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[DoomsdayDevice]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

[...] This is what people don't get. For them it's either x or y.

I understood that, and I disagree with it. As I said before, that's what I was thinking in the early days of IT, but we've moved on from there now.

Which is a problem as the game still supports both views.
For example the stargazer scene. Why is it different in refuse but not for the 3 others? This would only make sense if they work the same way, which means Shepards demise and/or indoctrination is irrelevant in the end, but the choice to use the crucible is not. There is no way to "move on" but to ignore that.

Unless the stargazer scene is part of the illusion.

[ElSuperGecko]

All roads lead to indoctrination. From ME1 to ME3, the foreshadowing is there. The vast majority of storylines throughout the series can be related to the final decision.

ME1:

Eden Prime: The Prothean Beacon. A WARNING about the fate of the Protheans, the Reapers and "Synthesis", taking the form of a vision of organics and synthetics forcibly combined.

Noveria: The Rachni experiments. Attempting to "Control" an alien race (with disasterous consequences). Free the Rachni... or Destroy them?

Feros: The Thorian, and it's mind "Control" and conditioning of the colonists (again, with disasterous results). An introduction to Reaper indoctrination from Shiala.

Virmire: More background on Reaper indoctrination. An exposition from Wrex on the fate of his race, and how the Genophage was an attempt to "Control" the Krogan (with disasterous results). Saren's motives become clear, and the Reapers are revealed.

Ilos: The fate of the Protheans is revealed by Vigil, and the Reapers plan.

Cerberus side missions: Experiments by Cerberus attempting to "Control" alien races such as the Thresher Maws, Thorian Creepers, Geth and Rachnii...

Finale: Saren is clearly shown to be indoctrinated. His vision of the future "synthetic and organic intertwined, strengths of both, weaknesses of neither" eerily foreshadows Synthesis.

ME2:

Opening: Shepard is killed, but rebuilt through the use of technology.  A hybrid of man and machine?

Miranda: Parent attempts to "Control" her through manipulation of her DNA and conditioning, with disasterous results.

Jacob: Jacob's father "Controls" the crash survivors, in a particularly horrific manner.

Jack: Cerberus attempts to "Control" Jack, and other biotically gifted youngsters through conditioning and experimentation.

Legion: The split between the Heretics and the Geth is revealed to be a result of Reaper interference. Rewrite or Destroy?

Mordin and the Genophage: The entire genophage sub-plot deals with attempting to Control a free-thinking race, by genetic tampering and modification.

Overlord: Attempting to "Control" a synthetic race through experimentation and the input of an organic mind... with disasterous results...

Derelict Reaper: More exposition on Reaper indoctrination.

The Collectors: A cloned race, hybridised by the Reapers into a fusion of organic and synthetic parts. Soulless, mindless, and ultimately "Controlled" by Harbinger.

TIM: An obsession with "Controlling" Reaper technology, and using it for our our advancement...

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 22 novembre 2012 - 02:28 .

[MegumiAzusa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

[...] This is what people don't get. For them it's either x or y.

I understood that, and I disagree with it. As I said before, that's what I was thinking in the early days of IT, but we've moved on from there now.

Which is a problem as the game still supports both views.
For example the stargazer scene. Why is it different in refuse but not for the 3 others? This would only make sense if they work the same way, which means Shepards demise and/or indoctrination is irrelevant in the end, but the choice to use the crucible is not. There is no way to "move on" but to ignore that.

Unless the stargazer scene is part of the illusion.

Which is in turn making things up to conform to their mindset. In low EMS Shepard dies at the point the door of the Normandy opens which is supported by the namings of the files. Stargazer scene still playing even if you picked control.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Nice list ElSuper, here is a few more pointers:

ME1:

Feros: We see Geth worshipping what we know is a Reaper artifact and the squad questiosn what Geth would worship.. Later in ME2 we learn that these were the Heretic Geth. Known effect of Indoctrination, "Treating the Reapers with superstitious awe."

ME2:

Arival: Even more exposition on Indoctrination, Destory is the only option to slow down the Reapers.

[Dwailing]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

[...] This is what people don't get. For them it's either x or y.

I understood that, and I disagree with it. As I said before, that's what I was thinking in the early days of IT, but we've moved on from there now.

Which is a problem as the game still supports both views.
For example the stargazer scene. Why is it different in refuse but not for the 3 others? This would only make sense if they work the same way, which means Shepards demise and/or indoctrination is irrelevant in the end, but the choice to use the crucible is not. There is no way to "move on" but to ignore that.

Unless the stargazer scene is part of the illusion.

Which is in turn making things up to conform to their mindset. In low EMS Shepard dies at the point the door of the Normandy opens which is supported by the namings of the files. Stargazer scene still playing even if you picked control.

I kind of think the Stargazer scene isn't really part of the illusion, but also isn't really meant to be taken literally.  I'm rather partial to the idea that it was designed as a message to the players that we should be ready, because there's WAY more to come.

[MegumiAzusa]

Dwailing wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

[...] This is what people don't get. For them it's either x or y.

I understood that, and I disagree with it. As I said before, that's what I was thinking in the early days of IT, but we've moved on from there now.

Which is a problem as the game still supports both views.
For example the stargazer scene. Why is it different in refuse but not for the 3 others? This would only make sense if they work the same way, which means Shepards demise and/or indoctrination is irrelevant in the end, but the choice to use the crucible is not. There is no way to "move on" but to ignore that.

Unless the stargazer scene is part of the illusion.

Which is in turn making things up to conform to their mindset. In low EMS Shepard dies at the point the door of the Normandy opens which is supported by the namings of the files. Stargazer scene still playing even if you picked control.

I kind of think the Stargazer scene isn't really part of the illusion, but also isn't really meant to be taken literally.  I'm rather partial to the idea that it was designed as a message to the players that we should be ready, because there's WAY more to come.

And still the scene is different if you oped out. You are still ignoring stuff that doesn't fit your view and try to rationalize it.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 22 novembre 2012 - 02:27 .

[KyreneZA]

Rifneno wrote...

paxxton wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

can i have one of those while i work on my control theory to add to my synthesis theory?

ftw.

Control Theory? Now that's something I'd like to read.

How about... Control: Unilateral & Nefarious Theory?

...  What?  Why are you looking at me like that?

Heh. That acronym would be as bad as the one for the NASA Polar Operational Environmental Satellite program.

You could add... Synthesis: Hybrids Interfaced Theory?

[DoomsdayDevice]

Yeah, doing a new playthrough of ME3, and this time around I'm going to side with the Quarians.

Why? Because I really don't trust Legion using the Reaper code.

The only reason to let Legion use the Reaper code is because you want peace. You want both the Geth and the Quarians to live. And the only way to do that is by allowing Legion to use the Reaper code. I'm not buying it any more. If we get ME4 as a sequel, I wouldn't be surprised at all if that decision to let the Geth 'ascend' would turn out to be a mistake. It's exactly the same motive for choosing control or synthesis (you want everyone to live), and it's also exactly the same in the sense that you follow the path laid out by the Reapers.

Another thing that bothers me in the Geth consensus mission is how you can never truly get rid of the Reaper code. A small 'root' portion will always remain there. As if it can grow back to full size once you're gone. That always bugged me. At first I thought it was just a design oversight, but now I'm thinking they did it like that intentionally.

I've always believed that one could just play pure renegade or pure paragon and that both were always equally valid. The ending has totally changed my view on this. There are times when it is smarter to do the paragon thing (destroying collector base - as it is short sighted to want to study the human reaper), and there are times when it is better to do the renegade thing. And I think one of those times is when Legion wants to use Reaper code.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 22 novembre 2012 - 02:35 .

[ElSuperGecko]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Dwailing wrote...
I kind of think the Stargazer scene isn't really part of the illusion, but also isn't really meant to be taken literally.  I'm rather partial to the idea that it was designed as a message to the players that we should be ready, because there's WAY more to come.

And still the scene is different if you oped out. You are still ignoring stuff that doesn't fit your view and try to rationalize it.

Just to interject my thoughts on the Stargazer scene...

...it's really far too vague to give us any indication re. the merits of the endings at all.  We know absolutely nothing for sure about the figures in the epilogue, other than they know of a being known as "the Shepard".
 
How far in the future does the scene take place?  We don't know.
Are the figures human? We don't know.
How much of "the Shepard"'s story do the figures know?  We don't know.
How do they actually know about "the Shepard"'s story in the first place?  We don't know.
How advanced is their civilisation?  We don't know.

The only thing we know for sure about the epilogue is that it implies that "the Shepard"'s story isn't over yet, that there's more to tell.  And that could simply be a "buy the DLC" message, or a hint at something more.

[MegumiAzusa]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Dwailing wrote...
I kind of think the Stargazer scene isn't really part of the illusion, but also isn't really meant to be taken literally.  I'm rather partial to the idea that it was designed as a message to the players that we should be ready, because there's WAY more to come.

And still the scene is different if you oped out. You are still ignoring stuff that doesn't fit your view and try to rationalize it.

Just to interject my thoughts on the Stargazer scene...

...it's really far too vague to give us any indication re. the merits of the endings at all.  We know absolutely nothing for sure about the figures in the epilogue, other than they know of a being known as "the Shepard".
 
How far in the future does the scene take place?  We don't know.
Are the figures human? We don't know.
How much of "the Shepard"'s story do the figures know?  We don't know.
How do they actually know about "the Shepard"'s story in the first place?  We don't know.
How advanced is their civilisation?  We don't know.

The only thing we know for sure about the epilogue is that it implies that "the Shepard"'s story isn't over yet, that there's more to tell.  And that could simply be a "buy the DLC" message, or a hint at something more.

You are ignoring the opt out stargazer scene where most of your points are told directly.
Also the game files state that the original stargazer scene is 10k years in the future iirc. The opt out scene obviously has to be over 50k years in the future, or they just think they are ready. Which doesn't make much difference to what it tells you.
It is also implied they are human in the original, and it's clearly shown they are not in the opt out.

Still all these questions are irrelevant as we can see that they are always the same if Shep uses the Crucible.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 22 novembre 2012 - 02:46 .

[ElSuperGecko]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
Yeah, doing a new playthrough of ME3, and this time around I'm going to side with the Quarians.  Why? Because I really don't trust Legion using the Reaper code...

You're not the only one who's suspicious of the Geth.  And rightfully so, in my opinion.

They're presented as a tragic, wronged, sympathetic villain in ME3... and because of that, a lot of people seem to miss the "villain" part.

They are ADVERSARIES.  ANTAGONISTS.  They try to kill Shepard and assist the Reapers in EVERY GAME IN THE SERIES.  And they operate by CONSENSUS, so this isn't a decision made by individual Geth, it's a decision made by the SPECIES AS A WHOLE.

The more we learn about the Geth, the more we are supposed to feel sympathetic towards them, despite their actions throughout the series.  Stockholm syndrome, anyone?  Another form of indoctrination?  Viewing enemies as friends and allies?

[AresKeith]

That would have been the case with the Geth if they didn't use the Heretic part

[Leonia]

Or the geth are an example of how not all synthetics are bad, maybe. I'd rather side with them then the quarians any day.

[ElSuperGecko]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
You are ignoring the opt out stargazer scene where most of your points are told directly.

By opt out I'm assuming you mean refuse?  The fact that the "Refuse" scene is different is interesting, of course..

Also the game files state that the original stargazer scene is 10k years in the future iirc.

Mmm-hmm.  But it's not stated in the scene itself, is it?

The opt out scene obviously has to be over 50k years in the future, or they just think they are ready. Which doesn't make much difference to what it tells you.  It is also implied they are human in the original, and it's clearly shown they are not in the opt out.

Implied, yes.  You can headcanon that they're human, of course.  But... we don't know for sure, do we?

For all we know, in every single epilogue the Stargazer could simply be reciting something that was found in one of Liara's data caches in EVERY SINGLE scenario, not just the refuse one.

Still all these questions are irrelevant as we can see that they are always the same if Shep uses the Crucible.

Which would make the entire Stargazer scene irrelevant one way or another, as it tells you nothing about the implications of Shepard's choices.

[Restrider]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Nice list ElSuper, here is a few more pointers:

ME1:

Feros: We see Geth worshipping what we know is a Reaper artifact and the squad questiosn what Geth would worship.. Later in ME2 we learn that these were the Heretic Geth. Known effect of Indoctrination, "Treating the Reapers with superstitious awe."

ME2:

Arival: Even more exposition on Indoctrination, Destory is the only option to slow down the Reapers.

You should also add Benezia's fate.

[MegumiAzusa]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
You are ignoring the opt out stargazer scene where most of your points are told directly.

By opt out I'm assuming you mean refuse?  The fact that the "Refuse" scene is different is interesting, of course..

Also the game files state that the original stargazer scene is 10k years in the future iirc.

Mmm-hmm.  But it's not stated in the scene itself, is it?

The opt out scene obviously has to be over 50k years in the future, or they just think they are ready. Which doesn't make much difference to what it tells you.  It is also implied they are human in the original, and it's clearly shown they are not in the opt out.

Implied, yes.  You can headcanon that they're human, of course.  But... we don't know for sure, do we?

For all we know, in every single epilogue the Stargazer could simply be reciting something that was found in one of Liara's data caches in EVERY SINGLE scenario, not just the refuse one.

Still all these questions are irrelevant as we can see that they are always the same if Shep uses the Crucible.

Which would make the entire Stargazer scene irrelevant one way or another, as it tells you nothing about the implications of Shepard's choices.

It tells you clearly that using the Crucible is different from not using it, and that all the using options lead to the same result, which is only possible if the Crucible does indeed work.
It doesn't matter how much EMS you have when you opt out. The current cycle will be harvested. If you say Shep is indoctrinated in Control and Synthesis the current cycle would be harvested too, as nothing really changes, and even if then it would only change for worse. Still the scene is not the same.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 22 novembre 2012 - 03:06 .

[ElSuperGecko]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
It tells you clearly that using the Crucible is different from not using it, and that all the using options lead to the same result, which is only possible if the Crucible does indeed work.

False!  It's also possible to have all the options lead to the same result if the Crucible doesn't work at all. 

As stated, we don't know anything about the Stargazer, the child or the universe they live in, other than the fact that they apparently know about "the Shepard"'s story (even if some of the details have been lost in time), and they're not on Earth.

That's not enough information to take anything from the scene other than the fact the story isn't quite over...

[MegumiAzusa]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
It tells you clearly that using the Crucible is different from not using it, and that all the using options lead to the same result, which is only possible if the Crucible does indeed work.

False!  It's also possible to have all the options lead to the same result if the Crucible doesn't work at all. 

As stated, we don't know anything about the Stargazer, the child or the universe they live in, other than the fact that they apparently know about "the Shepard"'s story (even if some of the details have been lost in time), and they're not on Earth.

That's not enough information to take anything from the scene other than the fact the story isn't quite over...

As just edited:
It doesn't matter how much EMS you have when you opt out. The current cycle will be harvested. If you say Shep is indoctrinated in Control and Synthesis the current cycle would be harvested too, as nothing really changes, and even if then it would only change for worse. Still the scene is not the same. Saying otherwise is pure ignorance.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

AresKeith wrote...

That would have been the case with the Geth if they didn't use the Heretic part

Yeah without the Heretics I could understand mistrusting them more, but with the split up that there was it is not the case.

The Geth siding with the Reapers is something i find understandable given their species is beeing wiped out. As we are told they panicked and turned to the Reapers. But after that they were no longer free as we learn, controlled by the Reapers.

But the primary thing speaking against them still beeing Reapers controlled is the events that follow. If the geth (and by extension Legion since he is the one you ultimately have to trust on this) were still controlled then there is so many places they could have betrayed us and essentially ended the war in a moment.

Hell they have one of the strongest fleets in the galaxy, if they turned on us as we engaged the Reapers over earth that battle would be over long before it began.

As I have said before I look at Legions use of the Reaper code similarly to the Thanix cannon. It wasent technology which was given to use, but an analysis of how the tehcnology worked which led to the creation of our own variety. essentially we recogniced the principals behind the tehcnology and used it ourselves, not the technology itself.

Do i have any poof of this, no, but it all comes down to trusting Legion and the fact that the geth did not trun upon us (or the Quarians) despite ample opputunity to do so.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 22 novembre 2012 - 03:19 .

[ElSuperGecko]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
It doesn't matter how much EMS you have when you opt out. The current cycle will be harvested. If you say Shep is indoctrinated in Control and Synthesis the current cycle would be harvested too, as nothing really changes, and even if then it would only change for worse. Still the scene is not the same. Saying otherwise is pure ignorance.

Not sure where you're coming from here, as I have never mentioned EMS once, I'm not saying the two Stargazer scenes are the same, and your latest argument doesn't do anything to invalidate my own that nothing of any substance or worth can be inferred from the Stargazer scene with regards to the individual endings.

[MegumiAzusa]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
It doesn't matter how much EMS you have when you opt out. The current cycle will be harvested. If you say Shep is indoctrinated in Control and Synthesis the current cycle would be harvested too, as nothing really changes, and even if then it would only change for worse. Still the scene is not the same. Saying otherwise is pure ignorance.

Not sure where you're coming from here, as I have never mentioned EMS once, I'm not saying the two Stargazer scenes are the same, and your latest argument doesn't do anything to invalidate my own that nothing of any substance or worth can be inferred from the Stargazer scene with regards to the individual endings.

Ignorance. Seriously.
I have mentioned EMS, even before which you just ignored, because it has relevance as the scene never changes. You simply cannot defeat the Reapers with low EMS if the Crucible doesn't work. Still the opt out stargazer scene shows you what the scene looks like when exactly that happens. And that even disregards EMS as even with 1000000 EMS you wouldn't be able to stand against the Reapers. Which shows that you wouldn't be able to do it in any of the other endings. EMS is important to how it's unimportant in the long term and shows that you cannot defeat the Reapers without the Crucible, it only affects short term events. The choice to use the Crucible however is a long term choice.

[ElSuperGecko]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Ignorance. Seriously.

LOL, no.  And insults don't help your case, they only make you look petulant.

I have mentioned EMS, even before which you just ignored, because it has relevance as the scene never changes. You simply cannot defeat the Reapers with low EMS if the Crucible doesn't work. Still the opt out stargazer scene shows you what the scene looks like when exactly that happens. And that even disregards EMS as even with 1000000 EMS you wouldn't be able to stand against the Reapers. Which shows that you wouldn't be able to do it in any of the other endings. EMS is important to how it's unimportant in the long term and shows that you cannot defeat the Reapers without the Crucible, it only affects short term events. The choice to use the Crucible however is a long term choice.

I didn't ignore anything.  Your points simply have no relevance, because high EMS, low EMS, medium EMS, Destroy, Control, Synthesis - it really doesn't make a difference - the Stargazer scene has nothing to do with Shepard's final decision

I shall repeat again: We are given so little information about the Stargazer scene, we know so little about the characters and the world they inhabit that it could mean literally ANYTHING.  The Stargazer and the child could be discussing Shepard's exploits from the point of view of oral tradition, from historic records, from information gathered from one of Liara's time capsules, they could be descendants of humanity, beings from another galactic cycle, organics, synthetics, anything.  We.  Don't.  Know.

One last time:  The ONLY things we can take with ANY degree of certainty from the Stargazer scene are a: they know stories about "the Shepard", b: that there's more of Shepard's story still to tell.

That's all.  Don't try and make the scene a justification of your own headcanon, or anything else it's not.

[MegumiAzusa]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Ignorance. Seriously.

LOL, no.  And insults don't help your case, they only make you look petulant.

I have mentioned EMS, even before which you just ignored, because it has relevance as the scene never changes. You simply cannot defeat the Reapers with low EMS if the Crucible doesn't work. Still the opt out stargazer scene shows you what the scene looks like when exactly that happens. And that even disregards EMS as even with 1000000 EMS you wouldn't be able to stand against the Reapers. Which shows that you wouldn't be able to do it in any of the other endings. EMS is important to how it's unimportant in the long term and shows that you cannot defeat the Reapers without the Crucible, it only affects short term events. The choice to use the Crucible however is a long term choice.

I didn't ignore anything.  Your points simply have no relevance, because high EMS, low EMS, medium EMS, Destroy, Control, Synthesis - it really doesn't make a difference - the Stargazer scene has nothing to do with Shepard's final decision

I shall repeat again: We are given so little information about the Stargazer scene, we know so little about the characters and the world they inhabit that it could mean literally ANYTHING.  The Stargazer and the child could be discussing Shepard's exploits from the point of view of oral tradition, from historic records, from information gathered from one of Liara's time capsules, they could be descendants of humanity, beings from another galactic cycle, organics, synthetics, anything.  We.  Don't.  Know.

One last time:  The ONLY things we can take with ANY degree of certainty from the Stargazer scene are a: they know stories about "the Shepard", b: that there's more of Shepard's story still to tell.

That's all.  Don't try and make the scene a justification of your own headcanon, or anything else it's not.

If all that doesn't make a difference why have 2 versions at all? You are ignoring my points and say they have no relevance because you don't want to hear them.
You basically say "it's not my headcanon so it's wrong".

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 22 novembre 2012 - 04:08 .

[spotlessvoid]

@Megumi

You're confusing me pointing out your misuse of that quote with arguing against the point you were trying to make with it. I don't even feel like debating what you are saying. All I was saying was that using a quote pointing out the inherent fallibility of the intellect in this situation is absurd. That quote could be used in any debate on any topic and still be true, but that wouldn't make it pertinent. Saying using mental constructs creates misconceptions during a debate of fiction, which is by definition a mental construct, is utterly pointless. And if you truly saw the meaning in it, you should have sat your butt down to meditate.

[MissLiya]

IT still alive? О_о