldn't it be more logical to merge with the most powerful platform available? This would be Harbinger after the first harvest...

And I still think that an entity that is capable of deception and manipulation is also able to lie - be it outright or through omission.