80611 réponses à ce sujet

[MegumiAzusa]

BatmanTurian wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I imply IT in its current form is disproved. I'm not saying IT has some valid points in it.
3 points which are huge "contributions" to the validity or invalidity of the current form of IT:
The Mako in the ShepAlive clip: please outline it for once.
Shepard not able to survive on the base of the Tower: you can see in the EC it's shielded against the beam when the Crucible fires. You also see the Tower completely intact afterwards.
The new EC finale which only distinguishes between Crucible fired and not fired.

Very well.

1. I give you the Mako. It's a Schroedinger's Cat, if anything. The scene is still on Earth.

2. Whether the tower is shielded or not, Shepard is at ground zero inside the "shield". Even if the tower is intact (it's quantum shielded), Shepard would not be ( because he/she is not quantum shielded).

3. Irrelevant.

1. Ignorance.
2. You can see the beam while fireing spreading around the tower, way over Sheps head.
3. Ignorance.

[Rifneno]

SwobyJ wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I'm starting to see why we get called conspiracy nuts. There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that the quarians weren't the aggressors. MULTIPLE quarians in MULTIPLE games tell you straight up that as soon as they realized the geth were sentient they were all ordered deactivated.

Doesn't change the fact they side with the Reapers in an attempt to save their behinds.

I think Legion is truly ashamed about that.

He wants peace with the Creators, but also knows they are flawed and scarred by what the geth have done.

He wants his own kind (the geth) to be prosperous, but knows the actions they have taken to protect themselves and what negative outcomes comes out of that.

He wants his kind to move past simple self-protection, but that involves changing 'geth nature'.

He's really 'in over his head', actually.

Yeah, I got that impression too.

Shepard: How'd we get here? The geth are better than this.
Legion: (hanging his head) No. Based on empirical evidence, they are not.

[lex0r11]

[masster blaster]

Bad he didn't call you a troll in that post or the other. You should leave before I really get angry and say stuff I don't want to say.

Chris said if you don't like IT, then don't come onto the thread. Again harrasemnt is what your doing right now. Is this your thread, no, is this mine, no. It's byne, so your harrasing byne's thread, so leave.

Look I am PMing Chris in a bit about a question I would like him to answer, but if you keep acting like a troll. I am calling you a troll because reread your first post, and the rest after that. Now tell me you were not trolling at all. If you don't learn anything, I will report you like the other person that said " I am going to troll the **** out of this thread when Omega comes out." Honest he said that, and if you don't believe me go check it out. It should be in 1978, or 1980.

[BansheeOwnage]

BatmanTurian wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I imply IT in its current form is disproved. I'm not saying IT has some valid points in it.
3 points which are huge "contributions" to the validity or invalidity of the current form of IT:
The Mako in the ShepAlive clip: please outline it for once.
Shepard not able to survive on the base of the Tower: you can see in the EC it's shielded against the beam when the Crucible fires. You also see the Tower completely intact afterwards.
The new EC finale which only distinguishes between Crucible fired and not fired.

Very well.

1. I give you the Mako. It's a Schroedinger's Cat, if anything. The scene is still on Earth.

2. Whether the tower is shielded or not, Shepard is at ground zero inside the "shield". Even if the tower is intact (it's quantum shielded), Shepard would not be ( because he/she is not quantum shielded).

3. Irrelevant.

To add to point #2, if Shepard was inside the shield s/he would also suffer the ricocheting forces of the explosion due to the shield.

[BatmanTurian]

Dwailing wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Oh come ON, knock it off people. Batman and Megumi, if you're going to continue your argument from before, DO IT VIA PM. It's a negative influence on the rest of the thread. And rif, please don't join this discussion. It's not a new fight, and you joining it just encourages them.

This argument is pretty cold actually. Megumi and I are only having a minor disagreement.

I know this isn't a bad argument (yet), but we have a guest.  We should try to maintain civility and a united front while we have guests.  We can have this discussion later, preferably when I'm gone.  It's not so much that I mind your disagreement, but that I have to see it.  I don't like seeing my friends fight.

Discussing disgreements leads to new insights and refining of the theory. If Megumi is right about something, I am obligated to agree. If not, I am allowed to disagree and discuss. Otherwise, we sit here posting memes and talking about multiplayer and this thread has lost its purpose.

[DoomsdayDevice]

SwobyJ wrote...

So DD, you may be wrong. Synthesis could be recreated from a POSITIVE experience with Legion, and used as part of the illusion.

That makes a Quarian-win scenario still kinda sucky, but also quite appropriate thematically for a Renegade, especially a Renegade Shep that 100% stands against any sort of Reaper code.

But like it was mentioned before, this was a code *repurposed* by Legion. It's not the same as what the Rannoch Reaper was spreading around. I'm very sure of that.

Like I said, the Rannoch arc is meant to prime us up for the final act of the story. It shows a Reaper dying conventionally, but also sets us up to want peace between synthetics and organics.

I know I may be wrong, that's not the point. The point is to figure this out.

Yeah, peace... for now.

It could very well be that, no matter how well Legion intended, the Geth end up being controlled by the Reapers in the next game. (IF... I know)
 
Just like we don't know the exact repercussions of the endings... for now.

After all, good-natured Shepards are often the ones who dive into the synthesis beam.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 24 novembre 2012 - 01:40 .

[BatmanTurian]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I imply IT in its current form is disproved. I'm not saying IT has some valid points in it.
3 points which are huge "contributions" to the validity or invalidity of the current form of IT:
The Mako in the ShepAlive clip: please outline it for once.
Shepard not able to survive on the base of the Tower: you can see in the EC it's shielded against the beam when the Crucible fires. You also see the Tower completely intact afterwards.
The new EC finale which only distinguishes between Crucible fired and not fired.

Very well.

1. I give you the Mako. It's a Schroedinger's Cat, if anything. The scene is still on Earth.

2. Whether the tower is shielded or not, Shepard is at ground zero inside the "shield". Even if the tower is intact (it's quantum shielded), Shepard would not be ( because he/she is not quantum shielded).

3. Irrelevant.

To add to point #2, if Shepard was inside the shield s/he would also suffer the ricocheting forces of the explosion due to the shield.

I meant to imply that, but thank you for clarifying.

[MegumiAzusa]

SwobyJ wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Legion is not uploading the Reaper code into the Geth, he's uploading a code he created and wrote that was based on the Reaper code.

While under the influence of it.

...so that's why Legion helps you destroy a Reaper?

Must be the long game then.

I've heard Reapers are quite patient.

[badmojo88]

Dwailing wrote...

badmojo88 wrote...

@BatmanTurian again you open with a insult, and you have the gall to call anyone else a troll

Alright, how's this?

Excuse me good sir, I do believe that when you can into this thread you were essentially calling us stupid for continuing to discuss an ending that was meant to be discussed.  Now, IMHO, that is, in fact, rather childish.  It says that you couldn't come up with any good arguments, so you resorted to insulting us in an attempt to, what? get us to stop?  Well, we're not going to do that because, despite what you may believe, people are entitled to opinions that differ from yours.  Thank you for your time.  Sincerely,

Dwailing

 no i entered this thread at stunned disbelief that after the 2nd time IT threads were shut down another was openned, i made a jest, it seems people here like picking fights. I made no insults to anyone, i implied nothing, but i keep getting trolled for not agreeing with the herd. and being acussed of being a troll by trolls. -note- some have been civil and none harrassing and i reponded respectfully and openly.  I'm being harrassed and i reporting it accordingly

[demersel]

SwobyJ, and the best thing is that the Guardian is even exploits your uneasiness about the whole geth situation and possible distrust in the peace, can you be sure that the peace is real? Can you be sure that it will last? Can you be sure that the reaper code will not take over both the geth and the quarians, since they become symbiotic? No. And the Guardian tells you exaclty that - the whole mess is because of Organics VS Synthetics! That is what reapers are for! To make sure! Reapers are the way to be sure! You can destroy them, but the peace won't last. If not the geth - someone else will greate synthetics that will kill you all, and than you'd think, oh, boy, if only i was not so stupid and hasty to destroy the reapers. They've been around longer and they know better... But you won't be able to do anything about it, cause you'll be dead! And you damn well know that you're the only person in the galaxy (other than the reapers) that can do thing right - so you either take control of the reapers and watch over the galaxy forever, or jump into this nice beam and disperse your greatness all across galaxy into every living thing (plus free built in Wi-Fi!, Plus immortality for everyone! THe offer is only valid through this weekend so don't miss it!)

Modifié par demersel, 24 novembre 2012 - 01:47 .

[BatmanTurian]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I imply IT in its current form is disproved. I'm not saying IT has some valid points in it.
3 points which are huge "contributions" to the validity or invalidity of the current form of IT:
The Mako in the ShepAlive clip: please outline it for once.
Shepard not able to survive on the base of the Tower: you can see in the EC it's shielded against the beam when the Crucible fires. You also see the Tower completely intact afterwards.
The new EC finale which only distinguishes between Crucible fired and not fired.

Very well.

1. I give you the Mako. It's a Schroedinger's Cat, if anything. The scene is still on Earth.

2. Whether the tower is shielded or not, Shepard is at ground zero inside the "shield". Even if the tower is intact (it's quantum shielded), Shepard would not be ( because he/she is not quantum shielded).

3. Irrelevant.

1. Ignorance.
2. You can see the beam while fireing spreading around the tower, way over Sheps head.
3. Ignorance.

You're going to have to give me a bit more than ignorance if you want to have a civil discussion. I'm throwing you an olive branch here.

[CmdrShep80]

demersel wrote...

*snips to fit my section in better*

I am inclined to agree that DD's possibilities deserve exploration.  Here's why.  The three games have proven that Geth can work for the Reapers (I won't say indoctrinated yet because of below's reason after this paragraph).  Legion was aboard the Derelict Reaper for an unspecified amount of time.  Questions to ask:  How did he get aboard the derelict?  How long was he there?  Is he an avatar of the Derelict Reaper? (hence the name Legion which is an irony in itself).  The Derelict Repear was active to some extent so it's indoctrination properties could have been in effect.  We don't really understand or know how synthetics become indoctrinated by Reapers. 

If we go with the in game codex on Reaper Indoctrination:


Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds...

It only talks about indoctrination via organic minds not synthetic for the entire codex entry.

Looking at Geth construction:

Physically...Geth are primarily composed of two materials: a flexible but durable outer shell, and a kind of synthetic muscle tissue...It is actually possible for this synthetic muscle to be grafted to organic tissue (Saren Arterius has a grafted geth arm).

This could cause indoctrination if a brain was used but usually Geth are intact with no organic tissues

Looking at Geth minds:  

Effectively, they "share" their processing power....An individual geth has only a basic intelligence on par with animal instincts, but in groups they can reason, analyze situations, and make tactical decisions as well as any of the organic races. An exception would appear to be Legion, a geth specifically designed to operate as an autonomous sentient unit outside the Perseus Veil. Legion possesses over 11 times as many geth programs as a standard geth platform and can function intellectually on its own

WTF?  Legion is different? Why?

Looking at Geth Religion:

The geth formed the bulk of Saren's forces, following him because they believed he had the means to find the Conduit and bring back their "gods". In addition to providing ground troops, the geth also crewed (or tended to) Sovereign.
However, the geth did not realise Sovereign was actually insulted by their "pitiful devotions" and saw them merely as tools...It [Sovereign] found the geth...and exploited their religious beliefs.

[BleedingUranium]

[quote]MegumiAzusa wrote...

But you imply that IT is disproved by disproving one thing.[/quote]
I imply IT in its current form is disproved. I'm not saying IT has some valid points in it.
3 points which are huge "contributions" to the validity or invalidity of the current form of IT:
The Mako in the ShepAlive clip: please outline it for once.
Shepard not able to survive on the base of the Tower: you can see in the EC it's shielded against the beam when the Crucible fires. You also see the Tower completely intact afterwards.
The new EC finale which only distinguishes between Crucible fired and not fired.[/quote]

-Who cares? That was never important either way.

-Aside from my disagreement that it's shielded, that's not enough to show Shepard would've survived

-Because if it didn't change it would be waaaay to obvious. Besides, I see it as a non-canon, fourth wall breaking message to the players that there's still more Shepard to come after what you just saw. IT is all about symbolism vs things being exactly what they look like; this is no different.



[quote]DoomsdayDevice wrote...

[quote]BleedingUranium wrote...

@DD Legion's not using the Reaper code, not like you're saying he does.[/quote]

Yeah, people say this a lot. Not saying it's not true, but could you explain why?

Honestly, I'm not looking for people to blindly agree with my crazy idea, I'm trying to figure it out.
[/quote]

Let's change the example a bit: The Reapers wrote a book, but you obviously shouldn't read it because the physical part of the book is made out of Reaper tech. So instead you copy the words of the book (ctrl+c) onto a physical book you built yourself, and add and remove parts to make it work for you better.

You're using Reaper knowledge, there's nothing wrong with that. It's the same as the Protheans building their own mass relay and us building Thanix cannons.

-Are we using physical Reaper tech, as in, the stuff that indoctrinates? No.
-Are we using technology without understanding how it works, as in, advancing along the path the Reapers desire? No.

No problem then.

[ElSuperGecko]

SwobyJ wrote...
I think Legion is truly ashamed about that.

He wants peace with the Creators, but also knows they are flawed and scarred by what the geth have done.

He wants his own kind (the geth) to be prosperous, but knows the actions they have taken to protect themselves and what negative outcomes comes out of that.

He wants his kind to move past simple self-protection, but that involves changing 'geth nature'.

He's really 'in over his head', actually.

Bit of a problem with that analysis.

"Legion" is not an individual.  He is an avatar of thousands upon thousands of indiviual Geth programs.  The Geth operate by consensus.  So their decision to upload the Reaper code was by majority.  Their decision to attack Shepard was by majority.  The programs that comprise Legion may have sided with the majority, or not.  But they still accepted and endorsed the consensus.

[badmojo88]

masster blaster wrote...

Bad he didn't call you a troll in that post or the other. You should leave before I really get angry and say stuff I don't want to say.

Chris said if you don't like IT, then don't come onto the thread. Again harrasemnt is what your doing right now. Is this your thread, no, is this mine, no. It's byne, so your harrasing byne's thread, so leave.

Look I am PMing Chris in a bit about a question I would like him to answer, but if you keep acting like a troll. I am calling you a troll because reread your first post, and the rest after that. Now tell me you were not trolling at all. If you don't learn anything, I will report you like the other person that said " I am going to troll the **** out of this thread when Omega comes out." Honest he said that, and if you don't believe me go check it out. It should be in 1978, or 1980.

I am being attack here, frankly I wont be bullied away if i choose to be here, I am not trolling anyone, I am being accussed of it only. PM Chris all you like ive been sending him reports all evening. I've not been attacking anyone, cussing or trying to insult IT in general, you all are attacking me.

[CmdrShep80]

Here's something while I was looking up the explanation on the Geth that I think will come back to haunt us soon:




Citadel Reaper Code Fragments:  

An asari war stategist needs fragments of Reaper code to predict enemy movements. Find a Reaper code fragment and deliver it to her at the Citadel embassy.
Go to the Embassy Offices at the Citadel Embassies and listen to an asari's conversation. Alternatively, without overhearing her conversation, you can straightaway acquire the code fragments from the Rannoch: Geth Fighter Squadrons mission.
 Retrieve the code fragments from the Rannoch: Geth Fighter Squadrons mission. It is found near the first infected data cluster you encounter. The code can also be bought from the Spectre Requisitions terminal if you didn't get the code during the mission.
After collecting the code, go to the Asari War Strategist and give it to her. This gives you 5 Reputation, 30 experience and 1,000 credits. It also updates the Asari Second Fleet War Asset.
If you purchased the code fragment from the Spectre Requisitions terminal, you might not be able to give it to the War Strategist until you've left the Embassies level and come back.

[MegumiAzusa]

BatmanTurian wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I imply IT in its current form is disproved. I'm not saying IT has some valid points in it.
3 points which are huge "contributions" to the validity or invalidity of the current form of IT:
The Mako in the ShepAlive clip: please outline it for once.
Shepard not able to survive on the base of the Tower: you can see in the EC it's shielded against the beam when the Crucible fires. You also see the Tower completely intact afterwards.
The new EC finale which only distinguishes between Crucible fired and not fired.

Very well.

1. I give you the Mako. It's a Schroedinger's Cat, if anything. The scene is still on Earth.

2. Whether the tower is shielded or not, Shepard is at ground zero inside the "shield". Even if the tower is intact (it's quantum shielded), Shepard would not be ( because he/she is not quantum shielded).

3. Irrelevant.

1. Ignorance.
2. You can see the beam while fireing spreading around the tower, way over Sheps head.
3. Ignorance.

You're going to have to give me a bit more than ignorance if you want to have a civil discussion. I'm throwing you an olive branch here.

OK
1. You simply have no pointer to tell you if it's on the Citadel or on Earth. You simply say "[it] is still on Earth" because you want it to. This is ignorant behavior.
3. How is it irrelevant when the developers thought it is relevant enough to actually add a different one? The Opt Out choice shows you blatantly what it looks like if you choose not to use the Crucible. Shepard being indoctrinated would also result in the Crucible not being used, as no one is there to do it like when Shep decides not to, as evidenced in Opt Out.

[CmdrShep80]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...
I think Legion is truly ashamed about that.

He wants peace with the Creators, but also knows they are flawed and scarred by what the geth have done.

He wants his own kind (the geth) to be prosperous, but knows the actions they have taken to protect themselves and what negative outcomes comes out of that.

He wants his kind to move past simple self-protection, but that involves changing 'geth nature'.

He's really 'in over his head', actually.

Bit of a problem with that analysis.

"Legion" is not an individual.  He is an avatar of thousands upon thousands of indiviual Geth programs.  The Geth operate by consensus.  So their decision to upload the Reaper code was by majority.  Their decision to attack Shepard was by majority.  The programs that comprise Legion may have sided with the majority, or not.  But they still accepted and endorsed the consensus.

From my earlier post above yours:

Looking at Geth minds:

Effectively, they "share" their processing power....An individual geth has only a basic intelligence on par with animal instincts, but in groups they can reason, analyze situations, and make tactical decisions as well as any of the organic races. An exception would appear to be Legion, a geth specifically designed to operate as an autonomous sentient unit outside the Perseus Veil. Legion possesses over 11 times as many geth programs as a standard geth platform and can function intellectually on its own

This seems to say Legion is different and not like the other Geth and can operate independantly of them without loss of processing power.  I would say that chalks one for being an individual

Modifié par CmdrShep80, 24 novembre 2012 - 01:48 .