Ce sujet est ferméRaistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
And yet we see the breath scene.
But only if you got enough soldiers for the war effort
Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!
Débuté par
byne
, juil. 30 2012 07:09
#50126
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:18
Andromidius
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But only if you got enough soldiers for the war effort
Retour en haut
#50127
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:21
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archangel1996 wrote...
SwobyJ wrote...
I like EDI.
She clearly has more Control mentality in ME2, but upon getting EVA's body (so yes, through 'Control'), she then has the opportunity to humanize herself.
EVA's visor --> Blue
EDI's visor --> Red
Synthesis visor --> Green
When it comes to types of morality in Mass Effect, I don't think its as simple as good or evil.
But situationally, some choices are better than others.
Sometimes synthesis reaches better understanding between races, species, sapients.
Sometimes controlling things enables synthesis or destroy to be possible.
Sometimes one must destroy something that goes wrong via control or synthesis (as both pose big dangers as well).
It feels like all of this stuff masks the basic truth --> By picking Control or Synthesis, you're trusting the Reaper God Child to have the Reapers leave organics alone.
I don't equate the geth or EDI to the Reapers. I feel the whole ending is made to confuse us that the Reapers and Harbinger actually care about our morality.
Shepard's MIND (especially if the ending is in his mind) may care about it, but Harbinger already has his agenda and mocks us for anything but Destroy, imo.
Exactly, and then why shouldn't a God-Shepard(Control) arrive at the same conclusions of Casper? The Renegade-God is already there.....
Then why Casper says every benefit of Contro and Synthesis but just the cons of Destroy? Please......
Sorry for the english, i am Italian
That's fine.
And yeah, I believe Cayalyst even smirks in either Control or Synthesis, while he disappears in Destroy.
After watching all endings, how many cues should players get?
Even IF Synthesis and Control leads to the endings shown in the extended cut, we actually trusted the leader of the Reapers in order to reach them.
That's crazy.
(and I first picked Synthesis, mind you)
#50128
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:21
Raistlin Majare 1992
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Andromidius wrote...
Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
And yet we see the breath scene.
But only if you got enough soldiers for the war effort
With added (massive) bonus if you "saved" Anderson.
#50129
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:21
archangel1996
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Andromidius wrote...
Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
And yet we see the breath scene.
But only if you got enough soldiers for the war effort
Yeah, so to you Master Chief face exist just if you beat the game at Legendary?
#50130
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:27
acidic-ph0
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Hello IT thread! Gotta say, loving all the conspiracy theory stuff these threads generate XD
Although the realist in me subscribes to the "sh*tty writing theory" a part of me really wants to believe that the IT is true, and while playing through ME3 a second time (it took me 8 months to even look at the game again...) I came across this little bit of dialogue right at the beginning of the game when you first talk to Vega on the Citadel.
www.youtube.com/watch
I'm sure this has been linked before but searching for it in this thread would be a nightmare =P
Anyway... I thought this was pretty interesting in that if IT turns out to be true then having such dialogue near the beginning of the game is pretty heavy foreshadowing and actually pretty clever, forcing the player to have to replay the game and pick up all the hints. That, or it could have nothing to do with IT at all and is just a simple "face-value" observation that vega makes.
So yeah, sorry if this is like a millionth repost of this, but it was a pretty big head-tilt moment for me when I heard these lines a second time so maybe it'll be new for someone else too.
Although the realist in me subscribes to the "sh*tty writing theory" a part of me really wants to believe that the IT is true, and while playing through ME3 a second time (it took me 8 months to even look at the game again...) I came across this little bit of dialogue right at the beginning of the game when you first talk to Vega on the Citadel.
www.youtube.com/watch
I'm sure this has been linked before but searching for it in this thread would be a nightmare =P
Anyway... I thought this was pretty interesting in that if IT turns out to be true then having such dialogue near the beginning of the game is pretty heavy foreshadowing and actually pretty clever, forcing the player to have to replay the game and pick up all the hints. That, or it could have nothing to do with IT at all and is just a simple "face-value" observation that vega makes.
So yeah, sorry if this is like a millionth repost of this, but it was a pretty big head-tilt moment for me when I heard these lines a second time so maybe it'll be new for someone else too.
Modifié par acidic-ph0, 23 novembre 2012 - 09:27 .
#50131
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:27
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archangel1996 wrote...
Andromidius wrote...
Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
And yet we see the breath scene.
But only if you got enough soldiers for the war effort
Yeah, so to you Master Chief face exist just if you beat the game at Legendary?
Obviously!
My point was that Shepard only magically survives if your EMS is high enough. Which is obviously nonsense from a literal perspective, which puts everything else into doubt.
Hense IT was born. Without that little scene IT wouldn't have anywhere near as solid a case. The ending would just be weird. So for Bioware to put it in, and then leave it in, is... Very telling.
#50132
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:27
Restrider
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Edit : Realized that BatmanTurian already settled this.Rifneno wrote...
BatmanTurian wrote...
Rifneno wrote...
BatmanTurian wrote...
And where is your evidence to prove this? Do you have facts or just your opinion to back it up? A lot of people throw their opinion up as fact on this board. Opinions are not facts.
As sick as it makes me to defend HH on anything, the burden of proof is not on him. It's on anyone that claims dark energy was the original plot. If you want to say dark energy has or had some major role, it's up to you to prove it. Not the other way around.
The burden of proof is on both parties, if anything.
This isn't hard to understand. You're making the claim that X is true, it's up to you to prove it. In all the defenses of this stupid dark energy crap, I haven't seen one link to anything remotely resembling proof. That's pretty damn telling right there. Everyone has just accepted it as true without putting any actual thought into it.
Okay, I know I shouldn't do it, but I'll throw my hat into the ring:
Dark Energy is in the game. That is a given, nothing to discuss here. Tali's RM and the discussions with Kal Reegar during the trial imply that. It is also mentioned in ME3 (Dr. Verners dissertation for example). This plot was started and never resolved. There are other plots in the trilogy that were started and never resolved (the data in ME2 that you could either give to the Alliance, Cerberus or keep it for example).
Was Dark Energy a major part of the plot? We don't know...
Was Dark Energy never part of the plot/game? No, see above...
Case closed...
Modifié par Restrider, 23 novembre 2012 - 09:30 .
#50133
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:29
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archangel1996 wrote...
Andromidius wrote...
Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
And yet we see the breath scene.
But only if you got enough soldiers for the war effort
Yeah, so to you Master Chief face exist just if you beat the game at Legendary?
That's actually interesting.
It's quite possible that the breath scene itself is more of an easter egg, and Shepard actually survives, with HOPE INTACT, in all three endings.
Maybe only in the higher EMS ones sure, but still, he could survive.
It's just in Control and Synthesis, he's been turned into the enemy in some form, while in Destroy, he at least partially struggles against it.
I would love a ME3 expansion to basically be the 'Rakata Prime til Star Forge' part of the story, to put it in KOTOR terms.
Shepard learns the horrible truth and deals with it in many ways, and the war assets/choices are reflected more clearly... and more characters die, perhaps due to Shepard himself. I think visiting Rio would be part of that.
But anyway, my point is that the breath and stargazer scenes could be just an extension of the story, but not necessarily the direct narrative. Shep could wake up in all High EMS endings, for all we know, but High EMS Destroy is the 'you're the hero rising out of the rubble' ending that happens in ME1 (Council Chambers) and ME2 (Collector Base).
#50134
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:31
Andromidius
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Restrider wrote...
Was Dark Energy a major part of the plot? We don't know...
Was Dark Energy never part of the plot/game? No, see above...
Case closed...
Twitter links posted earlier suggest that they were originally going to play a part. And they are the proof demanded, from Drew himself.
https://twitter.com/...282864288960512
Modifié par Andromidius, 23 novembre 2012 - 09:32 .
#50135
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:32
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acidic-ph0 wrote...
Hello IT thread! Gotta say, loving all the conspiracy theory stuff these threads generate XD
Although the realist in me subscribes to the "sh*tty writing theory" a part of me really wants to believe that the IT is true, and while playing through ME3 a second time (it took me 8 months to even look at the game again...) I came across this little bit of dialogue right at the beginning of the game when you first talk to Vega on the Citadel.
www.youtube.com/watch
I'm sure this has been linked before but searching for it in this thread would be a nightmare =P
Anyway... I thought this was pretty interesting in that if IT turns out to be true then having such dialogue near the beginning of the game is pretty heavy foreshadowing and actually pretty clever, forcing the player to have to replay the game and pick up all the hints. That, or it could have nothing to do with IT at all and is just a simple "face-value" observation that vega makes.
So yeah, sorry if this is like a millionth repost of this, but it was a pretty big head-tilt moment for me when I heard these lines a second time so maybe it'll be new for someone else too.
It's been noted many times before by now, but don't worry about that.
ME1 itself had far MORE hidden foreshadowing about its own plot revelations, but you would have had to investigate very deeply if you wanted to find out before going to Virmire and Ilos.
To compare, IT has a lot of solid ground to stand on. We just don't know what happens AFTER, and that can be frustrating. Thanks EA $$$$
#50136
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:34
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Hey Banshee, are you going to give us access to your top-post-collection in some form? Would really like to dig through it.BansheeOwnage wrote...
For sure. Doesn't that just tell you something. Especially considering BW never denied IT and encourages us to keep thousands of page long threads about it alive?401 Kill wrote...
I bet those literalists expected this thread to die out. I'm glad this place is the strongest thread out there.
#50137
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:35
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Andromidius wrote...
archangel1996 wrote...
Andromidius wrote...
Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
And yet we see the breath scene.
But only if you got enough soldiers for the war effort
Yeah, so to you Master Chief face exist just if you beat the game at Legendary?
Obviously!
My point was that Shepard only magically survives if your EMS is high enough. Which is obviously nonsense from a literal perspective, which puts everything else into doubt.
Hense IT was born. Without that little scene IT wouldn't have anywhere near as solid a case. The ending would just be weird. So for Bioware to put it in, and then leave it in, is... Very telling.
It feels like Bioware tried very hard at straddling the line between everything being taken at face value, and an obvious showing that Shepard was undergoing indoctrination.
Go too far to the left, and people won't care for buying DLC (as one of my best friends put it, "The story is over, why should I care about DLC?", which is funny because he also complains "Why put indoctrination clues in the DLC? You put stuff like that in the main game! Screw them." .... ugh).
Go too far to the right, and people massively wake up to the idea that they got an incomplete game and Shepard never actually won the war. He maybe won against indoctrination, but we don't see anything beyond that.
#50138
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:35
masster blaster
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PhO ya, but it's nice to have new faces around here. Feel free to post here if you like. Also we are not a conspircy thread. Althoug I do Like how Leviathan is about Indoctrination/ Leviathans getting into Shepards mind with easy/ how the whole ending can be in Shepards. And the the achivenments for at least two are consipicy achivments. Ya Bioware listnes, but it was more of a hint hint to ITers that ya this was for you, as well as for others, but this 1 dlc should give you all you need for the ending to be fake/ Indoctrination attmept on Shepard.
#50139
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:37
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ph0, here's a nice segment of a video (well, a music video?) to get your brain juices flowing: youtu.be/aSJujqOsBTk
#50140
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:38
Andromidius
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SwobyJ wrote...
It feels like Bioware tried very hard at straddling the line between everything being taken at face value, and an obvious showing that Shepard was undergoing indoctrination.
Go too far to the left, and people won't care for buying DLC (as one of my best friends put it, "The story is over, why should I care about DLC?", which is funny because he also complains "Why put indoctrination clues in the DLC? You put stuff like that in the main game! Screw them." .... ugh).
Go too far to the right, and people massively wake up to the idea that they got an incomplete game and Shepard never actually won the war. He maybe won against indoctrination, but we don't see anything beyond that.
Agreed. Problem being of course that some people will pick up on clues more easily then others, so for some of us its obvious now and for others nothing short of spilling the beans directly will convince them.
Very tough job indeed. It even took me some convincing before I agreed this is definately the case, rather then just a poorly written ending done by a single man with an ego complex. Dropping the hate was very hard.
#50141
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:38
DoomsdayDevice
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Restrider wrote...
Hey Banshee, are you going to give us access to your top-post-collection in some form? Would really like to dig through it.BansheeOwnage wrote...
For401 Kill wrote...
I bet those literalists expected this thread to die out. I'm glad this place is the strongest thread out there.
sure. Doesn't that just tell you something. Especially considering
BW never denied IT and encourages us to keep thousands of page long
threads about it alive?
I'm sure Banshee (dis)missed a lot of good stuff too.
*runs*
Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 23 novembre 2012 - 09:42 .
#50142
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:38
BatmanTurian
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.badmojo88 wrote...
...more IT really? please someone rick roll this now and put an end to this suffering! lol
If you disagree, state your reasons why. Otherwise, leave us to do what the developers intended: speculation.
1. Developers intend speculation and purposefully make the ending ambiguous
2. Playerbase cries bad writing and that everyone should take the ending at face value
3. Playerbase does not realize they are doing the exact opposite of what the developers intended. Make fun of the speculators anyway.
4. PROFIT???
Modifié par BatmanTurian, 23 novembre 2012 - 09:52 .
#50143
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:41
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Andromidius wrote...
SwobyJ wrote...
It feels like Bioware tried very hard at straddling the line between everything being taken at face value, and an obvious showing that Shepard was undergoing indoctrination.
Go too far to the left, and people won't care for buying DLC (as one of my best friends put it, "The story is over, why should I care about DLC?", which is funny because he also complains "Why put indoctrination clues in the DLC? You put stuff like that in the main game! Screw them." .... ugh).
Go too far to the right, and people massively wake up to the idea that they got an incomplete game and Shepard never actually won the war. He maybe won against indoctrination, but we don't see anything beyond that.
Agreed. Problem being of course that some people will pick up on clues more easily then others, so for some of us its obvious now and for others nothing short of spilling the beans directly will convince them.
Very tough job indeed. It even took me some convincing before I agreed this is definately the case, rather then just a poorly written ending done by a single man with an ego complex. Dropping the hate was very hard.
I can't wait for my boyfriend to finish the game. He hasn't even finished the Tuchanka arc yet
And he'll still have Leviathan and Omega to play, as I'm probably buying Omega. Ugh!
So far, I can barely tell him anything, and the theories I have, have no context for him.
It was even hard to explain to him how Shepard's proximity to Object Rho could be, you know, dangerous?
#50144
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:43
Andromidius
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SwobyJ wrote...
I can't wait for my boyfriend to finish the game. He hasn't even finished the Tuchanka arc yet
Slow gamer, or doesn't have much time to play?
Because he seems to have been playing for weeks now!
#50145
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:48
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Andromidius wrote...
SwobyJ wrote...
I can't wait for my boyfriend to finish the game. He hasn't even finished the Tuchanka arc yet
Slow gamer, or doesn't have much time to play?
Because he seems to have been playing for weeks now!
He doesn't have much time, and slow gamer.
He spends only half the week at home, and the other half at family (traditionally tight family). Works 9-5 weekdays, works to try to start a business himself.
And he takes his time in the game. He'll forget about details, but I can be sure he's at least SEEN the details.
The difference between myself and him is that I look at 'big picture' narrative things (my weakness with IT is that I wouldn't catch the little art and sound details, because I'm focused on story and script)
...while he is focused on the experience himself. He's very hear/see/feel oriented, so he's very 'in the moment' when playing a game.
It'll probably be only after he finishes the game and all DLC, and waits a few days to digest it, before he even knows what the hell I'm talking about.
I wish I could get myself as 'in the moment' as he does, but I wouldn't trade my story analysis skills for it. Immersion is everything for me, but just not in the way of it tickling my senses, but instead I appreciate a fictional world I can 'internally write about' in my head.
Most nights that he has time here, he'll play 1-3 hours of Mass Effect. It's just some sittings will be him exploring the Citadel for the umpteenth time
, or reading the codex, or doing a boring N7 mission.
#50146
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:49
Restrider
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Check out the videos in the OP (I especially recommend the Avacoyos "there is only one choice" video [100% sure I mispelled it]) and the IT Top Ten list in my signature for further information. And then I recommend you to play the trilogy or ME3 with IT in mind. It will give you a new perspective and may turn the disastrous feelings you had while playing ME3 knowing the literal endings into fridge brilliance.acidic-ph0 wrote...
Hello IT thread! Gotta say, loving all the conspiracy theory stuff these threads generate XD
Although the realist in me subscribes to the "sh*tty writing theory" a part of me really wants to believe that the IT is true, and while playing through ME3 a second time (it took me 8 months to even look at the game again...) I came across this little bit of dialogue right at the beginning of the game when you first talk to Vega on the Citadel.
www.youtube.com/watch
I'm sure this has been linked before but searching for it in this thread would be a nightmare =P
Anyway... I thought this was pretty interesting in that if IT turns out to be true then having such dialogue near the beginning of the game is pretty heavy foreshadowing and actually pretty clever, forcing the player to have to replay the game and pick up all the hints. That, or it could have nothing to do with IT at all and is just a simple "face-value" observation that vega makes.
So yeah, sorry if this is like a millionth repost of this, but it was a pretty big head-tilt moment for me when I heard these lines a second time so maybe it'll be new for someone else too.
#50147
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 09:52
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Restrider wrote...
Check out the videos in the OP (I especially recommend the Avacoyos "there is only one choice" video [100% sure I mispelled it]) and the IT Top Ten list in my signature for further information. And then I recommend you to play the trilogy or ME3 with IT in mind. It will give you a new perspective and may turn the disastrous feelings you had while playing ME3 knowing the literal endings into fridge brilliance.acidic-ph0 wrote...
Hello IT thread! Gotta say, loving all the conspiracy theory stuff these threads generate XD
Although the realist in me subscribes to the "sh*tty writing theory" a part of me really wants to believe that the IT is true, and while playing through ME3 a second time (it took me 8 months to even look at the game again...) I came across this little bit of dialogue right at the beginning of the game when you first talk to Vega on the Citadel.
www.youtube.com/watch
I'm sure this has been linked before but searching for it in this thread would be a nightmare =P
Anyway... I thought this was pretty interesting in that if IT turns out to be true then having such dialogue near the beginning of the game is pretty heavy foreshadowing and actually pretty clever, forcing the player to have to replay the game and pick up all the hints. That, or it could have nothing to do with IT at all and is just a simple "face-value" observation that vega makes.
So yeah, sorry if this is like a millionth repost of this, but it was a pretty big head-tilt moment for me when I heard these lines a second time so maybe it'll be new for someone else too.
I know it keeps getting brought up, but if there isn't an expansion or big DLC that reveals this stuff, I'll be ticked off.
So far, its been good. Unlike many gamers, I'm not impatient about this stuff, and I appreciate the supposed nods towards IT in Extended Cut and Leviathan.
I just wonder about Omega.
#50148
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 10:06
byne
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Yknow, I was thinking about the whole 'No Collectors in Omega' thing.
If, at some point in the DLC, we went through the Omega 4 Relay, and fought Collectors there, they wouldnt technically be in Omega, would they?
If, at some point in the DLC, we went through the Omega 4 Relay, and fought Collectors there, they wouldnt technically be in Omega, would they?
#50149
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 10:08
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Yep, that's what I was thinking, too. It's just not clear if they meant Omega DLC or Omega as location in the galaxy...byne wrote...
Yknow, I was thinking about the whole 'No Collectors in Omega' thing.
If, at some point in the DLC, we went through the Omega 4 Relay, and fought Collectors there, they wouldnt technically be in Omega, would they?
Edit: Top
Regardless, I wouldn't hold my breath, though. I guess Omega is more the Lair of the Shadow Broker of ME3. It'll be fun to play, but will not contribute that much to the themes of the endings (not as much as Overlord, Arrival or Leviathan). On the other hand, who knows...
Modifié par Restrider, 23 novembre 2012 - 10:09 .
#50150
Posté 23 novembre 2012 - 10:09
BatmanTurian
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Yeah, but I thought Omega was moved to the galaxy core to collect the remnants of the base or the base itself.byne wrote...
Yknow, I was thinking about the whole 'No Collectors in Omega' thing.
If, at some point in the DLC, we went through the Omega 4 Relay, and fought Collectors there, they wouldnt technically be in Omega, would they?
