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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#50376
CmdrShep80

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demersel wrote...

@, though it was me, who initially started the topic of not trusting the geth, and legion uploading his code essentially being synthesis, I really think that there is a possibility for it not to be a trap or double game. In fact it works even better as a forshadowing and a trick device for the ending for the whole geth thing being true, and there being no negative consequences - think about it - it is a positive example of synthesis! - so the guardian sees that in your memories and exploits it. And he also exploits your compassion for the geth as allies.

And really what makes me think that Legion really was Legion, and that he was not compromised - is the example of EDI - she also has reaper code in her, and that is what makes her truly alive. And she had a full two games of proving herself to you.

That is the positive points.

However, there are negative points as well. (or neutral, depends on your point of view)
First, think carefully, where do you actually meet Legion, and what is he doing there? (derelict reaper, interacting with the core of the derelict reaper).

Then there is the thing about the "house devided" mission. You see, in that mission, legion says that the heretics are preparing to upload a virus, that would turn all geth into heretics. That virus is of reaper origin. And then he preposes to ise that same reaper virus to turn the heretics into normal geth.


Or does he....

What's interesting is if you use what Legion proposes, I remember reading somewhere that the Geth become stronger as a result instead of weaker if you destroyed the Heretics

#50377
BleedingUranium

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Rifneno wrote...

FFS, the only thing Legion shows us that isn't directly confirmed by the quarians is that some quarians supported the geth during the initial conflict.  And that makes the quarians, not the geth, seem more sympathetic.

This is worse than the Hackett is indoctrinated crap.  And that's saying a lot.


Exactly, he's actually helping you see the Quarians as not all bad.

@DD Legion's not using the Reaper code, not like you're saying he does.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 24 novembre 2012 - 01:23 .


#50378
MegumiAzusa

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BatmanTurian wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I don't care if it's passive aggressiveness for if I'm merely stating a fact. And this time it's really just that: it doesn't matter how much "evidence" you have if there is just one tiny counter. If you define that as passive aggressive then I could define the "we have tons of evidence" slogan as just a cheap attack. It's nothing more then intimidation.

I also don't get why you always have to bring Estebanus in it too if he didn't even post since I-even-don't-know-how-long. It doesn't matter what he writes if you don't like my attitude.


Pointing out that we have a lot of evidence is, as you say, " merely stating a fact". It's not intimidation. You're over-exaggerating as usual.

It is, as it takes only little to disprove something you always pull out the "we got lots of evidence" card in the hope no one tries to call your bluff.


That's the problem, people try to focus on one thing to disprove all of IT. But IT is more than one piece of evidence. You, of all people, should know this.

And if you would have read my posts you would know I don't try to disprove all of IT.

#50379
BatmanTurian

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I don't care if it's passive aggressiveness for if I'm merely stating a fact. And this time it's really just that: it doesn't matter how much "evidence" you have if there is just one tiny counter. If you define that as passive aggressive then I could define the "we have tons of evidence" slogan as just a cheap attack. It's nothing more then intimidation.

I also don't get why you always have to bring Estebanus in it too if he didn't even post since I-even-don't-know-how-long. It doesn't matter what he writes if you don't like my attitude.


Pointing out that we have a lot of evidence is, as you say, " merely stating a fact". It's not intimidation. You're over-exaggerating as usual.

Over-exaggerating is redudant :P

So it is.

#50380
BatmanTurian

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I don't care if it's passive aggressiveness for if I'm merely stating a fact. And this time it's really just that: it doesn't matter how much "evidence" you have if there is just one tiny counter. If you define that as passive aggressive then I could define the "we have tons of evidence" slogan as just a cheap attack. It's nothing more then intimidation.

I also don't get why you always have to bring Estebanus in it too if he didn't even post since I-even-don't-know-how-long. It doesn't matter what he writes if you don't like my attitude.


Pointing out that we have a lot of evidence is, as you say, " merely stating a fact". It's not intimidation. You're over-exaggerating as usual.

It is, as it takes only little to disprove something you always pull out the "we got lots of evidence" card in the hope no one tries to call your bluff.


That's the problem, people try to focus on one thing to disprove all of IT. But IT is more than one piece of evidence. You, of all people, should know this.

And if you would have read my posts you would know I don't try to disprove all of IT.


But you imply that IT is disproved by disproving one thing.

#50381
BatmanTurian

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badmojo88 wrote...

@BatmanTurian again you open with a insult, and you have the gall to call anyone else a troll


I'm just responding to you, man. If you find it insulting that I'm turning the mirror on you, then so be it.

#50382
BleedingUranium

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@Megumi

Are you going somewhere with this "It only takes one thing to disprove IT" talk? Is there something you're thinking of? If not, I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make.

#50383
BatmanTurian

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Dwailing wrote...

Oh come ON, knock it off people. Batman and Megumi, if you're going to continue your argument from before, DO IT VIA PM. It's a negative influence on the rest of the thread. And rif, please don't join this discussion. It's not a new fight, and you joining it just encourages them.


This argument is pretty cold actually. Megumi and I are only having a minor disagreement.

#50384
DoomsdayDevice

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SwobyJ wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

I don't believe the Geth are bad, or working with the Reapers, but it was fear of dying that the Reapers used against the Geth. In all it doesn't matter. We kill Reapers, and we go home that's it. They can porimse me with stuff all they want, it's a bullet to the head for Harbiner.


I think this is more accurate, sorry DD.

It was the fear of death - not of Legion himself ("I must go to them"), but of all his kind. The want to save everyone. ...that lead to his choosing to distribute the code.

So it could be argued that the Rannoch arc, the one just before things get a lot weirder, has a mini-Shepard choosing a form of Synthesis in order to prime US to choose Synthesis.

Genophage arc warns us.
Geth/Quarian arc primes us up.
Ending arc (Thessia onward) fools us.
London takes us over.


No need to apologize, I'm just trying to provoke some thinking here and see where we get.

But fear of death is what made the Geth willingly join the Reapers.

And fear of death (of EDI & the Geth), and the want to save everyone is the exact reason why people pick control or synthesis.

Where's the difference?

Legion betrays his own ideals by accepting the Reapers' gifts.

#50385
badmojo88

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BatmanTurian wrote...

badmojo88 wrote...

@BatmanTurian again you open with a insult, and you have the gall to call anyone else a troll


I'm just responding to you, man. If you find it insulting that I'm turning the mirror on you, then so be it.

you tag everything i say and open with a uneeded insult rather then be civil, thats not 'just' anything thats harrassment, read the forum rules and violations

#50386
DoomsdayDevice

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BleedingUranium wrote...

@DD Legion's not using the Reaper code, not like you're saying he does.


Yeah, people say this a lot. Not saying it's not true, but could you explain why?

Honestly, I'm not looking for people to blindly agree with my crazy idea, I'm trying to figure it out.

#50387
BatmanTurian

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badmojo88 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

badmojo88 wrote...

@BatmanTurian again you open with a insult, and you have the gall to call anyone else a troll


I'm just responding to you, man. If you find it insulting that I'm turning the mirror on you, then so be it.

you tag everything i say and open with a uneeded insult rather then be civil, thats not 'just' anything thats harrassment, read the forum rules and violations


It's not harrassment, sorry. You must not know what that is.

#50388
MegumiAzusa

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BatmanTurian wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I don't care if it's passive aggressiveness for if I'm merely stating a fact. And this time it's really just that: it doesn't matter how much "evidence" you have if there is just one tiny counter. If you define that as passive aggressive then I could define the "we have tons of evidence" slogan as just a cheap attack. It's nothing more then intimidation.

I also don't get why you always have to bring Estebanus in it too if he didn't even post since I-even-don't-know-how-long. It doesn't matter what he writes if you don't like my attitude.


Pointing out that we have a lot of evidence is, as you say, " merely stating a fact". It's not intimidation. You're over-exaggerating as usual.

It is, as it takes only little to disprove something you always pull out the "we got lots of evidence" card in the hope no one tries to call your bluff.


That's the problem, people try to focus on one thing to disprove all of IT. But IT is more than one piece of evidence. You, of all people, should know this.

And if you would have read my posts you would know I don't try to disprove all of IT.


But you imply that IT is disproved by disproving one thing.

I imply IT in its current form is disproved. I'm not saying IT has some valid points in it.
3 points which are huge "contributions" to the validity or invalidity of the current form of IT:
The Mako in the ShepAlive clip: please outline it for once.
Shepard not able to survive on the base of the Tower: you can see in the EC it's shielded against the beam when the Crucible fires. You also see the Tower completely intact afterwards.
The new EC finale which only distinguishes between Crucible fired and not fired.

#50389
Guest_SwobyJ_*

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demersel wrote...

@, though it was me, who initially started the topic of not trusting the geth, and legion uploading his code essentially being synthesis, I really think that there is a possibility for it not to be a trap or double game. In fact it works even better as a forshadowing and a trick device for the ending for the whole geth thing being true, and there being no negative consequences - think about it - it is a positive example of synthesis! - so the guardian sees that in your memories and exploits it. And he also exploits your compassion for the geth as allies.

And really what makes me think that Legion really was Legion, and that he was not compromised - is the example of EDI - she also has reaper code in her, and that is what makes her truly alive. And she had a full two games of proving herself to you.

That is the positive points.

However, there are negative points as well. (or neutral, depends on your point of view)
First, think carefully, where do you actually meet Legion, and what is he doing there? (derelict reaper, interacting with the core of the derelict reaper).

Then there is the thing about the "house devided" mission. You see, in that mission, legion says that the heretics are preparing to upload a virus, that would turn all geth into heretics. That virus is of reaper origin. And then he preposes to ise that same reaper virus to turn the heretics into normal geth.


Honestly, all of this tells me a story of a geth with a specially growing individuality, that really really wants his kind to become better and more understanding of organics/the creators.

But he fumbles around with it.

I particularly like your idea that it's the experience with Legion (regardless of outcome) that is recreated by Catalyst/Harbinger(?) to be part of the Crucible.

Synthesis.

So DD, you may be wrong. Synthesis could be recreated from a POSITIVE experience with Legion, and used as part of the illusion.

That makes a Quarian-win scenario still kinda sucky, but also quite appropriate thematically for a Renegade, especially a Renegade Shep that 100% stands against any sort of Reaper code.

But like it was mentioned before, this was a code *repurposed* by Legion. It's not the same as what the Rannoch Reaper was spreading around. I'm very sure of that.

Like I said, the Rannoch arc is meant to prime us up for the final act of the story. It shows a Reaper dying conventionally, but also sets us up to want peace between synthetics and organics.

#50390
Dwailing

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badmojo88 wrote...

@BatmanTurian again you open with a insult, and you have the gall to call anyone else a troll


Alright, how's this?

Excuse me good sir, I do believe that when you can into this thread you were essentially calling us stupid for continuing to discuss an ending that was meant to be discussed.  Now, IMHO, that is, in fact, rather childish.  It says that you couldn't come up with any good arguments, so you resorted to insulting us in an attempt to, what? get us to stop?  Well, we're not going to do that because, despite what you may believe, people are entitled to opinions that differ from yours.  Thank you for your time.  Sincerely,

Dwailing

#50391
badmojo88

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BatmanTurian wrote...

badmojo88 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

badmojo88 wrote...

@BatmanTurian again you open with a insult, and you have the gall to call anyone else a troll


I'm just responding to you, man. If you find it insulting that I'm turning the mirror on you, then so be it.

you tag everything i say and open with a uneeded insult rather then be civil, thats not 'just' anything thats harrassment, read the forum rules and violations


It's not harrassment, sorry. You must not know what that is.

see? another insult, troll troll troll, wow do you hear yourself?

#50392
masster blaster

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Can you stop arguning with each other. "You can either fall in line, or fall by my heel, but either way your going to work together, or get out. "

Cookie for anyone that get's that reference

But for real stop arguning. We do this every time. Meg you complained that we get off topic, and look were we are. BT you always say don't chat with trolls, yet you are. Badger you always are sarcastic, and you are very rude to your friends when you get anger.

Look I am no better, but look at your post people. Meg you and Badger always get into a fight, as well as me and Estebauns. Well not latly because he hasn't been here, and I havn't pissed him off.

Further more you both need to take a chill pill and leave or regain control of yourself's.

#50393
Rifneno

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DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Hey, relax. Why do some of you need to get all hostile?


"Many humans have said that to me. I do not understand it. If I were hostile you would be bleeding." - Sten

Dwailing wrote...

Oh come ON, knock it off people. Batman and Megumi, if you're going to continue your argument from before, DO IT VIA PM. It's a negative influence on the rest of the thread. And rif, please don't join this discussion. It's not a new fight, and you joining it just encourages them.


Sorry, mom.

#50394
Gwyphon

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There's a whole bunch of anger in this thread today. CAN'T YOU SEE YOU'RE TEARING THIS FAMILY APART?!

But on a serious note, it seems as if we're going to get Omega and its trailer at the same time...

#50395
Guest_SwobyJ_*

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DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

DD, with all due respect (a lot), I think your ideas about the geth right now are FRAKKING NUTS. I respect your right to an opinion, but I don't agree with you in the slightest.


It's just speculation, chill out.

Think about it, the similarities are there.

Give me good counter arguments.

I'm just thinking out loud here.

It would be amazing if it was true. It would basically mean Bioware tricked us twice with the same thing. Only the first time, they're telling us it's a virtual environment.


Give us a good argument before we give a good counter argument.  All you've got is "what if" based on... I don't even know what you're basing it on.


I'm seeing parallels.

1. Both catalyst and Legion appear to you as something familiar. Catalyst appears as the child from Earth, Legion wears a N7 armour piece. (And Shepard is supicious of this)
2. Both are showing you images in a virtual environment. 
3. Both are feeding you information about a conflict between organics and synthetics. The catalyst is feeding you false information about a conflict between synthetics and organics, to influence your decision. The parallel makes me wonder if Legion could be doing the same.
4. Legion sacrifices himself to help the Geth ascend, through Reaper technology. That is exactly what happens in synthesis.
5. Both are making you do something futile, or so it appears. Legion lets you erase data while you can't get rid of the roots, and the catalyst shows you a pretty image of how you control/destroy/ascend while in fact god knows what else happens in reality. For all we know, Shepard could have been erasing parts of his own brain instead of Reaper code without knowing it.


But what if you've got it wrong? What if the Legion stuff is mostly GENUINE, and then Harbinger EXPLOITS that? In an illusion, you know.

But I guess you'd have to agree with my position on synthesis: that is is possible, is already happening, and is step by step goal towards a better galaxy.. but when given by the Reapers themselves, it is a false solution, and just another weapon of theirs.

Again, Legion repurposes the code. It's not the same code that the Rannoch Reaper uses.

#50396
BansheeOwnage

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badmojo88 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

badmojo88 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

badmojo88 wrote...

@BatmanTurian again you open with a insult, and you have the gall to call anyone else a troll


I'm just responding to you, man. If you find it insulting that I'm turning the mirror on you, then so be it.

you tag everything i say and open with a uneeded insult rather then be civil, thats not 'just' anything thats harrassment, read the forum rules and violations


It's not harrassment, sorry. You must not know what that is.

see? another insult, troll troll troll, wow do you hear yourself?

THIS

"It's not harrassment, sorry. You must not know what that is."

IS NOT AN INSULT. (This is Posted Image)

#50397
BatmanTurian

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

I imply IT in its current form is disproved. I'm not saying IT has some valid points in it.
3 points which are huge "contributions" to the validity or invalidity of the current form of IT:
The Mako in the ShepAlive clip: please outline it for once.
Shepard not able to survive on the base of the Tower: you can see in the EC it's shielded against the beam when the Crucible fires. You also see the Tower completely intact afterwards.
The new EC finale which only distinguishes between Crucible fired and not fired.


Very well.

1. I give you the Mako. It's a Schroedinger's Cat, if anything. The scene is still on Earth.

2. Whether the tower is shielded or not, Shepard is at ground zero inside the "shield". Even if the tower is intact (it's quantum shielded), Shepard would not be ( because he/she is not quantum shielded).

3. Irrelevant.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 24 novembre 2012 - 01:33 .


#50398
Dwailing

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BatmanTurian wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Oh come ON, knock it off people. Batman and Megumi, if you're going to continue your argument from before, DO IT VIA PM. It's a negative influence on the rest of the thread. And rif, please don't join this discussion. It's not a new fight, and you joining it just encourages them.


This argument is pretty cold actually. Megumi and I are only having a minor disagreement.


I know this isn't a bad argument (yet), but we have a guest.  We should try to maintain civility and a united front while we have guests.  We can have this discussion later, preferably when I'm gone.  It's not so much that I mind your disagreement, but that I have to see it.  I don't like seeing my friends fight.

#50399
byne

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I wish everyone would just shut the hell up with the arguing.

#50400
BatmanTurian

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badmojo88 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

badmojo88 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

badmojo88 wrote...

@BatmanTurian again you open with a insult, and you have the gall to call anyone else a troll


I'm just responding to you, man. If you find it insulting that I'm turning the mirror on you, then so be it.

you tag everything i say and open with a uneeded insult rather then be civil, thats not 'just' anything thats harrassment, read the forum rules and violations


It's not harrassment, sorry. You must not know what that is.

see? another insult, troll troll troll, wow do you hear yourself?


If you're attempting to bore me, mission accomplished.