80611 réponses à ce sujet

[byne]

RavenEyry wrote...

byne wrote...
I thought Karpyshyn said it was?

A quick google reveals the starter of the rumour appears to be someone on Something Awful who said they were Karpyshyn.

You'd think if that person was lying, and multiple sites reported what he said, that Karpyshyn would have come out and said that he never said that.

[RavenEyry]

byne wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

byne wrote...
I thought Karpyshyn said it was?

A quick google reveals the starter of the rumour appears to be someone on Something Awful who said they were Karpyshyn.

You'd think if that person was lying, and multiple sites reported what he said, that Karpyshyn would have come out and said that he never said that.

I'm not outright denying it, I just don't like that everyone takes it as solid fact and brings it up consantly even though it has no bearing on whats actually there. Haestrom is the only big appearance and I don't think you even have to do that mission.

[BatmanTurian]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

demersel wrote...

What if ME4 is all about dark energy?

Okay, I'm ready to murder someone over this dark energy ****. Two questions. First, how many times do we have to go through that it makes no sense? None of this "yeah but if they ignore the entire reason it was an intriguing idea to begin with then it could work" drivel either. Second, where did this actually come from? Everyone keeps going on about how it was the original plan but I've never seen any actual evidence of that. It's just an out of control rumor as far as I can see. Everyone takes it as gospel because everyone else takes it as gospel.

Speaking of things that are stupid, page countdowns are stupid. And every post ever that goes "I don't think BW is that smart" without any points to back it up.

Wow Rif, I actually agree with you for a chance! That's quite rare.

Yes, This dark energy bullcrap is a rumor that has gone too far. I don't know who brought it up, but that person deserves a smack in the face. There is no evidence that BioWare originally planned to go anywhere with the whole dark energy bullcrap, none, zero, absolutely nothing. It's just something a fan made up based on Tali's recruiting mission in ME2 and something that was said in one of the Mass Effect novels. It's nothing but wild speculation from fans, but for some reason a lot of fans think this dark energy crap was indeed the original plot of Mass Effect, before Mac Walters supposedly ruined it. I tell you, it's bullshit.

And where is your evidence to prove this? Do you have facts or just your opinion to back it up? A lot of people throw their opinion up as fact on this board. Opinions are not facts.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 23 novembre 2012 - 06:01 .

[RavenEyry]

demersel wrote...

I'm not saying it is secretly the main threat of the series. The reapers are.
But really, your sun suddenly going supernova for no apperent reason - that is pretty scary.

As I say every time the subject is broached: It may be a problem, but it's not Shepards problem. The same way you don't end batarian slavery or sort out all corruption on Illium.

[demersel]

I'm with SwobyJ on this one. After all, EDI is alive because if reaper code. that code is what makes her truly alive. And that is the only reason, why i allowed legion to upload it. code is software. Indoctrination is a function of the hardware. And yes, reapers have this code because they are not automatons - they are alive.

[DoomsdayDevice]

SwobyJ wrote...

I think it is telling as well.

But I also don't think of Reaper code to be the same as indoctrination. I think of it more as very very very advanced AI code.

Probably what made up the Intelligence before it roflpwned the Leviathans and made a nice Reaper of them with.

So do I think they could betray us? Yes! Do I think it would be the be-all-end-all with them? Not really, at all.

I consider EDI to be the light side, the Reapers as the dark side, and the Geth as the middle, and they can go either way, storytelling wise.

Again, I consider the development process of the AI to be as important as the result (heh).

We'd have to make sure the geth development is as positive as possible, if we actually want them to exist.

I agree for the most part.

However, IMO it's all about the 'achieving our own future' thing. All this Reaper technology is letting us develop along the paths the Reapers want, so they can control us and use us.

- The mass relays seemed like a pathway to knowledge and prosperity, yet they brought us the Reapers.
- The Crucible seemed like a pathway to peace, a magical way to defeat the Reapers. We don't know what it does or how it works (much like the relays), yet we build it anyway. We end up indoctrinated. (Or so it seems)
- Synthesis seems like this perfect way to achieve peace, nobody has to die, and the conflict will be over. It will, but not in the way we imagined. We end up living inside a Reaper virtual reality.
- The Reaper code Legion uses seems like this perfect thing we can use to let the Geth ascend to true AI status and achieve peace, yet again we follow the path / technology the Reapers want us to use. We can try to rationalize it by saying it was reverse engineered, but this is more headcanon than how it is explained in game. I think Reaper code is the synthetics version of indoctrination.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 23 novembre 2012 - 06:09 .

[demersel]

RavenEyry wrote...

demersel wrote...

I'm not saying it is secretly the main threat of the series. The reapers are.
But really, your sun suddenly going supernova for no apperent reason - that is pretty scary.

As I say every time the subject is broached: It may be a problem, but it's not Shepards problem. The same way you don't end batarian slavery or sort out all corruption on Illium.

yes. Indeed. it is not Shepard's problem. No Shepard for ME4 in this context suddenly makes more sense, doen't it? 
And i'm not saying it will be THE big problem in ME4. The reapers are likely to be it. But as a starting point for a new character to get into the story - that is good enough. Or as one of the subplots.  Why are you all getting so pissed off suddenly? 

Modifié par demersel, 23 novembre 2012 - 06:06 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Rifneno wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Killing the geth isn't inaction. You deliberately shoot Legion or the geth VI to sabotage his reaper-code upload. Just because the option isn't color-coded doesn't mean it isn't Renegade. It's in the bottom-left corner. It's Renegade. It just doesn't require any charm/intimidate skills to pick that option.

Choosing to destroy the geth is also not sucking at the game. I chose to destroy them deliberately. I wanted them death, just like I want the reapers death.


So, again, I have to ask: How does this translate to the indoctrination theory? For my Shepard there is no real reason NOT to pick the Destroy option in the end. Does that mean my Shepard is more resistant to indoctrination than any goody-two-shoes Paragon Shepard?

So does that mean that ruthlessness and cold calculus helps you to keep the Reapers out of your brain?

It means your Shepard sucks at logic. Which makes sense, because look who's playing him.  *snip*

I stoppe reading there. Ad hominem fallacies and slinging unnecessary childish insults is not a great way to start a discussion, it is in fact very childish. I'm most certainly not going to care what else you had to say in that post after acting like such a childish little douchebag. Seriously, grow up.

If you wish to discuss this topic with me you can try it again, this time in a nice and mature way.


Destroying the geth is the most logical thing to do. They are broken machines that act outside of their core programming. Lik the rogue VI on the moon, they need to be converted back to their original state, or else be destroyed. That's the logical, smart, cold calculus way of looking at the issue at hand.

[The Heretic of Time]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

demersel wrote...

What if ME4 is all about dark energy?

Okay, I'm ready to murder someone over this dark energy ****. Two questions. First, how many times do we have to go through that it makes no sense? None of this "yeah but if they ignore the entire reason it was an intriguing idea to begin with then it could work" drivel either. Second, where did this actually come from? Everyone keeps going on about how it was the original plan but I've never seen any actual evidence of that. It's just an out of control rumor as far as I can see. Everyone takes it as gospel because everyone else takes it as gospel.

Speaking of things that are stupid, page countdowns are stupid. And every post ever that goes "I don't think BW is that smart" without any points to back it up.

Wow Rif, I actually agree with you for a chance! That's quite rare.

Yes, This dark energy bullcrap is a rumor that has gone too far. I don't know who brought it up, but that person deserves a smack in the face. There is no evidence that BioWare originally planned to go anywhere with the whole dark energy bullcrap, none, zero, absolutely nothing. It's just something a fan made up based on Tali's recruiting mission in ME2 and something that was said in one of the Mass Effect novels. It's nothing but wild speculation from fans, but for some reason a lot of fans think this dark energy crap was indeed the original plot of Mass Effect, before Mac Walters supposedly ruined it. I tell you, it's bullshit.

And where is your evidence to prove this? Do you have facts or just your opinion to back it up? A lot of people throw their opinion up as fact on this board. Opinions are not facts.

In case you didn't realize it, the burden of proof is on you, not me.

if you're one of those people claiming that the dark energy bullcrap was BioWares original plan for Mass effect I have only one thing to say: Prove it. Show me the evidence that this is indeed more than just a rumor started by the fans themsleves.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 23 novembre 2012 - 06:10 .

[RavenEyry]

demersel wrote...
Why are you all getting so pissed off suddenly? 

:blink:I'm not, sorry if I gave that impression.

[Andromidius]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

if you're one of those people claiming that the dark energy bullcrap was BioWares original plan for Mass effect than I say: prove it. Show me the evidence that this is indeed more than just a rumor started by the fans themsleves. Prove it, I dare you, I double dare you.

Its been in multiple sources, stating that.  Not once has anyone from Bioware stated this isn't the case.

Hense while there's no conclusive evidence that was the case, there's even less to show it wasn't.  The fact Dark Energy is mentioned at all in the game suggests it MIGHT have once played a role in the story process, even if it never will.

[The Heretic of Time]

Andromidius wrote...

Its been in multiple sources, stating that.  Not once has anyone from Bioware stated this isn't the case.

Hense while there's no conclusive evidence that was the case, there's even less to show it wasn't.  The fact Dark Energy is mentioned at all in the game suggests it MIGHT have once played a role in the story process, even if it never will.

Please show me the sources where BioWare employees or writers themselves say that dark energy was the original plot for Mass Effect.

[ThisOneIsPunny]

BleedingUranium wrote...

ThisOneIsPunny wrote...
Also top? On my birth year page? 

Punny... you're in my top of page post spot.

Well since I am a very generous and kind person, I will share the top spot with you.


I also have no idea what to add to the current conversation besides opinions so I'm just.. uh..

I should go.

[BatmanTurian]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

demersel wrote...

What if ME4 is all about dark energy?

Okay, I'm ready to murder someone over this dark energy ****. Two questions. First, how many times do we have to go through that it makes no sense? None of this "yeah but if they ignore the entire reason it was an intriguing idea to begin with then it could work" drivel either. Second, where did this actually come from? Everyone keeps going on about how it was the original plan but I've never seen any actual evidence of that. It's just an out of control rumor as far as I can see. Everyone takes it as gospel because everyone else takes it as gospel.

Speaking of things that are stupid, page countdowns are stupid. And every post ever that goes "I don't think BW is that smart" without any points to back it up.

Wow Rif, I actually agree with you for a chance! That's quite rare.

Yes, This dark energy bullcrap is a rumor that has gone too far. I don't know who brought it up, but that person deserves a smack in the face. There is no evidence that BioWare originally planned to go anywhere with the whole dark energy bullcrap, none, zero, absolutely nothing. It's just something a fan made up based on Tali's recruiting mission in ME2 and something that was said in one of the Mass Effect novels. It's nothing but wild speculation from fans, but for some reason a lot of fans think this dark energy crap was indeed the original plot of Mass Effect, before Mac Walters supposedly ruined it. I tell you, it's bullshit.

And where is your evidence to prove this? Do you have facts or just your opinion to back it up? A lot of people throw their opinion up as fact on this board. Opinions are not facts.

In case you didn't realize it, the burden of proof is on you, not me.

if you're one of those people claiming that the dark energy bullcrap was BioWares original plan for Mass effect I have only one thing to say: Prove it. Show me the evidence that this is indeed more than just a rumor started by the fans themsleves.

Show me it isn't, because the burden of proof is on you if Drew hasn't denied it, buddy.

[RavenEyry]

Andromidius wrote...

Its been in multiple sources, stating that.

All the sources I can find are people that saw another source and wrote their own.

[demersel]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
I think Reaper code is the synthetics version of indoctrination.
I agree about EDI though.

Well, the talks with EDI in ME3 are really important because that is what formes her personality and opinions. Free will is really a **** - EDI for example has every possibility in coming to the reaper's way of thinking on her own. And so do the Geth. But it will be not because they are preprogrammed to or destined to - it would be because, due to summ of their experiences they would think of it as of the right way to do things. And our job in this is to give them some positive examples. That is why i think that EDI's story arc, and the piece between the geth and quarians are very important and real despite reaper code being involved.  It is a reach yes. It is a blind hope for the best. Yes. 90 % it will bite the galaxy in the ass. But so does curing the genophage, and letting the rachni live. But if it will bite us in the ass, it will be not because of reaper influence, but because things just turned out that way. 

[Andromidius]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Its been in multiple sources, stating that.  Not once has anyone from Bioware stated this isn't the case.

Hense while there's no conclusive evidence that was the case, there's even less to show it wasn't.  The fact Dark Energy is mentioned at all in the game suggests it MIGHT have once played a role in the story process, even if it never will.

Please show me the sources where BioWare employees or writers themselves say that dark energy was the original plot for Mass Effect.

Congratulations for not seeing my point.

Seriously, well done.  A master at work.  Only a pro could have retorted like that.

Here's the thing - if you can't disprove something, then you can't state its wrong.  If there's evidence suggesting something, you need counter evidence to oppose it.  You can't counter evidence, even shakey evidence, with no evidence.

But then you don't care about such things, do you?

[demersel]

Having rewatched the leviathan ending I am like 70% convinced that the intelligence the leviathan's created is GLYPH.
Because he still does fulfill his purpose - studying the development of civilisations. 
The intelligence created an army of pawns. Ok. How does a Shadow Broker operate? By creating an army of pawns.

And because they have same goals - Shadow Broker (GLYPH) keeps things at level. 
Reaper cycles keep things at level. 
that would make the reapers tools, but the beauty of that solution is that reapers are also life - they are alive, they have free will, etc. and the cycles for them is just the way they exist.  
This whole thing looks remarkably like a self balancing system, (and the one certain way to do it is to reset it everyonce in a while)  - so you introduce a new value to the system that does that.  
And in doing so you might as well remove the one thing that distabilises the system the most - leviathans.

This all sounds to me exaclty like GLYPH's MO. 
He has the motive, means, and opportunity. 

Modifié par demersel, 23 novembre 2012 - 06:26 .

[byne]

demersel wrote...

Having rewatched the leviathan ending I am like 70% convinced that the intelligence the leviathan's created is GLYPH.
Because he still does fulfill his purpose - studying the development of civilisations.

I still dont buy the whole "Glyph is evil" thing.

[The Heretic of Time]

Andromidius wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Its been in multiple sources, stating that.  Not once has anyone from Bioware stated this isn't the case.

Hense while there's no conclusive evidence that was the case, there's even less to show it wasn't.  The fact Dark Energy is mentioned at all in the game suggests it MIGHT have once played a role in the story process, even if it never will.

Please show me the sources where BioWare employees or writers themselves say that dark energy was the original plot for Mass Effect.

Congratulations for not seeing my point.

Seriously, well done.  A master at work.  Only a pro could have retorted like that.

Here's the thing - if you can't disprove something, then you can't state its wrong.  If there's evidence suggesting something, you need counter evidence to oppose it.  You can't counter evidence, even shakey evidence, with no evidence.

But then you don't care about such things, do you?

Don't go all "bravo" on me and trying to lecture me  while you don't even know what "burden of proof" means.

I guess you also believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, right? After all, I have no evidence to prove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster DOESN'T exist. So that means the Flying Spaghetti Monster DOES, or at least MIGHT exist, right?


Anyway, to get to the point: It's not up to ME to disprove anything, it's up to YOU to prove your claims. You claim things, but there is no evidence to oppose, not even "shakey" evidence. All you have is rumors. If there is even a shred of evidence then by all means, show it to me. Show me the evidence.

[The Heretic of Time]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

And where is your evidence to prove this? Do you have facts or just your opinion to back it up? A lot of people throw their opinion up as fact on this board. Opinions are not facts.

In case you didn't realize it, the burden of proof is on you, not me.

if you're one of those people claiming that the dark energy bullcrap was BioWares original plan for Mass effect I have only one thing to say: Prove it. Show me the evidence that this is indeed more than just a rumor started by the fans themsleves.

Show me it isn't, because the burden of proof is on you if Drew hasn't denied it, buddy.

I guess you too must believe in The Flying Spaghetti Monster, as there is no evidence to prove that he doesn't exist.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 23 novembre 2012 - 06:23 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

byne wrote...

demersel wrote...

Having rewatched the leviathan ending I am like 70% convinced that the intelligence the leviathan's created is GLYPH.
Because he still does fulfill his purpose - studying the development of civilisations. 
The intelligence created an army of pawns. Ok. How does a Shadow Broker operate? By creating an army of pawns.

And because they have same goals - Shadow Broker (GLYPH) keeps things at level. 
Reaper cycles keep things at level. 
that
would make the reapers tools, but the beauty of that solution is that
reapers are also life - they are alive, they have free will, etc. and
the cycles for them is just the way they exist.  
This whole thing
looks remarkably like a self balancing system, (and the one certain way
to do it is to reset it everyonce in a while)  - so you introduce a new
value to the system that does that.  
And in doing so you might as well remove the one thing that distabilises the system the most - leviathans.

This all sounds to me exaclty like GLYPH's MO. 
He has the motive, means, and opportunity.

I still dont buy the whole "Glyph is evil" thing.

I've said from the moment I first played Shadow Broker DLC: Glyph is the real shadow broker. Liara (or whoever came before her) just has the illusion (s)he is in control.

Glyph could be the main tool of the Reapers to gather intelligence.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 23 novembre 2012 - 06:31 .

[RavenEyry]

Heretic_Hanar is actually correct about who burden of proof goes to, not that the topic matters.