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[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Isn't the preserving organic races thing a lie unto itself as a way to get the populace to submit to reaperization?

I like this human!  He understands!

It becomes even more amusing once one remembers that the Catalyst says it preserves all Organic and Synthetic species...which is why upgrades the Geth so they can wipe out the Quarians completely...wait what

In short he is lying when he claims they preserve all species. Most likely they simply grab what is viable for ascension into reaper from and vaporize the rest <_<

Though the Geth /Quarian event fits perefctly with what Harbinger has to say regarding the Geth: "Geth. An annoyance." Yep uncle Harbinger is so gonna preserve the annoyance.

So who should we believe, The Reaper who has been taunting us, claiming our mind will be his and whose motives seem to align perfectly with the first Reaper we met (Sovereign) as well as the actual events we see?

Or the Catalyst kid who claims to perserve all Organic and Synthetic life while systematcily wiping out an entire species? Oh sorry, two species, the Rahcni only survived Reaper intevrention due to pure luck.

You guys are including what the reapers do in their job description as being 'exactly' what is in the catalysts' job description. They are different entities entirely.  The catalyst doesn't "wipe out" it continues the harvest. They're not saving all that DNA and stuff just "because"... Are they?!?

Here is a few direct quotes from the catalyst: "We harvest them, storing the old life in Reaper form." , "We preserve ALL Organic and Synthetic life."

Also you cannot claim the Catalyst controls the reapers like puppets and then turn around and say they have different job describtions. According to the Catalyst the Reapers are an extension of his will and created specifically to fullfill his programming.

The moment a Reaper is not following his goals and programming, the Catalyst is lying.

[ElSuperGecko]

Wayning_Star wrote...
What would make it decide to save all that DNA and intellect within reapership hulls?

Exactly what part of the Prothean's intellect did it save, again?

"No glands, replaced by tech. No digestive system, replaced by tech.  No soul, replaced by tech..."

Wayning_Star wrote...
The catalyst doesn't need to be 'honest' it's programming insists on clarity of purpose, so 'lying' isn't logical or, like most organics would put it, wrong, per se.

This argument again?

Even is we assume (...you know the saying) that the Catalyst doesn't have it's own agenda (it does), and it isn't trying to influence Shepard's decision (it is), there's no reason to trust it, or accept it's logic, assertations and suggestions.

If we believe everything the Catalyst tells us, then it's responsible for creating the Reapers and the cycle of destruction.  We clearly don't agree with it's idea that the cycle of destruction is necessary or logical, and we clearly don't agree with it's idea that "preserving" (again, what exactly was preserved of the Protheans?) organic species in Reaper form prevents some kind of inevitable conflict.

the vast majority of the conflicts we're involved in in the Mass Effect series are a direct result of the Reapers, and therefore the Catalyst itself.  Rachni wars, Geth Heretics, Collectors, the Reapers themselves...

The Catalyst may very well be perfectly truthful in everything it says.  I couldn't care less.  I disagree with it's logic, it's assumptions, it's conclusions and DEFINITELY it's solutions.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 21 novembre 2012 - 11:02 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Restrider wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...



I'm curious, what is with the 'litteral POV' comments for? Are thos a disclaimer of some kind?

It's a disclaimer in a sense that in this thread, sometimes people discuss certain concepts of the endings in a literal way (like Synthesis being life stored in a virtual reality for instance). Occasionally someone in this thread could quote you and start to argue that Synthesis in IT is just being indoctrinated.
Well, it is a way to avoid confusion and misunderstanding. Personally I think the classic Indoctrination Theory holds a lot of merits, but I do not discard Waking Nightmare Theory and/or some type of Deception Theory. WNT is self-explanatory and DT is what Heretic_Hanar thinks is plausibly in some way - though he still does not really like the concept of it.
Though I assume IT is more reasonable than other theories or the literal POV, it's usually the case I (and others in this thread) discuss different interpretations. And - as said earlier - it is easy to get confused once in a while.

To the rest of your post:
You assume that the AI is the leader of the Reapers, who are shackled in their goals. I don't really like that concept, but let's assume that's the case. Then explain to me why the AI resides on the Citadel, which was built after the first Reaper - Harbinger - was created and why the AI did not act in ME1? Is it incapable of to take control of the Citadel? But on the other hand, it is able to use systems such a magical elevators and ramps? Furthermore it is able to control the Crucible beam?
I know that you can explain the latter questions with the assumption that the decision chamber is not to be taken literal, but why the inaction in ME1?
Wouldn't it be more logical to merge with the most powerful platform available? This would be Harbinger after the first harvest...

And I still think that an entity that is capable of deception and manipulation is also able to lie - be it outright or through omission.

Adn as I said it does lie, claiming to preserve all organic and Synthetic life while at the same time systematically wiping out the Geth / Quarians and the Rachni. oh and speculation goes taht the Protheans dident become a reaper either, that is three races which breaks with its goal of "storing the old life in Reaper form" and "preserving all Organic and Synthetic life."

Also it claims to "leave the younger races alone" but happily turns the Harvesters (which are at best semi intelligent) into shock troops.

[Restrider]

Either the Catalyst control the Reapers and thus Reaper logic (ascending of organics etc.) is Catalyst logic, or the Catalyst is not controlling the Reapers.
You can't say that the Catalyst controls the Reapers, but has not the same set of morals/logic.

[Dwailing]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Here is a few direct quotes from the catalyst: "We harvest them, storing the old life in Reaper form." , "We preserve ALL Organic and Synthetic life."

Brat is lying on both accounts when you look at the protheans.  They didn't store the protheans in Reaper form, and they most CERTAINLY did not preserve them in any proper way.  To claim that the collectors are preserved protheans is like claiming that Banshees are preserved asari.  It doesn't work.

[CmdrShep80]

By the way to add:

Notable AIs - all of these are self aware computing systems capable of learning and independent decision making (interesting how the catalyst and reapers are in two catagories):

• Catalyst
• EDI
• "Eliza" - An experimental Alliance AI created at Gagarin Station
• Geth
• Legion
• Reapers
• "UDI" - A Cerberus AI aboard the Barn space station
• Unnamed AI on the Citadel
  
   Notable VIs - all of these can malfunction via software errors or have their data tampered via malicious tampering causing the VIs to fail to carry out its intended function or to interpret its duties in a way that leads to the VI becoming dangerous.
   
  
  
  
  Avina - A general information VI on the Citadel
  Mira - A VI at the Peak 15 facility on Noveria
  ExoGeni VI - A VI at the ExoGeni facility on Feros
  Geth VI - A VI created by the geth to study the Reapers
  Hannibal - A rogue Systems Alliance VI that took over a training ground on Luna
  Overlord VI - A hybrid VI developed by Cerberus on Aite
  Info Drone ("Glyph") - The Shadow Broker's personal VI
  Vendetta - A Prothean VI stored in a beacon on Thessia
  Victory - A Prothean VI that oversaw a stasis pod facility on Eden Prime
  Vigil - A Prothean VI that oversaw the lab facility on Ilos

[/list]

[Wayning_Star]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Isn't the preserving organic races thing a lie unto itself as a way to get the populace to submit to reaperization?

whats to be gained for the reapers to reap another cycle but more reapers to save more population from the chaos invoked by the creation of sentient/sapient competitive synthetic life forms. Maybe they're worried that eventually organics will evolve a better catalyst program?

No, it's not a lie, the catalyst believes it to be fact/data, that it's preserving life via the harvest. Apparently, the Leviathan concur, as stated as such to Shep in the DLC...that the catalyst was fulfilling it's designed purpose?!?

It is fufilling it's designed purpose, that's why to the AI it is perfectly acceptable (and maybe even moral) to tell people a line such as that because it has an element of truth.  In the paraphrased words of bleeding - suck out the brains and use it for building reapers.  The brain's DNA is still available, just not the way we know it.  The Leviathans agreed because well, that was the purpose they designed it for, just they didn't believe it would result in what we see.

So, there is that missing bit of data of why they're saving the 'stuff' from harvest. The only logical conclusion from it is some sort of resuscitation, or reinactment. Otherwise the catalyst isn't preserving life, it's core programming is a lie and its malfunctioning, or was lied to/mis/disinformed like Hal in 2001SO... Some motivation must exist to find them being deceptive about their ends.  What would/could the catalyst/reaperships have to gain from harvest other than preservation? They harvest both organic and synthetic life forms as well. I find that most curious..

[Wayning_Star]

Restrider wrote...

Either the Catalyst control the Reapers and thus Reaper logic (ascending of organics etc.) is Catalyst logic, or the Catalyst is not controlling the Reapers.
You can't say that the Catalyst controls the Reapers, but has not the same set of morals/logic.

service dependent. What's good a reaper who couldn't reap without hands on management?

the catalyst priority is the experiment, the other stuff is for lower class systems to manage. Anything to do with the prime directive program of the catalyst is catalyst territory. So if and when any reapership goes outside those parimiters, the catalyst investigates and corrects that problem. Probably why the citadel ended up on earth..etc.

[Wayning_Star]

Dwailing wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Here is a few direct quotes from the catalyst: "We harvest them, storing the old life in Reaper form." , "We preserve ALL Organic and Synthetic life."

Brat is lying on both accounts when you look at the protheans.  They didn't store the protheans in Reaper form, and they most CERTAINLY did not preserve them in any proper way.  To claim that the collectors are preserved protheans is like claiming that Banshees are preserved asari.  It doesn't work.

Thats a new one on me, I didn't see anything about it/that anywhere? We only get to communicate with a few reaperships, and those are not fully explained as to who are within their given hulls as harvested?

[ElSuperGecko]

Wayning_Star wrote...
What would/could the catalyst/reaperships have to gain from harvest other than preservation? They harvest both organic and synthetic life forms as well. I find that most curious..

SELF-preservation and replenishing/increasing their own numbers?  A fairly simple motivation there, common amongst ALL concious beings..

They harvest advanced civilisations into Reaper form, thus increasing their own numbers.  Presumably they need to replenish their own power sources as well.

Are they biding their time, looking for a way to eventually move through the next galaxy, and beyond?

[Rifneno]

Wayning_Star wrote...

whats to be gained for the reapers to reap another cycle but more reapers to save more population from the chaos invoked by the creation of sentient/sapient competitive synthetic life forms. Maybe they're worried that eventually organics will evolve a better catalyst program?

No, it's not a lie, the catalyst believes it to be fact/data, that it's preserving life via the harvest. Apparently, the Leviathan concur, as stated as such to Shep in the DLC...that the catalyst was fulfilling it's designed purpose?!?

And yet, that explanation is only ever given to people they want to indoctrinate. The conversation with Sovereign in ME1 is the only time we've seen a Reaper speak to someone they didn't want to control. Hell, right after Paul Grayson convinces the Reapers that Kahlee Sanders is more valuable alive than dead, that's when they start spewing this same **** to her. Stupid organics are always easy to convince that these incredibly advanced alien megacomputers are another cliched story of machines making a really bad decision because they understand logic but not morals. It's a tired old tale we've heard since Isaac Asimov started telling it before any of us were born (probably). I don't think it's that simple and cliched. The geth understand right and wrong, I refuse to believe the Reapers don't grasp concepts that the geth can.

Wayning_Star wrote...

You guys are including what the reapers do in their job description as being 'exactly' what is in the catalysts' job description. They are different entities entirely. The catalyst doesn't "wipe out" it continues the harvest. They're not saving all that DNA and stuff just "because"... Are they?!?

I guess you missed how the Catalyst slips up and starts refering to the Reapers as "we".

I don't know why they're making people slurry. I just want to make them stop existing. "More likely they are driven by motives and goals that organics could not hope to understand. In the end, what does it matter? Your suvival depends on stopping them, not in understanding them." - Vigil

And are they saving that goop? We turned Sovereign's insides into the Citadel's outsides and after 2 years no one knew what it was. It would be a little difficult to miss a couple billion people's worth of pudding if it was really kept in there.

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Also Harbinger only declares every single species beyond humans unfit for Ascension during the Proto reaper battle (the quote regarding each species plays depending on your squadmate.)

Only time I would've liked to have had a batarian squadmate.

Batarian: Curse you! <dies>
Harbinger: Batarian. ... **** you.

Here is a few direct quotes from the catalyst: "We harvest them, storing the old life in Reaper form." , "We preserve ALL Organic and Synthetic life."

I think this is an important point that's never brought up. That was a massive change from the original. They said they would not change the endings, yet they changed his motivations from "we protect organics from synthetics by preserving organics" to "we preserve all forms of life because... look, just shut up and jump in the beam."

If they were only clarifying and not changing anything meaningful, than what's with that change? Was the Reapers' motivation not a major point? ... Unless, you know, that isn't their real motive.

[The Heretic of Time]

Rifneno wrote...

If they were only clarifying and not changing anything meaningful, than what's with that change? Was the Reapers' motivation not a major point? ... Unless, you know, that isn't their real motive.

Or... you know, they just makes shit up on the go, you know, like they have been doing ever since ME2.

Just my 2 cents.

[Rifneno]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

If they were only clarifying and not changing anything meaningful, than what's with that change? Was the Reapers' motivation not a major point? ... Unless, you know, that isn't their real motive.

Or... you know, they just makes shit up on the go, you know, like they have been doing ever since ME2.

Just my 2 cents.

Oh shut up.  Only people too dense and/or uneducated to understand the game go to the "bad riting lulz" well constantly like this.



Yeah, no planning whatsoever.

[spotlessvoid]

How can someone think the AI that conquered the Leviathan without a single Reapers help, created Harbinger, started the cycles to create more Reapers, created Mass Relays and Citadel, is all of a sudden this powerless tool that can't do anything more than be elevator man and tour guide in the decision chamber. That is as retarded as retarded gets.

[Rifneno]

spotlessvoid wrote...

How can someone think the AI that conquered the Leviathan without a single Reapers help, created Harbinger, started the cycles to create more Reapers, created Mass Relays and Citadel, is all of a sudden this powerless tool that can't do anything more than be elevator man and tour guide in the decision chamber. That is as retarded as retarded gets.

herr durr bad righting durr ohhhh shiny thing!

[The Heretic of Time]

Rifneno wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

If they were only clarifying and not changing anything meaningful, than what's with that change? Was the Reapers' motivation not a major point? ... Unless, you know, that isn't their real motive.

Or... you know, they just makes shit up on the go, you know, like they have been doing ever since ME2.

Just my 2 cents.

Oh shut up.  Only people too dense and/or uneducated to understand the game go to the "bad riting lulz" well constantly like this.

I did not say anything about bad writing. I'm just saying that BioWare was obviously not planning this trilogy ahead. That's not my assumption, that's common knowledge. Even the devs themselves admitted that.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 21 novembre 2012 - 11:52 .

[Krimzie]

spotlessvoid wrote...

How can someone think the AI that conquered the Leviathan without a single Reapers help, created Harbinger, started the cycles to create more Reapers, created Mass Relays and Citadel, is all of a sudden this powerless tool that can't do anything more than be elevator man and tour guide in the decision chamber..

This stumps me, too. I never got the impression that the Reaper Among the Reapers had no ulterior motive. I'm also always suspicious about the Prothean VI's explanation of the Catalyst: "At some point -- it's difficult to pinpoint when -- the Crucible plans were adapted to incorporate the use of the Catalyst."

Yeah. Wonder who inspired that adaptation. 

Modifié par Krimzie, 21 novembre 2012 - 11:51 .

[Dwailing]

Rifneno wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

How can someone think the AI that conquered the Leviathan without a single Reapers help, created Harbinger, started the cycles to create more Reapers, created Mass Relays and Citadel, is all of a sudden this powerless tool that can't do anything more than be elevator man and tour guide in the decision chamber. That is as retarded as retarded gets.

herr durr bad righting durr ohhhh shiny thing!

You know, it's kind of scary when I see you two together.  You have such complimentary personalities.

[CmdrShep80]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Here is a few direct quotes from the catalyst: "We harvest them, storing the old life in Reaper form." , "We preserve ALL Organic and Synthetic life."

Brat is lying on both accounts when you look at the protheans.  They didn't store the protheans in Reaper form, and they most CERTAINLY did not preserve them in any proper way.  To claim that the collectors are preserved protheans is like claiming that Banshees are preserved asari.  It doesn't work.

Thats a new one on me, I didn't see anything about it/that anywhere? We only get to communicate with a few reaperships, and those are not fully explained as to who are within their given hulls as harvested?

Let's see:
Husks: Everyone knows husks.  Stems from humans "preserved in Reaper form"

Cannibals: Cannibals are a combo between Batarians and Humans.  Stems from Bactarians "preserved in Reaper form" and leftover human parts

Turian Marauders:  Are predominately from Turians "preserved in Reaper form"

Brute: Brutes are a combo between Krogans and Turians.  Stems from Krogans "preserved in Reaper form" and leftover turian parts

Banshee: Are predominately Asaris and Ardat'Yakshis.  Stems from Asari "preserved in Reaper form"

Ravengers:  Are predominately Rachni warriors "preserved in Reaper form"

And what does the Reapers do with these?  Send them out, wave after wave to be destroyed by the likes of those the Reapers are trying to preseverve.  Yep, stored properly and probably even cataloged like this:  1,2,3,4,5,111000,101244,6346,564654645,756865856856.

[CmdrShep80]

Well, if we go with their approach, there might be an end to the war with the Reapers:

From Memory Alpha:

While the Klingons were not a religious people as such, they did believe that deities existed at one time. However, Klingon warriors supposedly slew their gods as they were considered to be more trouble than they were worth. (DS9: "Homefront")

EDIT - guess it didn't work out so well with the folks from a few cycles ago when the first Reaper was created

Modifié par CmdrShep80, 21 novembre 2012 - 11:56 .

[The Heretic of Time]

spotlessvoid wrote...

How can someone think the AI that conquered the Leviathan without a single Reapers help, created Harbinger, started the cycles to create more Reapers, created Mass Relays and Citadel, is all of a sudden this powerless tool that can't do anything more than be elevator man and tour guide in the decision chamber. That is as retarded as retarded gets.

I know, it baffles my mind too. BioWare writing is bad, but it certainly can't be THAT BAD, can it?

[masster blaster]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Here is a few direct quotes from the catalyst: "We harvest them, storing the old life in Reaper form." , "We preserve ALL Organic and Synthetic life."

Brat is lying on both accounts when you look at the protheans.  They didn't store the protheans in Reaper form, and they most CERTAINLY did not preserve them in any proper way.  To claim that the collectors are preserved protheans is like claiming that Banshees are preserved asari.  It doesn't work.

Thats a new one on me, I didn't see anything about it/that anywhere? We only get to communicate with a few reaperships, and those are not fully explained as to who are within their given hulls as harvested?

Let's see:
Husks: Everyone knows husks.  Stems from humans "preserved in Reaper form"

Cannibals: Cannibals are a combo between Batarians and Humans.  Stems from Bactarians "preserved in Reaper form" and leftover human parts

Turian Marauders:  Are predominately from Turians "preserved in Reaper form"

Brute: Brutes are a combo between Krogans and Turians.  Stems from Krogans "preserved in Reaper form" and leftover turian parts

Banshee: Are predominately Asaris and Ardat'Yakshis.  Stems from Asari "preserved in Reaper form"

Ravengers:  Are predominately Rachni warriors "preserved in Reaper form"

And what does the Reapers do with these?  Send them out, wave after wave to be destroyed by the likes of those the Reapers are trying to preseverve.  Yep, stored properly and probably even cataloged like this:  1,2,3,4,5,111000,101244,6346,564654645,756865856856.

Hey forgot about the Collectors, and now the new Reaper forces. The Adjuants.

Modifié par masster blaster, 21 novembre 2012 - 11:59 .

[masster blaster]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

How can someone think the AI that conquered the Leviathan without a single Reapers help, created Harbinger, started the cycles to create more Reapers, created Mass Relays and Citadel, is all of a sudden this powerless tool that can't do anything more than be elevator man and tour guide in the decision chamber. That is as retarded as retarded gets.

I know, it baffles my mind too. BioWare writing is bad, but it certainly can't be THAT BAD, can it?

If IT is not their plan. Right now it's debatable.


TOP!

Modifié par masster blaster, 22 novembre 2012 - 12:00 .

[spotlessvoid]

I like how "shackles" is just thrown around like it's just something you vaguely have. Or that shackles just means any set of instructions.