80611 réponses à ce sujet

[MegumiAzusa]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
True but have you ever thought about they maybe just intended the idea of IT, but in the end it's not what happens? To have additional layers to your last choice maybe? I mean my stance is about that they intended for it to be true or not based on the player, but changed that with the EC where IT is in the form that is discussed here simply isn't possible.

I don't doubt for one second that IT in it's current form is not what Bioware intended.  However I also don't doubt for one second that Bioware intended indoctrination to play a role in the final scenes.

In fact, we know for a fact that Bioware originally intended for indoctrination to play a part (Final Hours app), we just don't know what that part was, how big a role it had or how deep into the story it goes.

Indoctrination Theory is an interpretation, an attempt to make sense of the hints, clues and questions that Bioware left us with throughout the game.  It's speculation - and that's something that Bioware definitely DID intend.

I never said indoctrination isn't at play. It certainly is. I said the choice to activate the crucible is real and it doesn't matter which one you pick as long as you choose to do so. That this isn't that way is a huge point in the current definition of IT.

[masster blaster]

Also notice when Legion got angry his eye changed. It went to red. It's like his other side finally showed. Yet I don't believe the Geth are evil at all. If they were, then they could have killed Shepard during the Firebase Hydra mission.

[Rifneno]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Okay guys, so this is officially my next speculation.

What if the Geth consensus mission is a foreshadowing of the ending?

What if Legion is showing you false images of the events that caused the Geth-Quarian war?

(Just like the catalyst is showing you false images in a virtual environment)

What if he is showing you those images in hopes of influencing your decision to let them use the Reaper code?

That would explain why the decision to let Legion upload the Reaper code seems exactly like synthesis.

He sacrifices himself to achieve ascension through Reaper technology!

What if Legion was a Reaper agent from the get-go?

What if he only donned the N7 armour to manipulate you into thinking he's your fanboy?

(Just like the catalyst appears as the child to gain your trust)

What if the whole 'erasing of Reaper code' from the Geth consensus was a complete charade? As we can see, you can never really eradicate it completely. The 'roots' will remain.

Just like the whole 'destroying/controlling' the Reapers thing you do in the end is only an illusion?

Mind = blown?

Yeah, something blows alright.

[Dwailing]

Wait a minute. Megumi, you're saying that Legion attacking you because you're about to LET ITS PEOPLE BE WIPED OUT is... unjustified? Oo

[badmojo88]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

badmojo88 wrote...
ok heres my point, all this drama about IT, now 'what if' just bare with me 'what if' they add nothing more after omega but multi-player packs? considering what happened with DA2 its not a far reach either. You must keep in mind this is a game dictated by marketing guidelines, so even IF i.t. was real it might not get put in the game by the time bioware would be forced to move on by EA, and theres the chance IT is just a prayer from disappointed players. Hell I know i was let down, but I dont attack people about it. Just by questioning IT at all ive been attack on every post. People say 'give me proof lets see bioware deny IT' then they dismiss the proof, heres the catch IT itself has no proof, no open declaration by bioware that it is so, and sadly IT people, the burden of proof is on you not the people who doubt. proclaiming something is doesnt make it so.

OK.  To your point - IT isn't reliant on DLC, or any changes to the game.  It's an interpretation of the endings.  An attempt to make sense of what we see in the endings, using what we've witnessed, observed and learned through the course of the Mass Effect trilogy.

Indoctrination Theory doesn't require Bioware to reveal it.

Of course, we want Bioware to reveal it, we hope they'll reveal it - because that would mean they've had a plan regarding the end of the game (and the series) all along.  But it isn't necessary.

As to the "proof", again, there's no conclusive proof one way or another.  Bioware haven't said yes, and they haven't said no.  Because they WANT players to speculate on their intent, they WANT players to try to interpet the endings.  So all we can do is build a case for or against.  On the first page of the thread you'll find a huge amount of material gathered from within the game itself that appears to support IT.  Whether you choose to accept it or not is entirely up to you.  However, if you want to refute IT, or disprove it, then you need to address the material and tell us why you don't accept it.

In short, it comes back to the point I made earlier - you can question IT all you want.  We're fine with that.  So long as you actually give us questions to answer, and don't just come up with trite and inconsequential comments like

badmojo88 wrote...
...more IT really? please someone rick roll this now and put an end to this suffering! lol

hmm you raise a good point unlike the other ywo children who seem to like trolling me. For one my original comment was not meant to be offensive rather point out bickering over IT was silly- the ending of mass effect 3 was a cheap rip-off  from Issac Isomoff's Irobot and Robot Carnaval. Here is why the reapers must destory yadda yadda yadda.... and here 3 choices (4 with EC)  -but only the choice "we" give you- casey hudson wanted "to make an ending people would debate over endlessly" all the while he goes to the bank and no longer cares about mass effect. The way I look at IT and the brickering over it is like watching people dance to a cheap puppet master (hudson)  -and as for needing to be confirmed, sadly yes it does, because without that confirmation-being it is JUST a video game- players must accept the game at face value rather then explore some deeper hidden meaning. ultimately, and sadly because i love mass effect i do, mass effect may and in some ways is already the stuff of ****tale party jokes -"oh did you hear? they me3'd the ending of that one!" 

[BatmanTurian]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

badmojo88 wrote...

ok heres my point, all this drama about IT, now 'what if' just bare with me 'what if' they add nothing more after omega but multi-player packs? considering what happened with DA2 its not a far reach either. You must keep in mind this is a game dictated by marketing guidelines, so even IF i.t. was real it might not get put in the game by the time bioware would be forced to move on by EA, and theres the chance IT is just a prayer from disappointed players. Hell I know i was let down, but I dont attack people about it. Just by questioning IT at all ive been attack on every post. People say 'give me proof lets see bioware deny IT' then they dismiss the proof, heres the catch IT itself has no proof, no open declaration by bioware that it is so, and sadly IT people, the burden of proof is on you not the people who doubt. proclaiming something is doesnt make it so.

IT has no absolute proof but it has evidence, a whole page of it, which you apparently ignored on your way to troll this thread.

Proving something right is hard, proving something wrong only needs one example that shows the error.

Your frequent passive-agressive, pessimistic, negative act is getting old really fast. The same goes for Estebanus.

[umadcommander]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Okay guys, so this is officially my next speculation.

What if the Geth consensus mission is a foreshadowing of the ending?

What if Legion is showing you false images of the events that caused the Geth-Quarian war?

(Just like the catalyst is showing you false images in a virtual environment)

What if he is showing you those images in hopes of influencing your decision to let them use the Reaper code?

(Just like the catalyst is trying to influence your decision)

That would explain why the decision to let Legion upload the Reaper code seems exactly like synthesis.

He sacrifices himself to achieve ascension through Reaper technology!

What if Legion was a Reaper agent from the get-go?

What if he only donned the N7 armour to manipulate you into thinking he's your fanboy?

(Just like the catalyst appears as the child to gain your trust)

What if the whole 'erasing of Reaper code' from the Geth consensus was a complete charade? As we can see, you can never really eradicate it completely. The 'roots' will remain.

Just like the whole 'destroying/controlling' the Reapers thing you do in the end is only an illusion?

Is the entire Geth consensus mission completely foreshadowing the end?

HAVE WE BEEN TRICKED TWICE IN THE SAME GAME WITH THE SAME TRICK BY BIOWARE?

Mind = blown?

i have a hard time believing that seeing as their are no negative effects of helping the geth

[Restrider]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Okay guys, so this is officially my next speculation.

What if the Geth consensus mission is a foreshadowing of the ending?

What if Legion is showing you false images of the events that caused the Geth-Quarian war?

(Just like the catalyst is showing you false images in a virtual environment)

What if he is showing you those images in hopes of influencing your decision to let them use the Reaper code?

(Just like the catalyst is trying to influence your decision)

That would explain why the decision to let Legion upload the Reaper code seems exactly like synthesis.

He sacrifices himself to achieve ascension through Reaper technology!

What if Legion was a Reaper agent from the get-go?

What if he only donned the N7 armour to manipulate you into thinking he's your fanboy?

(Just like the catalyst appears as the child to gain your trust)

What if the whole 'erasing of Reaper code' from the Geth consensus was a complete charade? As we can see, you can never really eradicate it completely. The 'roots' will remain.

Just like the whole 'destroying/controlling' the Reapers thing you do in the end is only an illusion?

Is the entire Geth consensus mission completely foreshadowing the end?

HAVE WE BEEN TRICKED TWICE IN THE SAME GAME WITH THE SAME TRICK BY BIOWARE?

Mind = blown?

REPOSTED SINCE IT GOT SWEPT AWAY
@DD
But didn't Tali and Admiral Zael'Koris kind of confirm that they
started turning the Geth off, once they started to evolve to something
the Quarians did not desire to have?
And Zael'Koris declares these actions as unethical and wrong.

I
can see the different approaches to handle the Geth uprising, but I
think that it is confirmed from the Geth and the Quarians that the
Quarians can be seen as aggressors - rightfully or not.

[Dwailing]

DD, with all due respect (a lot), I think your ideas about the geth right now are FRAKKING NUTS. I respect your right to an opinion, but I don't agree with you in the slightest.

[masster blaster]

Holy crap what if Legion is the Geth bad guess. I mean what if the space station was the non Indoctrinated Geth. Holy crap " a house divided." It makes sense, yet this is very very I don't know....

[DoomsdayDevice]

umadcommander wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Okay guys, so this is officially my next speculation.

What if the Geth consensus mission is a foreshadowing of the ending?

What if Legion is showing you false images of the events that caused the Geth-Quarian war?

(Just like the catalyst is showing you false images in a virtual environment)

What if he is showing you those images in hopes of influencing your decision to let them use the Reaper code?

(Just like the catalyst is trying to influence your decision)

That would explain why the decision to let Legion upload the Reaper code seems exactly like synthesis.

He sacrifices himself to achieve ascension through Reaper technology!

What if Legion was a Reaper agent from the get-go?

What if he only donned the N7 armour to manipulate you into thinking he's your fanboy?

(Just like the catalyst appears as the child to gain your trust)

What if the whole 'erasing of Reaper code' from the Geth consensus was a complete charade? As we can see, you can never really eradicate it completely. The 'roots' will remain.

Just like the whole 'destroying/controlling' the Reapers thing you do in the end is only an illusion?

Is the entire Geth consensus mission completely foreshadowing the end?

HAVE WE BEEN TRICKED TWICE IN THE SAME GAME WITH THE SAME TRICK BY BIOWARE?

Mind = blown?

i have a hard time believing that seeing as their are no negative effects of helping the geth

Just you wait until the next game.

The decision to let Legion use the code never sat well with me.

[Restrider]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
I never said indoctrination isn't at play. It certainly is. I said the choice to activate the crucible is real and it doesn't matter which one you pick as long as you choose to do so. That this isn't that way is a huge point in the current definition of IT.

There have been several posts of Raistlin, others and me about several actions that could break Control/Synthesis Shepards free from indoctrination (Rachni Queen, Liara, Shiala/Feros colonists, Leviathan,...) at a certain cost (like the counter to get Quarian/Geth peace).
So. There are variations in the IT.

[Rifneno]

Dwailing wrote...

DD, with all due respect (a lot), I think your ideas about the geth right now are FRAKKING NUTS. I respect your right to an opinion, but I don't agree with you in the slightest.

This.  If nothing else, at least condense the idea down to its core: the catalyst is totally right about synthetics and conflict.

[MegumiAzusa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Okay guys, so this is officially my next speculation.

What if the Geth consensus mission is a foreshadowing of the ending?

What if Legion is showing you false images of the events that caused the Geth-Quarian war?

(Just like the catalyst is showing you false images in a virtual environment)

What if he is showing you those images in hopes of influencing your decision to let them use the Reaper code?

(Just like the catalyst is trying to influence your decision)

That would explain why the decision to let Legion upload the Reaper code seems exactly like synthesis.

He sacrifices himself to achieve ascension through Reaper technology!

What if Legion was a Reaper agent from the get-go?

What if he only donned the N7 armour to manipulate you into thinking he's your fanboy?

(Just like the catalyst appears as the child to gain your trust)

What if the whole 'erasing of Reaper code' from the Geth consensus was a complete charade? As we can see, you can never really eradicate it completely. The 'roots' will remain.

Just like the whole 'destroying/controlling' the Reapers thing you do in the end is only an illusion?

Is the entire Geth consensus mission completely foreshadowing the end?

HAVE WE BEEN TRICKED TWICE IN THE SAME GAME WITH THE SAME TRICK BY BIOWARE?

Mind = blown?

Also you can take Reaper code samples with you to help the one commando to predict how Reapers "think". Why not ask EDI for some, as she says herself in some random blurb she has them anyway as she needs them to trick the Omega 4 relay. Which is also strange in itself as to how can Cerberus vessels use it? (something I found pretty strange since the first time I saw TIMs ships zapping in right after the Normandy flies away)

[demersel]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

GhostShadow115 wrote...

byne wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

So did you all see that response from a BioWare dev that all the writers are going to be involved with the next DLC?

It's called a Citadel DLC... we DO end up at the Citadel at the end of the game.. this could be very interesting.

I wonder if the Citadel DLC will include the cut Citadel quest with Xen where she accuses Tali of sleeping with Shepard.

What...?

http://social.biowar...ndex/11773629/1

Whoa, I completely forgot about this. thanks for re-posting!

Also, Shepard: "The city on Earth where I grew up was hard and dirty. I can see it as a war zone."

(unrelated, I know)

Even back in ME1 I always got the impression that Earthborn shepard was from Rio. I don't know where that idea come from, but it was certainly back in the times of ME1. Maybe something in the Red Sand quest...

[MegumiAzusa]

Dwailing wrote...

Wait a minute. Megumi, you're saying that Legion attacking you because you're about to LET ITS PEOPLE BE WIPED OUT is... unjustified? Oo

It doesn't make sense as Legion in ME2 said using Reaper tech isn't something the true Geth would ever do, regardless of consequence. And now it physically attacks you to proceed to do exactly that.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Dwailing wrote...

DD, with all due respect (a lot), I think your ideas about the geth right now are FRAKKING NUTS. I respect your right to an opinion, but I don't agree with you in the slightest.

It's just speculation, chill out.

Think about it, the similarities are there.

Give me good counter arguments.

I'm just thinking out loud here.

It would be amazing if it was true. It would basically mean Bioware tricked us twice with the same thing. Only the first time, they're telling us it's a virtual environment.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 24 novembre 2012 - 12:48 .

[BatmanTurian]

badmojo88 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

badmojo88 wrote...
ok heres my point, all this drama about IT, now 'what if' just bare with me 'what if' they add nothing more after omega but multi-player packs? considering what happened with DA2 its not a far reach either. You must keep in mind this is a game dictated by marketing guidelines, so even IF i.t. was real it might not get put in the game by the time bioware would be forced to move on by EA, and theres the chance IT is just a prayer from disappointed players. Hell I know i was let down, but I dont attack people about it. Just by questioning IT at all ive been attack on every post. People say 'give me proof lets see bioware deny IT' then they dismiss the proof, heres the catch IT itself has no proof, no open declaration by bioware that it is so, and sadly IT people, the burden of proof is on you not the people who doubt. proclaiming something is doesnt make it so.

OK.  To your point - IT isn't reliant on DLC, or any changes to the game.  It's an interpretation of the endings.  An attempt to make sense of what we see in the endings, using what we've witnessed, observed and learned through the course of the Mass Effect trilogy.

Indoctrination Theory doesn't require Bioware to reveal it.

Of course, we want Bioware to reveal it, we hope they'll reveal it - because that would mean they've had a plan regarding the end of the game (and the series) all along.  But it isn't necessary.

As to the "proof", again, there's no conclusive proof one way or another.  Bioware haven't said yes, and they haven't said no.  Because they WANT players to speculate on their intent, they WANT players to try to interpet the endings.  So all we can do is build a case for or against.  On the first page of the thread you'll find a huge amount of material gathered from within the game itself that appears to support IT.  Whether you choose to accept it or not is entirely up to you.  However, if you want to refute IT, or disprove it, then you need to address the material and tell us why you don't accept it.

In short, it comes back to the point I made earlier - you can question IT all you want.  We're fine with that.  So long as you actually give us questions to answer, and don't just come up with trite and inconsequential comments like

badmojo88 wrote...
...more IT really? please someone rick roll this now and put an end to this suffering! lol

hmm you raise a good point unlike the other ywo children who seem to like trolling me. For one my original comment was not meant to be offensive rather point out bickering over IT was silly- the ending of mass effect 3 was a cheap rip-off  from Issac Isomoff's Irobot and Robot Carnaval. Here is why the reapers must destory yadda yadda yadda.... and here 3 choices (4 with EC)  -but only the choice "we" give you- casey hudson wanted "to make an ending people would debate over endlessly" all the while he goes to the bank and no longer cares about mass effect. The way I look at IT and the brickering over it is like watching people dance to a cheap puppet master (hudson)  -and as for needing to be confirmed, sadly yes it does, because without that confirmation-being it is JUST a video game- players must accept the game at face value rather then explore some deeper hidden meaning. ultimately, and sadly because i love mass effect i do, mass effect may and in some ways is already the stuff of ****tale party jokes -"oh did you hear? they me3'd the ending of that one!" 

Mass Effect isn't just a video game, it's a visual novel. This is something you apparently don't understand.

Also, I'm not a child. And I'm not the one who walked in here with fossilized talking points claiming Bioware has denied IT when they have gone out of their way to support it in their own cryptic way. Leviathan is practically a shout-out to us.
I don't call for Bioware to throw a rick roll to Literalists or put them out of their misery.

You walked in here with a troll post, you get treated like a troll. Maybe try moderating yourself next time.

[masster blaster]

I don't believe the Geth are bad, or working with the Reapers, but it was fear of dying that the Reapers used against the Geth. In all it doesn't matter. We kill Reapers, and we go home that's it. They can porimse me with stuff all they want, it's a bullet to the head for Harbiner.

[demersel]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

The decision to let Legion upload the Reaper code is a good example. I agree with you that it's the renegade option to not allow it and side with the Quarians. I also agree that it's wiser to side with the Quarians, but my reason for that is that I believe the Geth have been compromised. I think the Reaper code is the synthetics version of indoctrination, and I also think Legion using the Reaper code is analogous to choosing synthesis, sacrificing oneself to achieve ascension through Reaper technology. No thanks. It just screams 'WRONG'.

I absolutely agree with you on that. There were MANY reasons why I didn't want the geth VI (in my Renegade playthrough Legion wasn't there, I sold him to Cerberus) to upload the reaper code into the geth consensus. Several reasons are:

1) The geth are an VI gone rogue. Like the VI on Luna they need to be either fixed or shut down / exterminated.

2) The geth are already way too powerful and superior to many organics. If we allow them to use the reaper code, they'll become even stronger, more advanced, more dangerous. If they decided to go Skynet on us as they already did on the quarians, we'd be fucked.

3) The code upgrade is a REAPER code. Like you said, it screams "WRONG", even I, a literalist, thought so.

4) Not to mention that if it's Legion that's uploading the code, he's being a hypocrite. Didn't Legion cheer on Shepard for blowing up the Collector base saying "build your own future, don't use reaper tech" or something like that? Like I said, Legion in ME3 is a goddamn HYPOCRITE. I don't like hypocrites.

.....uhm..... you do know that the VI on Luna is EDI, righ? And that she does have the same reaper code that VI geth tries to upload? 

[DoomsdayDevice]

Joker's comment: 'good thing we have an unshackled AI around to tell us what reality is.' would have a double double meaning.

And what about Shepard being all suspicious about his appearance? Only yesterday people were complaining that Shepard was 'inexplicably suspicious'.

This would explain it. It mirrors the appearance of the child to manipulate Shepard.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 24 novembre 2012 - 12:51 .

[Rifneno]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

DD, with all due respect (a lot), I think your ideas about the geth right now are FRAKKING NUTS. I respect your right to an opinion, but I don't agree with you in the slightest.

It's just speculation, chill out.

Think about it, the similarities are there.

Give me good counter arguments.

I'm just thinking out loud here.

It would be amazing if it was true. It would basically mean Bioware tricked us twice with the same thing. Only the first time, they're telling us it's a virtual environment.

Give us a good argument before we give a good counter argument.  All you've got is "what if" based on... I don't even know what you're basing it on.

[badmojo88]

@BatmanTurian and yet! even though i was polite enough to not name names, you once again insult me as an opening and rebut my child remark- proving me correct

[MegumiAzusa]

BatmanTurian wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

badmojo88 wrote...

ok heres my point, all this drama about IT, now 'what if' just bare with me 'what if' they add nothing more after omega but multi-player packs? considering what happened with DA2 its not a far reach either. You must keep in mind this is a game dictated by marketing guidelines, so even IF i.t. was real it might not get put in the game by the time bioware would be forced to move on by EA, and theres the chance IT is just a prayer from disappointed players. Hell I know i was let down, but I dont attack people about it. Just by questioning IT at all ive been attack on every post. People say 'give me proof lets see bioware deny IT' then they dismiss the proof, heres the catch IT itself has no proof, no open declaration by bioware that it is so, and sadly IT people, the burden of proof is on you not the people who doubt. proclaiming something is doesnt make it so.

IT has no absolute proof but it has evidence, a whole page of it, which you apparently ignored on your way to troll this thread.

Proving something right is hard, proving something wrong only needs one example that shows the error.

Your frequent passive-agressive, pessimistic, negative act is getting old really fast. The same goes for Estebanus.

It's still the truth, no point in denying it. Something can have as much evidence pointing to it as it wants if there is just a tiny bit that shows it doesn't work.

[umadcommander]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

umadcommander wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Okay guys, so this is officially my next speculation.

What if the Geth consensus mission is a foreshadowing of the ending?

What if Legion is showing you false images of the events that caused the Geth-Quarian war?

(Just like the catalyst is showing you false images in a virtual environment)

What if he is showing you those images in hopes of influencing your decision to let them use the Reaper code?

(Just like the catalyst is trying to influence your decision)

That would explain why the decision to let Legion upload the Reaper code seems exactly like synthesis.

He sacrifices himself to achieve ascension through Reaper technology!

What if Legion was a Reaper agent from the get-go?

What if he only donned the N7 armour to manipulate you into thinking he's your fanboy?

(Just like the catalyst appears as the child to gain your trust)

What if the whole 'erasing of Reaper code' from the Geth consensus was a complete charade? As we can see, you can never really eradicate it completely. The 'roots' will remain.

Just like the whole 'destroying/controlling' the Reapers thing you do in the end is only an illusion?

Is the entire Geth consensus mission completely foreshadowing the end?

HAVE WE BEEN TRICKED TWICE IN THE SAME GAME WITH THE SAME TRICK BY BIOWARE?

Mind = blown?

i have a hard time believing that seeing as their are no negative effects of helping the geth

Just you wait until the next game.

The decision to let Legion use the code never sat well with me.

yeah but finding out legion was never really on your side would be like finding out miranda never left cerberus or mordin never really cured the genophage(lol spelling) i suppose it would be i surprising twist but it would be too jarring imo