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[Andromidius]

401 Kill wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I would say shooting Mordin if Wrex and Eve are both alive.  There's absolutely NO justification.

I agree with this.  Its the most heartwrenchingly evil thing Shepard could do.  Its dangling the carrot, then murdering a friend who's trying to correct the mistakes of his lifetime and walking away while he's bleeding to death, then lying to another friend all to get the support of a self-serving racist Salarian.

Though siding with the Geth and letting the Quarians die while romancing Tali has got to be up there as well.  Only reason it doesn't top betraying the Krogan and Mordin is that the Quarians brought it upon themselves.

On top of that you still end up killing Wrex as well, effectively dooming the Krogan, all for some non-important Salarian ships that aren't even worth it.

And you get to shoot him several times extra while he's on his knees.  Then flush him out an airlook instead of giving him a burial.

Just.  No.  No.  No.

[401 Kill]

Andromidius wrote...

401 Kill wrote...

Andromidius wrote..

Dwailing wrote...
I would say shooting Mordin if Wrex and Eve are both alive.  There's absolutely NO justification.

I agree with this.  Its the most heartwrenchingly evil thing Shepard could do.  Its dangling the carrot, then murdering a friend who's trying to correct the mistakes of his lifetime and walking away while he's bleeding to death, then lying to another friend all to get the support of a self-serving racist Salarian.
Though siding with the Geth and letting the Quarians die while romancing Tali has got to be up there as well.  Only reason it doesn't top betraying the Krogan and Mordin is that the Quarians brought it upon themselves

On top of that you still end up killing Wrex as well, effectively dooming the Krogan, all for some non-important Salarian ships that aren't even worth it

And you get to shoot him several times extra while he's on his knees.  Then flush him out an airlook instead of giving him a burial.
Just.  No.  No.  No.

Funny enough, if you chose the Quarians over the Geth (With Tali alive at least aka the only way to do anything) you have the option of shooting Legion three times while he is on his knees looking up at you.

It seems that choosing the Geth or the Quarians but not peace both betray your friends,.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

401 Kill wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I would say shooting Mordin if Wrex and Eve are both alive.  There's absolutely NO justification.

I agree with this.  Its the most heartwrenchingly evil thing Shepard could do.  Its dangling the carrot, then murdering a friend who's trying to correct the mistakes of his lifetime and walking away while he's bleeding to death, then lying to another friend all to get the support of a self-serving racist Salarian.

Though siding with the Geth and letting the Quarians die while romancing Tali has got to be up there as well.  Only reason it doesn't top betraying the Krogan and Mordin is that the Quarians brought it upon themselves.

On top of that you still end up killing Wrex as well, effectively dooming the Krogan, all for some non-important Salarian ships that aren't even worth it.

Edit: I can't believe I missed 1996:crying::crying:.

I dont know, stelath Dreadnoughts is pretty awesome.

But, yeah never sided with the Salarians even on my most renegade playthroughs.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

401 Kill wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

401 Kill wrote...

Andromidius wrote..

Dwailing wrote...
I would say shooting Mordin if Wrex and Eve are both alive.  There's absolutely NO justification.

I agree with this.  Its the most heartwrenchingly evil thing Shepard could do.  Its dangling the carrot, then murdering a friend who's trying to correct the mistakes of his lifetime and walking away while he's bleeding to death, then lying to another friend all to get the support of a self-serving racist Salarian.
Though siding with the Geth and letting the Quarians die while romancing Tali has got to be up there as well.  Only reason it doesn't top betraying the Krogan and Mordin is that the Quarians brought it upon themselves

On top of that you still end up killing Wrex as well, effectively dooming the Krogan, all for some non-important Salarian ships that aren't even worth it

And you get to shoot him several times extra while he's on his knees.  Then flush him out an airlook instead of giving him a burial.
Just.  No.  No.  No.

Funny enough, if you chose the Quarians over the Geth (With Tali alive at least aka the only way to do anything) you have the option of shooting Legion three times while he is on his knees looking up at you.

It seems that choosing the Geth or the Quarians but not peace both betray your friends,.

"Betraying friends, trusting enemies and treating the Reaper itself with superstitious awe"

[DoomsdayDevice]

demersel wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Choosing to destroy the geth is also not sucking at the game. I chose to destroy them deliberately. I wanted them death, just like I want the reapers death.

So, again, I have to ask: How does this translate to the indoctrination theory? For my Shepard there is no real reason NOT to pick the Destroy option in the end. Does that mean my Shepard is more resistant to indoctrination than any goody-two-shoes Paragon Shepard?

So does that mean that ruthlessness and cold calculus helps you to keep the Reapers out of your brain? 

Yes, it does.

I agree.

Paragon Shepard is way more empathic... but in certain scenarios, it is naive to be empathic. 

For example, when choosing to let Legion upload the Reaper code. I think that is naive. Sure, it will look like you've made peace, but eventually, the Reaper code will do its thing and it will all bite you in the ass.

The whole situation is completely similar to choosing synthesis. And the only reason to allow it is, is because you want everybody to live. And that's precisely what the Reapers exploit, just like in the ending. You don't want to destroy EDI & Geth? You're screwed.

I predict that if we get ME4 as a continuation, that the decision to let Legion upload the Reaper code will turn out to be detrimental.

Another example, in the decision chamber, if you pick the paragon answers, Shepard sounds so much more open to indoctrination. (S)he's just standing there going: "... but the Reapers will obey me?" etcetera... one of the dialogue options is even labelled 'I think I understand'.

So yes, a full paragon Shepard is much more at risk of becoming indoctrinated.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 23 novembre 2012 - 02:50 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

Dwailing wrote...

Huh, just had another thought about peace vs. victory. Remember what Shepard says to Anderson at the beginning? "I'm a soldier, Anderson, I'm no politician." Well, while Shepard DOES make peace a lot throughout the games, he is a SOLDIER. And the job of soldiers is to WIN! Victory.

Relevant!

Garrus: "If just one survivor is left standing at the end of the war, then the fight was worth it. But humans want to save everyone. In this war, that's not going to happen."

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 23 novembre 2012 - 02:46 .

[Restrider]

Though murdering Mordin is horrible, you could say it had to be done to gain more war assets. There is some kind of logic in that - though I clearly wouldn't shoot Mordin and would try to find another way to get the Salarian's support.

But shooting Falere...?
Rila sacrificed herself to let the others live and kill all those banshees. Samara sacrificed herself to save Falere. Why shoot her then? She said that she would stay on that planet! And you are affraid of her being turned into a banshee, just give her a gun to give her the opportunity to end her life in dignity and avoid being transformed.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Restrider wrote...

Though murdering Mordin is horrible, you could say it had to be done to gain more war assets. There is some kind of logic in that - though I clearly wouldn't shoot Mordin and would try to find another way to get the Salarian's support.

But shooting Falere...?
Rila sacrificed herself to let the others live and kill all those banshees. Samara sacrificed herself to save Falere. Why shoot her then? She said that she would stay on that planet! And you are affraid of her being turned into a banshee, just give her a gun to give her the opportunity to end her life in dignity and avoid being transformed.

You dont even have to give her a gun, there is plenty lying around after you tore through that place.

[401 Kill]

Hmm, if you are Paragon with the Reapers in certain scenarios, Shepard acts... Strange, like he/she trusts the Reapers (especially in the desicion chamber). If you are Renegade with your squadmates in certain scenarios, it's betraying them...

Whether this is important or not is...

[DoomsdayDevice]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

The Heretic Geth mission is probably some of the best lines we have to use against Control and Synthesis. Right as we enter the station and Legion tells us the Heretics can be rewritten there is a number of interesting lines from your squadmates.

Kasumi: "Either way the Heretics are wiped out. Killed or remade. What is the difference?"

Jack: "Wow. great choices. Genocide or Brainwashing. If you screwed with my head, made me nod and smile at everything...idd rather you blew my head of. Let me die as me."

Samara: "Either way what makes these Geth individuals, dies. If you change who someone is, how they think, you have killed them. They will be something new in the same body."

Thane: "There is no moral difference between the two. If you change who the Heretic are, you have "killed" them...killed their perspective."

Jacob: "Changing their personality is the same as killing them...who they are is gone."

Even Grunt: "Kill them or pull their teeth, whats the difference? They're killed both ways. Take away their fighting spirit, what else matters?"

Garrus: "That sounds dangerously close to Indoctrination, unless there is something i am missing. Maybe this is how AI's settle religious disputes."

Also Shepards Paragon reply to this is: "I wouldnt brainwash an organic race, I can't see treating the Geth differently."

Especially Jack and Samara´s lines I really love. For peace to be possible with the Reapers Synthesis almost has to have made people "nod and smile" and try throwing the the line about changing someone killing them at anyone who consider the Reapers victims since by having Shepard assume control you are changing them.

Hell just throw it at the Reapers in general. They claim to preserve yet going by these lines they are preserving nothing.

Also consider what Miranda tells us about Shepard's ressurction in the Lazarus project, that TIM wanted Shepard back exactly as Shepard, no changes to the mind, no chips added, nothing.

Holy crap, I was missing a lot of those! Why didn't you submit these in the IT-quotes topic?! *shakes fist*

Anyway, thanks for posting, and I added them.

[Restrider]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Huh, just had another thought about peace vs. victory. Remember what Shepard says to Anderson at the beginning? "I'm a soldier, Anderson, I'm no politician." Well, while Shepard DOES make peace a lot throughout the games, he is a SOLDIER. And the job of soldiers is to WIN! Victory.

Relevant!

Garrus: "If just one survivor is left standing at the end of the war, then the fight was worth it. But humans want to save everyone. In this war, that's not going to happen."

This reminds me of Xilizhra... long time she hasn't visited us...

[RavenEyry]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Garrus: "If just one survivor is left standing at the end of the war, then the fight was worth it. But humans want to save everyone. In this war, that's not going to happen."

Not being able to win without sacrifice is one of the major themes apparently dropped at the end because there's little to no sacrifice in blue and green.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

401 Kill wrote...

Hmm, if you are Paragon with the Reapers in certain scenarios, Shepard acts... Strange, like he/she trusts the Reapers (especially in the desicion chamber). If you are Renegade with your squadmates in certain scenarios, it's betraying them...

Whether this is important or not is...

I know I posted this a little above, but gotta repeat it here:

"Reaper Indoctrination can manipulate the victim into betraying friends, trusting enemies and treating the Reaper itself with superstitious awe."

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

RavenEyry wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Garrus: "If just one survivor is left standing at the end of the war, then the fight was worth it. But humans want to save everyone. In this war, that's not going to happen."

Not being able to win without sacrifice is one of the major themes apparently dropped at the end because there's little to no sacrifice in blue and green.

And according to the Catalyst nothing that has nota llready been lost will be lost i Destroy (or something like that) despite this obviusly beeing bull****.

[401 Kill]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

401 Kill wrote...

Hmm, if you are Paragon with the Reapers in certain scenarios, Shepard acts... Strange, like he/she trusts the Reapers (especially in the desicion chamber). If you are Renegade with your squadmates in certain scenarios, it's betraying them...

Whether this is important or not is...

I know I posted this a little above, but gotta repeat it here:

"Reaper Indoctrination can manipulate the victim into betraying friends, trusting enemies and treating the Reaper itself with superstitious awe."

Yes, that is what I based my post off of:D.

[RavenEyry]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

401 Kill wrote...

Hmm, if you are Paragon with the Reapers in certain scenarios, Shepard acts... Strange, like he/she trusts the Reapers (especially in the desicion chamber). If you are Renegade with your squadmates in certain scenarios, it's betraying them...

Whether this is important or not is...

I know I posted this a little above, but gotta repeat it here:

"Reaper Indoctrination can manipulate the victim into betraying friends, trusting enemies and treating the Reaper itself with superstitious awe."

Both personality types are being heavily affected but it manifests in different ways.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

401 Kill wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

401 Kill wrote...

Hmm, if you are Paragon with the Reapers in certain scenarios, Shepard acts... Strange, like he/she trusts the Reapers (especially in the desicion chamber). If you are Renegade with your squadmates in certain scenarios, it's betraying them...

Whether this is important or not is...

I know I posted this a little above, but gotta repeat it here:

"Reaper Indoctrination can manipulate the victim into betraying friends, trusting enemies and treating the Reaper itself with superstitious awe."

Yes, that is what I based my post off of:D.

Ah okay

[DoomsdayDevice]

Okay guys, time for an experiment.

I'm not saying where I'm going with this, I just want to see if others are making the same connections.

Just read this:

Shepard: EDI, you're in Dr.Eva's body?

EDI: Not all of me, but I have control of it. It was not a seamless transition.

Shepard: Transition? You blacked out on us there, for a while.

EDI: Correct. When we brought this unit on board, I began a background process to search for its information on the Prothean device. This eventually triggered a trap - a backup power source and CPU activated, and the unit attempted physical confrontation. Fortunately, I was able to gain root access and repurpose it as I saw fit. During this process, it struggled. Thus, the fire.

Thoughts? (Don't hold back)

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

RavenEyry wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

401 Kill wrote...

Hmm, if you are Paragon with the Reapers in certain scenarios, Shepard acts... Strange, like he/she trusts the Reapers (especially in the desicion chamber). If you are Renegade with your squadmates in certain scenarios, it's betraying them...

Whether this is important or not is...

I know I posted this a little above, but gotta repeat it here:

"Reaper Indoctrination can manipulate the victim into betraying friends, trusting enemies and treating the Reaper itself with superstitious awe."

Both personality types are being heavily affected but it manifests in different ways.

I have said it before. If IT is correct (I only use If because it is not directly confirmed, I hold little doubt anymore) then Bioware has created something truly uniqiue in terms of storytelling. The attention to detail is staggering yet subtle.

[Andromidius]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

But, yeah never sided with the Salarians even on my most renegade playthroughs.

Siding with the Krogan is Paragon and Renegade.

Paragon because you want to help them redeem themselves, and you would never betray a friend.

Renegade because Krogan are excellent shock troops and cannon fodder, and you can always bully the Salarians into helping later.

All that being said, you still get Salarian support later on anyway.  Just not quite as much.

[RavenEyry]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Thoughts? (Don't hold back)

Control paralles perchance?

[RavenEyry]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

I have said it before. If IT is correct (I only use If because it is not directly confirmed, I hold little doubt anymore) then Bioware has created something truly uniqiue in terms of storytelling. The attention to detail is staggering yet subtle.

I've no doubt it's correct in at least some form. My problem is it never being followed up and left as a 'valid interpretation'. It's a brilliant cliffhanger, but not an ending.

[Andromidius]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Thoughts? (Don't hold back)

Its possible that EDI was compromised by Eva, or maybe even supplanted.  EDI certainly changes a lot post-Eva confrontation.

However, there's no evidence to support that, and the change in EDI can be attributed to a new perspective and freedom using the body.  She never does anything shady or sinister, at least that I've noticed.

[Andromidius]

RavenEyry wrote...

I've no doubt it's correct in at least some form. My problem is it never being followed up and left as a 'valid interpretation'. It's a brilliant cliffhanger, but not an ending.

I'm fine with a cliffhanger, so long as there's a continuation.  Now ME4 is coming I'm feeling much more comfortable with our prospects.  Before it was hoping for DLC, now its hoping for a good sequel.

Which is infinately more favourable, in my view.

[DoomsdayDevice]

@ Andrmodius @ RavenEyry:

No, sorry, that's not what I mean. I'm curious to see if someone will make the same connections I'm making.