80611 réponses à ce sujet

[byne]

Speaking of Mordin's death, does anyone actually prefer the death scene where he doesnt sing Scientist Salarian?

[BleedingUranium]

Home run MF wrote...

Shepard says "He told me he had to do it--someone else might have gotten it wrong."

What??? That's way better, regardless of the other line! Also, it's called "He insisted"

[BleedingUranium]

byne wrote...

Speaking of Mordin's death, does anyone actually prefer the death scene where he doesnt sing Scientist Salarian?

Nah, I like him singing better.  I got the non-singing version on my second playthrough even through he sang in ME2.

[Rifneno]

BleedingUranium wrote...

I think It's a bit of a moot point, because telling Legion he has a soul is like reading from the prayer book with Thane's son. You don't do it because you believe it, you do it out of respect for your dying friend who just gave their life to save others.

Thank God someone gets it.

byne wrote...

Speaking of Mordin's death, does anyone actually prefer the death scene where he doesnt sing Scientist Salarian?

I do. Very much so. Mostly because of his last words. "Genophage cured, krogan free. New beginning... for all of us." Now remember Mordin's talk about spiritualist and religion on his Tuchanka mission in ME2. He says salarians mostly follow a "wheel of life" concept that's similar to human Hinduism, mostly with focus on reincarnation. Mordin's last words are ones of happiness as he gave his life going a great thing and he's about to embark on a new one.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

starlitegirlx wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

I think It's a bit of a moot point, because telling Legion he has a soul is like reading from the prayer book with Thane's son. You don't do it because you believe it, you do it out of respect for your dying friend who just gave their life to save others.

Thank God someone gets it.

byne wrote...

Speaking of Mordin's death, does anyone actually prefer the death scene where he doesnt sing Scientist Salarian?

I do. Very much so. Mostly because of his last words. "Genophage cured, krogan free. New beginning... for all of us." Now remember Mordin's talk about spiritualist and religion on his Tuchanka mission in ME2. He says salarians mostly follow a "wheel of life" concept that's similar to human Hinduism, mostly with focus on reincarnation. Mordin's last words are ones of happiness as he gave his life going a great thing and he's about to embark on a new one.

Yes. I thought the singing ruined the moment. I wish they didn't do that. It was perfect in the med bay but out of place, to me, in the death scene. Liked his words better. In later runs I didn't get him to sing because i didn't want that moment ruined, but he still sang, like the game somehow linked to previous plays, which is weird. 

While on that topic, Kirrahe in one game refers specifically to my character by the name I gave her. Then in every game after that (until I chatted with him before the elevator once I realized he was there) he referred to my other characters by that name. Not commander or shepard but by the name. That astounded me.

Singing or no singing (I had singing on my first playthrough) Mordin´s death is one of the most beatiful and heartwrenching I have experienced in gaming.

Only a handful of of fictional sad moments have affected me as deeply as that moment, one other time (and possibly the saddest moment i have ever seen in a fictional piece of work) was the end of Grave of the Fireflies and there is also a certain moment in Valkyrai Chronicles which also hit close (I wont spoil it).

But i dont really care about the singing, the scene is beatiful either way

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 22 novembre 2012 - 09:25 .

[IronSabbath88]

No! I much prefer Mordin singing! I had to silently finish off his line for him before watching him die. It was an epic moment for me.

[Rifneno]

starlitegirlx wrote...

I don't think it was meant as religious beliefs being spouted off and jammed down anyone's throat. It was likely the best way the writers could come up with to manipulate players away from destroy. 'Soul' is so commonly used in societies as some kind of reference to being more than a lump of mostly water that happens to be sentient, that it was likely the easiest reference for them. It was a manipulation tactic. I don't think it was meant with any kind of religious sentiment, but rather to imply whether the machine is more than a machine that happens to think and is sentient. They couldn't go with feelings, because it's a machine it has already been addressed in the shuttle at one point. So that was not something they could use.

Remember, they needed to manipuate players away from destroy. That mission with legion was very specifically designed, when you look at it (the server one). It could have been left out entirely and people here suggest there was more that was cut before it. But without it, you may not have fully sided with the geth and wanting them to live or not wanting them to die. If you remove the server mission then remove the comment about the soul which seems to serve merely as some kind of stronger validation that geth don't deserve to die, then you have likely been swayed away from choosing destroy if you believe the brat and don't want the geth to die. It's no longer an option for you to do that.

Frankly, the soul question is one of the stupidest in the game.

Possible. I think it was genuinely the geth struggling with a philosophical question on whether their form of life is a "valid" one. Having been shunned by all other races, it's only natural they might start wondering if there's a good reason for it.

Regardless, the option they're talking about (going off about how souls aren't real) is DEFINITELY spouting off and jamming your beliefs down others throats while epicly missing the point of the scene. If the option is there, it should be there in the same way that the option to let Nuftu Cal get himself killed on Illium: because some people just like to be a douchebag in video games.

[Restrider]

byne wrote...

Speaking of Mordin's death, does anyone actually prefer the death scene where he doesnt sing Scientist Salarian?

I've seen it on YT and it is really fitting.
Wasn't it something like this:
Mordin: "A new beginning... for everyone..." *Explosion*

[BleedingUranium]

Rifneno wrote...

Possible. I think it was genuinely the geth struggling with a philosophical question on whether their form of life is a "valid" one. Having been shunned by all other races, it's only natural they might start wondering if there's a good reason for it.

Regardless, the option they're talking about (going off about how souls aren't real) is DEFINITELY spouting off and jamming your beliefs down others throats while epicly missing the point of the scene. If the option is there, it should be there in the same way that the option to let Nuftu Cal get himself killed on Illium: because some people just like to be a douchebag in video games.

Actually, I got Niftu Cal killed on my first playthrough because I thought he did that to himself willingly. It was only after I spared him on my second that I learned he was forced to take all those drugs by the mercs, and I felt pretty bad about killing him before.

[Restrider]

Rifneno wrote...
Possible. I think it was genuinely the geth struggling with a philosophical question on whether their form of life is a "valid" one. Having been shunned by all other races, it's only natural they might start wondering if there's a good reason for it.

Regardless, the option they're talking about (going off about how souls aren't real) is DEFINITELY spouting off and jamming your beliefs down others throats while epicly missing the point of the scene. If the option is there, it should be there in the same way that the option to let Nuftu Cal get himself killed on Illium: because some people just like to be a douchebag in video games.

Wow... kind of a serious reaction to a rather comical comment of mine. I am genuinely surprised and apologize if I've offended anyone here.
And to add, I usually never am that guy. I can't stand people trying to impose their beliefs upon others, just for clarification.

In any ways, I think the question "Are we alive?" would've been better than "Does this unit have a soul?" just to avoid the whole argument on religous beliefs. And I really do not like the use of the word soul in general since it is not really defined and can mean anything and usually leads to confusion and/or misunderstanding.

But it is really a tiny, little point that really is not worth to be discussed or to start a religous debate.

[BleedingUranium]

Restrider wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
Possible. I think it was genuinely the geth struggling with a philosophical question on whether their form of life is a "valid" one. Having been shunned by all other races, it's only natural they might start wondering if there's a good reason for it.

Regardless, the option they're talking about (going off about how souls aren't real) is DEFINITELY spouting off and jamming your beliefs down others throats while epicly missing the point of the scene. If the option is there, it should be there in the same way that the option to let Nuftu Cal get himself killed on Illium: because some people just like to be a douchebag in video games.

Wow... kind of a serious reaction to a rather comical comment of mine. I am genuinely surprised and apologize if I've offended anyone here.
And to add, I usually never am that guy. I can't stand people trying to impose their beliefs upon others, just for clarification.

In any ways, I think the question "Are we alive?" would've been better than "Does this unit have a soul?" just to avoid the whole argument on religous beliefs. And I really do not like the use of the word soul in general since it is not really defined and can mean anything and usually leads to confusion and/or misunderstanding.

But it is really a tiny, little point that really is not worth to be discussed or to start a religous debate.

I took it as a joke, but joined in the discussion anyway

[Restrider]

Okay, back on track then:
Any thoughts on DoomsDay's From Ashes Datapad?

There seems to be a pattern, but it could easily be just circumstantial.

[BleedingUranium]

Restrider wrote...

Okay, back on track then:
Any thoughts on DoomsDay's From Ashes Datapad?

There seems to be a pattern, but it could easily be just circumstantial.

I think it's very interesting, very stargazer scene-ish, fourth-wall breaking.

[demersel]

I think it is there to suggest this way of thought about your enemy.

[Arashi08]

I just saw that "neo-human" video on YT that spotless posted...are these people serious?

Modifié par Arashi08, 22 novembre 2012 - 10:45 .

[Arashi08]

why you double-post BSN? whyyyyyyyyyyy!?

[Rifneno]

Restrider wrote...

Wow... kind of a serious reaction to a rather comical comment of mine. I am genuinely surprised and apologize if I've offended anyone here.
And to add, I usually never am that guy. I can't stand people trying to impose their beliefs upon others, just for clarification.

In any ways, I think the question "Are we alive?" would've been better than "Does this unit have a soul?" just to avoid the whole argument on religous beliefs. And I really do not like the use of the word soul in general since it is not really defined and can mean anything and usually leads to confusion and/or misunderstanding.

But it is really a tiny, little point that really is not worth to be discussed or to start a religous debate.

You've read my posts before, right? You should know that's par for the course, not serious reaction or being offended. Hard to interpret tone over the Internet. I didn't realize you were joking, you didn't realize I was calm. As for the wording in the game, it's fine. It's clearly laid out what the context is. When the geth were first gaining sentience they read up on some quarian religious texts. They took note of the usage of the word soul. Some geth asked their masters if they had souls like their quarian masters. That's what caused the quarians to freak out and try that genocide thingie. The geth have asked that question many times, and I'm sure most if not all of the quarians told them that they don't. It's become symbolic if nothing else. "Does this unit have a soul?" is the direct cause of the Morning War.

[Restrider]

I've just watched the video.
Too optimistic for my taste, but on the other hand, if we go 20 years into the past and compare the advances in technology and sciences, I think there is a lot to come in the next 20 years, at least that's what I hope.
Furthermore I usually support greater funding of research. However I dislike the totalitarian notion shown in this video. I think it is hipocritical to assume that someone knows better than others and justfies actions with this.
Moreover the depicted form of nanotechnology - if it were to come true - would also enable startling new possibilities in medicine. If we are able to construct robots that are able to change their form and we are able to manipulate matter, we should also be able to cure nearly all kind of deseases and maybe even stop aging. I think that hasn't been mentioned at all in that video.

In addition, sociological and/or cultural changes will happen, but it will most certainly be an organic process that starts in the society itself and is not imposed by their government/leaders/elite.

[BleedingUranium]

starlitegirlx wrote...

The point of the scene is two fold - player manipulation and validating geth as valid forms of life. The way they did it was probably not the best way to go about it considering you have been so upset by it and surely there are others like you, but it was the only way they had left themselves after tossing the emotions option out the window.

I'm a little stunned that it isn't so easily recognized as a device to manipulate the player by players who are 100% sure there was manipulation taking place. Yes, it was a geth questioning if it was a valid form of life but to miss the lager picture of the role it played in people's choices and perhaps WHY so many stand so sternly behind there choices (notably synthesis - because if you go along with the scene's emotional impact, you have now recognized and acknowledge them as a species that should not die. It's not a large leap from there to wanting to have reapers be your cuddlefish friends and everyone in some kind of utopian let's all get along and evolve so we have no more conflict ever because we're machines devoid of all emotions). It is a tool to manipulate the player to that line of reasoning. The brat furthers it along. But it is there more because of the choices that await us than to validate legion's existence. It serves a two fold purpose, but the primary purpose is manipulation of the player. Yes, obviously it's to make legion, your 'friend' as astablished in cutscenes, feel better, but the grander intent is emotional manipulation of the player. Perhaps only a player who was troubled by the scene would not be able to fully grasp that. EDI and Legion serve as manipulators to pull us from destroy because it will destroy them.

It's also rather interesting that so much effort cultivating the relationships between the player and EDI and Legion. That is a writer manipulating players to not want to kill them. Nobody gives any of this a thought as they are nurturing relationships with EDI and Jeff and helping EDI evolve into a machine with human qualities. Nor do they give it a though as they help Legion. It's hardwired into the player though the moment it comes up in destroy. Peronally I found it to be odd as heck that it was mixed in with destroy even though it was mixed in under the guise of all synthetics would be destroyed and it is even implied that given how much you are rebuilt from cerberus you could be destroyed too. There was no need for that to be written into the story. All of it was built very deliberately to force the player to consider other options. Without EDI and Legion (you really do need both), there really isn't a reason to not destroy the reapers. So the player has been manipulated quite well by BW to look at alternatives that are given. I wonder how many would even consider anything but destroy without legion and EDI in the game. Particularly after the server mission and legion's desire for validation as a form of life?

It's also fascinating because those two characters (and the Geth as a whole) very much support destroying the Reapers, and wouldn't choose Control or Synthesis.

[Restrider]

Rifneno wrote...
You've read my posts before, right? You should know that's par for the course, not serious reaction or being offended. Hard to interpret tone over the Internet. I didn't realize you were joking, you didn't realize I was calm. As for the wording in the game, it's fine. It's clearly laid out what the context is. When the geth were first gaining sentience they read up on some quarian religious texts. They took note of the usage of the word soul. Some geth asked their masters if they had souls like their quarian masters. That's what caused the quarians to freak out and try that genocide thingie. The geth have asked that question many times, and I'm sure most if not all of the quarians told them that they don't. It's become symbolic if nothing else. "Does this unit have a soul?" is the direct cause of the Morning War.

So, as usual it was all based on a misunderstanding.

I get the whole context. "Does this unit have a soul?" in that context equals "Is this unit alive?" - at least for me. It just shows that the Geth are capable of surpassing what the Quarians thought they would be able to process.

[Restrider]

A point I'd like to add to the Destroy decision and the role of EDI and the Geth:
We all agree that EDI would sacrifice herself to destroy the Reapers. Legion also states that about the Geth, so does Legion Prime on Rannoch. But what most people supporting Synthesis/Control and stigmatizing Destroy with genocide do not get is the following thing - the Geth are not like an organic race. They do not have civilians or little children. At the end of ME3 they willingly enlisted in the efforts to defeat the Reapers - as a whole . You could say that all Geth are soldiers. And soldiers are sacrificed in a war to achieve certain goals - especially if that goal is the direct victory.

For instance, Admiral Hackett sacrificed the Second Fleet to save two other fleets. That's the calculus of war in action. It is ugly, but that's how wars are. The Destroy decision at the end is similar, you risk the existence of the Geth, EDI and yourself to stop the Reapers. And all three of these are - more or less - soldiers.

Modifié par Restrider, 22 novembre 2012 - 11:20 .