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[masster blaster]

So I guess everyone is out cold this day. Well I guess I could look at some other threads for a bit. Be right back.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

masster blaster wrote...

So I guess everyone is out cold this day. Well I guess I could look at some other threads for a bit. Be right back.

Other threads  (shivers). Is there such a thing on this forum?

[Killdren88]

masster blaster wrote...

So I guess everyone is out cold this day. Well I guess I could look at some other threads for a bit. Be right back.

I suppose so,

Modifié par Killdren88, 23 novembre 2012 - 08:42 .

[masster blaster]

On second thought I think I will pass. Some of the threads are bashing at Bioware, and ME3/ME4. Honest people just want to forget ME3, but bash on ME4 about an event before ME1-ME3, which to me is stupid because we already know what happened.

I mean sure it will be great, but really what's there to tell? Nothing Reapers harvested/ killed the races in each cycle that were ready.

Only thing I see is Bioware makes An ME prequle when the Harbinger is born shows us that it's the brat/ leader of the Reapers, and boom. There is the big confermation that the semi end of ME3 was Harbinger Indoctinating Shepard., or

Bioware can move on with the story and have Shepard back on his/her feet, with a brand new class to choose from. By this point the old classes have changed due to the Reaper war, and now there are called diffrent names, but have some new powers, and names.

Also I like to think " There will be no Shepard in ME4, or Shepard 2.0 because Shepard isn't in it yet. " Or

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Threads endlessly bashing at Bioware? I hope the devs watch this one more closely than those for feedback, they might start loosing hope otherwise

[masster blaster]

Forget that or, and about the Stargazer. What's funny about it, is that the Reapers are dead in his future, and are no more than a Legend. In Synthesis nothing has changed in the future in the Stargazer scene. It looks all the same. No green lights, no glowing trees, or the Gazer/ brat glowing a tad bit.

Also you would think EDI would be telling the brat the story because they found away to be inmortal right. So she should still be alive. Don't say she died due to war because Synthesis can't have war because as soon as it starts the Reapers will put it down. That being said Synthesis has no violence no crime.


" It ooks pretty calm and peaceful, but it's not right. It's all just an illusion." - Vega

That pretty much goes with the epilogues. They look calm and peaceful, but it's not right.

Oh and I forgot in Control Shepard should be the one telling the boy about the stars, or a Reaper should. Harbinger really should.


Holy crap I just remebered, when the cut scene where Hacket tells sword that Harbinger and a few Reaper class Destroyers are coming to inter sect Shepard. Only Harbinger is there both in Low, and High ems. It makes sense for high ems, but for low. I don't think so.

Maybe Harbinger already took out Shepard before they arrive at the beam. It makes sense. We have talked about this before, but I want to bring it back up again.

It makes sense why Harbingers beam didn't kill Shepard. If Harbinger took out the transport that had Shepard in it, then if Shepard starts to have a dream about what's about to go down. Harbinger in order to break Shepard must get rid of his/her strongest will power.

His/her squadmates. Now when that's taken care of, Harbinger moves in for the kill. You see Harbinger just wants to break Shepard first piece by piece. As the soldiers begin to get shot down by Harbinger, Shepard's willpower begins to fail.


For every soldier that dies Shepard begins to doubt that he/she will not make it. Then once Shepard starts to get to the point when he/she regains his/her sense Harbinger again takes out Shepard's major willpower/ first line of defence.


Oh and think about this from star brts view, what if the choices mean something more than what we say/think it is.

Harbinger is giving Shepard a choice, but how he/she will end up.

Refuse/ reject Harbinger not Shepard refuses/rejects Shepard.

Destroy Harbinger Destroys Shepard/ his/her Synthetic parts.

Control Harbinger gains Control of Shepard because the player gives Shepard up to become Harbingers slave.

Synthesis again player looses Shepard, but Harbinger does not want to use Shepard as just an agent, no Harbinger wants Shepard to become one with Harbinger, and creat the Perfect Reaper/Harbinger.

[masster blaster]

Also notice the gun symbolises the players Control over Shepard. In most cases that symbolises Shepard has to shot something right. Why give us a gun if all we do is shot things with it right. The gun is the players Control over Shepard.

Now in Control, and Synthesis Shepard drops the gun symbolising he/she is done fighting, and the player looses Control over Shepard.

Yet in Destroy, and refuse Shepard keeps the gun symbolising he/she is still in the fight, however in refuse since Shepard didn't make a choice, he/she becomes a mindless Salarian like the ones on virmire.

Destroy is the only ending were we see Shepard not struggling, but more like regaining his/her will to fight.

[masster blaster]

Oh and 1 more thing. The end is a mind game for the player right, and it's like a final test before the graduation. In a sense the boss fight is the mind. Every thing we have done all comes up. What we leared, and what we remeber is used at the end of the game.

Destroy gains us everything right.

Control leads to down fail, and corruption

Synthesis leads to uprising, and abomination/ genocid

Refuse gains us nothing, but dust.

People see Destroy as a bad thing, but it's a good thing. Sure it has high pricess, but in the end it proves true. Look at arrival did Destroying the Mass Relays help provid the galaxy a little more time to get ready for the Reaper arrival?

Did Destroying Nazara win us the battle. Did Destroying Sarens base stop him from breeding a Krogan army/ mass Indoctrinating people?

Sure there are some Destroy actions that people can use against what I am saying, but in truth Destroy is mostly at times the best option, but that's just my personal imput.

I know the Synthesis, and Control supporters say " Genocid", but yet there is more s*** that makes Synthesis, and Control nothing but pure evil, and even they both have genocid in them.

Synthesis has had greater bs points than Control . Look at the Protheans are they still the same as they are no. Are they did yes. Why they can't talk. They have no free will, and do they like what the Reaper did to them hell no, but I can't ask them because they can't talk/ no free will.

Look at project overlord. Who gave Garvin the right to play god. He said he was doing this to save everyone, yet he wasn't. He caused his brother so much pain, and look at all the dead people that died so that Synthesis can happen. I mean the project to work.

I can go on, but you get the point.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

masster blaster wrote...

Oh and 1 more thing. The end is a mind game for the player right, and it's like a final test before the graduation. In a sense the boss fight is the mind. Every thing we have done all comes up. What we leared, and what we remeber is used at the end of the game.

Destroy gains us everything right.

Control leads to down fail, and corruption

Synthesis leads to uprising, and abomination/ genocid

Refuse gains us nothing, but dust.

People see Destroy as a bad thing, but it's a good thing. Sure it has high pricess, but in the end it proves true. Look at arrival did Destroying the Mass Relays help provid the galaxy a little more time to get ready for the Reaper arrival?

Did Destroying Nazara win us the battle. Did Destroying Sarens base stop him from breeding a Krogan army/ mass Indoctrinating people?

Sure there are some Destroy actions that people can use against what I am saying, but in truth Destroy is mostly at times the best option, but that's just my personal imput.

I know the Synthesis, and Control supporters say " Genocid", but yet there is more s*** that makes Synthesis, and Control nothing but pure evil, and even they both have genocid in them.

Synthesis has had greater bs points than Control . Look at the Protheans are they still the same as they are no. Are they did yes. Why they can't talk. They have no free will, and do they like what the Reaper did to them hell no, but I can't ask them because they can't talk/ no free will.

Look at project overlord. Who gave Garvin the right to play god. He said he was doing this to save everyone, yet he wasn't. He caused his brother so much pain, and look at all the dead people that died so that Synthesis can happen. I mean the project to work.

I can go on, but you get the point.

The Heretic Geth mission is probably some of the best lines we have to use against Control and Synthesis. Right as we enter the station and Legion tells us the Heretics can be rewritten there is a number of interesting lines from your squadmates.

Kasumi: "Either way the Heretics are wiped out. Killed or remade. What is the difference?"

Jack: "Wow. great choices. Genocide or Brainwashing. If you screwed with my head, made me nod and smile at everything...idd rather you blew my head of. Let me die as me."

Samara: "Either way what makes these Geth individuals, dies. If you change who someone is, how they think, you have killed them. They will be something new in the same body."

Thane: "There is no moral difference between the two. If you change who the Heretic are, you have "killed" them...killed their perspective."

Jacob: "Changing their personality is the same as killing them...who they are is gone."

Even Grunt: "Kill them or pull their teeth, whats the difference? They're killed both ways. Take away their fighting spirit, what else matters?"

Garrus: "That sounds dangerously close to Indoctrination, unless there is something i am missing. Maybe this is how AI's settle religious disputes."

Also Shepards Paragon reply to this is: "I wouldnt brainwash an organic race, I can't see treating the Geth differently."

Especially Jack and Samara´s lines I really love. For peace to be possible with the Reapers Synthesis almost has to have made people "nod and smile" and try throwing the the line about changing someone killing them at anyone who consider the Reapers victims since by having Shepard assume control you are changing them.

Hell just throw it at the Reapers in general. They claim to preserve yet going by these lines they are preserving nothing.

Also consider what Miranda tells us about Shepard's ressurction in the Lazarus project, that TIM wanted Shepard back exactly as Shepard, no changes to the mind, no chips added, nothing.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 23 novembre 2012 - 10:02 .

[masster blaster]

Oh and to add on from my post about Shepard is kocked out before he/she arrives to the Conduit beam. I think Shepard is having a nithmer/ is being Indoctrinated. You see when the sceen goes black when the transport blows up, that's when Shepard goes into a dream.

At first things look great Harbinger is not here, and look no guards guarding the beam. Gee I wonder why nobody is guarding the beam?

Then the Nightmer starts. Harbinger revals it'self as the one giving Shepard the nightmers about the body. Well in a sense. You see Harbinger ( the only Reaper/ enemy there), is all alone like the kid is. Now as Shepard charges down the hill Harbinger must makes sure Shepard is alone in his/her dream, so Harbinger takes out the squadmates, and they go bye bye out of Shepard's mind.

Now in order to further Indoctrinate Shepard Harbinger must break Shepard's willpower in 2, so Harbinger fires his laser at Shepard, yet doesn't kill him, due to it's a dream/ nightmer/ Indoctrination attempt. It was more like Shepard can't wake up know because his mind took some damage.

Now that Shepard is down, Hammer ( Shepard's willpower) can't take it anymore, and has to retreat to regroup/ regain him/her self, when Shepard's willpower regroups Anderson is created, yet Shepard's infected part of his/her mind creats TIM in order to counter the willpower of Shepard.

That's why TIM can Control Shepard because he controls Shepard's willpower Anderson. Also when Bioware said that it wouldn't be far for the players to loose Control of Shepard right, but we do in Synthesis, Control, and refuse. Only Destroy did we not loose Control over Shepard.

What I mean by that is refuse we loose Control of Shepard because his/her willpower is gone/ can't fight anymore. Synthesis, and Control we don't Control Shepard because he/she dies.

Control doesn't keep our Shepard alive, but a copy of Shepard's mind that is nothing like the Shepard we played as. Also Shepard only sees logic, and doesn't act on his/her emotions like he/she always has.

Synthesis Shepard is intergrated with Harbinger. Everything Shepard knew, everyone that Shepard loved, and what he/she did is gone from thought now.

[Andromidius]

Davik Kang wrote...
Some stuff just needs that dissenting voice imo.  To give an example, and honestly sorry to those who'll be offended by this, but e.g. posting a picture of the final choices with the red and blue colour channels reversed was one of the stupidest things I have ever seen.  "Confirmation bias" gets thrown around on forums but oh my god.  Now if people browsing this thread and see stuff like that get a few appreciative nods and no opposite view expressed, you can't then be that surprised when people dismiss IT after browsing maybe only one or two pages.

I disagree entirely.  Even if it means nothing, it was still interesting and there were some solid ideas behind even trying it.  Inversions are a big part of symbology.  And there are a few things that are reversed during that scene.

Regardless, to call it 'stupid' is just rude.

Modifié par Andromidius, 23 novembre 2012 - 10:07 .

[Andromidius]

Lakeshow1986 wrote...

Simply the difference between sequence 1 when Shepard has their weapons to sequence 2&3 when they don't suggests a removal of their ability to fight in their dream.

You know.

I never noticed that.

Mind is blown.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Andromidius wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...
Some stuff just needs that dissenting voice imo.  To give an example, and honestly sorry to those who'll be offended by this, but e.g. posting a picture of the final choices with the red and blue colour channels reversed was one of the stupidest things I have ever seen.  "Confirmation bias" gets thrown around on forums but oh my god.  Now if people browsing this thread and see stuff like that get a few appreciative nods and no opposite view expressed, you can't then be that surprised when people dismiss IT after browsing maybe only one or two pages.

I disagree entirely.  Even if it means nothing, it was still interesting and there were some solid ideas behind even trying it.  Inversions are a big part of symbology.  And there are a few things that are reversed during that scene.

Regardless, to call it 'stupid' is just rude.

I find the reverse color thing interesting as well especially since we allready have a reversal in the Anderson / TIM representation of the choices. Am i gonna place it on pedestal as great proof? No, but it gives food for thought.

[Andromidius]

Lakeshow1986 wrote...

I simply cannot shake this quote, really is epic;

"Your mind belongs to me, breathe."

"Ann, what's happening?"

"Your memories give voice to our words. Your nature will be revealed to us, accept this."

Mind boggling to see how the ending isn't an illusion if the Reapers have perfecting enthrallment to give rise to indoctrination! The reapers are even able to manipulate our memories to give the appearance of the child in a glowing angelic light to influence us.

Yeah, and it conforms with the idea that Reapers (or at least Harbinger) can add elements to the hallucination that aren't part of the memory to better convince the victim that it is real.  Makes sense that an upgraded version of a Leviathan's enthrallment will be superior.

Infact, crazy idea time.  Maybe we should stop treating the scene as Indoctrination and instead as Enthrallment?  Maybe Reapers prefer Indoctrination since it is perminant, but ran out of time with trying to turn Shepard and instead resorted to the quick solution of Enthrallment.

Crazy ideas over now.

[Jadebaby]

lex0r11 wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...


Just about my post back on page 1984...

I know neurological pathways have been connected to the 'trees' before, but had anyone been knowledgable enough about how the brain functions to know that the increased haziness of the trees in sequence 2 could be referring to instability and/or deterioration in Shepard's brain?

Jade!

Uhm, haziness as in everything is not in its right place or the world being blurry after you wake up after a lousy nap could be a great way to show us that something is off.

Just like everything after the Harbinger beam hit being all blurry in visuals and muffled in sound. Something's off, too muchto be just the effects of a short-term trauma from a close proximity explosion.

Basically everything that is shown to us "wrong" visually means something is very very wrong.

Good point.

No, Haziness as in the neurological pathways in Shepard's brain is being taken over by indoctrination.

I really can't say it any better than that. Refer to the previous post of mine of Page 1984 to see what I mean.

[Jadebaby]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Doing some research and I can't find anything specifically supporting it, but it definitely makes sense Jade. You would think they had a reason for doing that, right?

Research within the MEverse? Or outside of it?

[paxxton]

Is this The Day?

[paxxton]

nm

Modifié par paxxton, 23 novembre 2012 - 10:30 .

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Paxxton what? Can't see that image and it leads back to page 1 for some reason.

[paxxton]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Paxxton what? Can't see that image and it leads back to page 1 for some reason.

It was a joke.
http://www.shadyurl.com/

[JMDekker2]

If that link was posted on any other thread no way I would have followed it. But I'm glad I did, my mind is now open! It's all clear now!!

Modifié par JMDekker2, 23 novembre 2012 - 10:34 .

[BleedingUranium]

Andromidius wrote...

Lakeshow1986 wrote...

I simply cannot shake this quote, really is epic;

"Your mind belongs to me, breathe."

"Ann, what's happening?"

"Your memories give voice to our words. Your nature will be revealed to us, accept this."

Mind boggling to see how the ending isn't an illusion if the Reapers have perfecting enthrallment to give rise to indoctrination! The reapers are even able to manipulate our memories to give the appearance of the child in a glowing angelic light to influence us.

Yeah, and it conforms with the idea that Reapers (or at least Harbinger) can add elements to the hallucination that aren't part of the memory to better convince the victim that it is real.  Makes sense that an upgraded version of a Leviathan's enthrallment will be superior.

Infact, crazy idea time.  Maybe we should stop treating the scene as Indoctrination and instead as Enthrallment?  Maybe Reapers prefer Indoctrination since it is perminant, but ran out of time with trying to turn Shepard and instead resorted to the quick solution of Enthrallment.

Crazy ideas over now.

But Indoctrination is just more evolved Enthrallment. Put in ME gameplay terms, if it were a power, the Leviathans only had level one Enthrallment, while the Reapers, over time, got it all the way up to six, and renamed it.

[ElSuperGecko]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
The Heretic Geth mission is probably some of the best lines we have to use against Control and Synthesis. Right as we enter the station and Legion tells us the Heretics can be rewritten there is a number of interesting lines from your squadmates.

Kasumi: "Either way the Heretics are wiped out. Killed or remade. What is the difference?"

Jack: "Wow. great choices. Genocide or Brainwashing. If you screwed with my head, made me nod and smile at everything...idd rather you blew my head of. Let me die as me."

Samara: "Either way what makes these Geth individuals, dies. If you change who someone is, how they think, you have killed them. They will be something new in the same body."

Thane: "There is no moral difference between the two. If you change who the Heretic are, you have "killed" them...killed their perspective."

Jacob: "Changing their personality is the same as killing them...who they are is gone."

Even Grunt: "Kill them or pull their teeth, whats the difference? They're killed both ways. Take away their fighting spirit, what else matters?"

Garrus: "That sounds dangerously close to Indoctrination, unless there is something i am missing. Maybe this is how AI's settle religious disputes."

Also Shepards Paragon reply to this is: "I wouldnt brainwash an organic race, I can't see treating the Geth differently."

Especially Jack and Samara´s lines I really love. For peace to be possible with the Reapers Synthesis almost has to have made people "nod and smile" and try throwing the the line about changing someone killing them at anyone who consider the Reapers victims since by having Shepard assume control you are changing them.

Hell just throw it at the Reapers in general. They claim to preserve yet going by these lines they are preserving nothing.

Also consider what Miranda tells us about Shepard's ressurction in the Lazarus project, that TIM wanted Shepard back exactly as Shepard, no changes to the mind, no chips added, nothing.

So much of the dialogue in all of the ME games is almost prophetic when it comes to the endings.  The literalist argument against usually involves the quotes being taken out of context, however foreshadowing is a major narrative and storytelling device.

For me, the kicker comes from EDI:

EDI:  "Moral decisions should not be made in a vacuum.  If I do not ask the crew for their opinion, I may miss valuable context."

Shepard's all alone at the end.  There's no one to there refer to - the player has to make the decision on their own.  But the advice and opinions of your squadmates have already been given to you, a multitude of times, throughout the entire series.  Are their warnings so easily forgotten?

Edit:  Taupe.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 23 novembre 2012 - 11:07 .

[BleedingUranium]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

So much of the dialogue in all of the ME games is almost prophetic when it comes to the endings.  The literalist argument against usually involves the quotes being taken out of context, however foreshadowing is a major narrative and storytelling device.

For me, the kicker comes from EDI:

EDI:  "Moral decisions should not be made in a vacuum.  If I do not ask the crew for their opinion, I may miss valuable context."

Shepard's all alone at the end.  There's no one to there refer to - the player has to make the decision on their own.  But the advice and opinions of your squadmates have already been given to you, a multitude of times, throughout the entire series.  Are their warnings so easily forgotten?

Edit:  Taupe.

Also, Shepard's in space.