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[DoomsdayDevice]

SwobyJ wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

DD, with all due respect (a lot), I think your ideas about the geth right now are FRAKKING NUTS. I respect your right to an opinion, but I don't agree with you in the slightest.

It's just speculation, chill out.

Think about it, the similarities are there.

Give me good counter arguments.

I'm just thinking out loud here.

It would be amazing if it was true. It would basically mean Bioware tricked us twice with the same thing. Only the first time, they're telling us it's a virtual environment.

Give us a good argument before we give a good counter argument.  All you've got is "what if" based on... I don't even know what you're basing it on.

I'm seeing parallels.

1. Both catalyst and Legion appear to you as something familiar. Catalyst appears as the child from Earth, Legion wears a N7 armour piece. (And Shepard is supicious of this)
2. Both are showing you images in a virtual environment. 
3. Both are feeding you information about a conflict between organics and synthetics. The catalyst is feeding you false information about a conflict between synthetics and organics, to influence your decision. The parallel makes me wonder if Legion could be doing the same.
4. Legion sacrifices himself to help the Geth ascend, through Reaper technology. That is exactly what happens in synthesis.
5. Both are making you do something futile, or so it appears. Legion lets you erase data while you can't get rid of the roots, and the catalyst shows you a pretty image of how you control/destroy/ascend while in fact god knows what else happens in reality. For all we know, Shepard could have been erasing parts of his own brain instead of Reaper code without knowing it.

But what if you've got it wrong? What if the Legion stuff is mostly GENUINE, and then Harbinger EXPLOITS that? In an illusion, you know.

But I guess you'd have to agree with my position on synthesis: that is is possible, is already happening, and is step by step goal towards a better galaxy.. but when given by the Reapers themselves, it is a false solution, and just another weapon of theirs.

Again, Legion repurposes the code. It's not the same code that the Rannoch Reaper uses.

I'm not saying I'm right. I realize it's crazy speculation. It's just that I'm seeing parallels that make me reconsider my ideas.

Seems like a healthy attitude to me.

My point is that if it's Reaper code, it's given to us by the Reapers.

And repurposed, I don't know.

Again, I'm not looking for agreement. I'm provoking my own thoughts here, and trying to get some feedback.

In order to reject an idea, you need to first re-evaluate everything you know and question it.

That's what I'm doing.

I realize it sounds like a conspiracy theory, but all of IT does.

[Home run MF]

byne wrote...

I wish everyone would just shut the hell up with the arguing.

Indeed

[Rifneno]

I can't believe this crap is still going on.

CmdrShep80 wrote...

How did he get aboard the derelict?

Joker: There's a second ship alongside the Reaper. It's not transmitting any IFF, but the ladar paints its silhouette as geth.

(hence the name Legion which is an irony in itself)

You mean the name EDI gave him? No.

WTF? Legion is different? Why?

Because regular geth are made to operate in the networks they have set up in the Perseus Veil. Legion is the only geth that was made to leave their networks, so he had to be a network unto himself or he wouldn't be intelligent enough to be of any use.

[CmdrShep80]

Since everyone will be missing it, please read my earlier post or better yet....

[CmdrShep80]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

demersel wrote...

*snips to fit my section in better*

I am inclined to agree that DD's possibilities deserve exploration.  Here's why.  The three games have proven that Geth can work for the Reapers (I won't say indoctrinated yet because of below's reason after this paragraph).  Legion was aboard the Derelict Reaper for an unspecified amount of time.  Questions to ask:  How did he get aboard the derelict?  How long was he there?  Is he an avatar of the Derelict Reaper? (hence the name Legion which is an irony in itself).  The Derelict Repear was active to some extent so it's indoctrination properties could have been in effect.  We don't really understand or know how synthetics become indoctrinated by Reapers. 

If we go with the in game codex on Reaper Indoctrination:


Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds...

It only talks about indoctrination via organic minds not synthetic for the entire codex entry.

Looking at Geth construction:

Physically...Geth are primarily composed of two materials: a flexible but durable outer shell, and a kind of synthetic muscle tissue...It is actually possible for this synthetic muscle to be grafted to organic tissue (Saren Arterius has a grafted geth arm).

This could cause indoctrination if a brain was used but usually Geth are intact with no organic tissues

Looking at Geth minds:  

Effectively, they "share" their processing power....An individual geth has only a basic intelligence on par with animal instincts, but in groups they can reason, analyze situations, and make tactical decisions as well as any of the organic races. An exception would appear to be Legion, a geth specifically designed to operate as an autonomous sentient unit outside the Perseus Veil. Legion possesses over 11 times as many geth programs as a standard geth platform and can function intellectually on its own

WTF?  Legion is different? Why?  Legion's processing is independant with no loss in processing power.

Looking at Geth Religion:

The geth formed the bulk of Saren's forces, following him because they believed he had the means to find the Conduit and bring back their "gods". In addition to providing ground troops, the geth also crewed (or tended to) Sovereign.
However, the geth did not realise Sovereign was actually insulted by their "pitiful devotions" and saw them merely as tools...It [Sovereign] found the geth...and exploited their religious beliefs.

Cause it will get lost lol

[CmdrShep80]

Rifneno wrote...

I can't believe this crap is still going on.

CmdrShep80 wrote...

How did he get aboard the derelict?

Joker: There's a second ship alongside the Reaper. It's not transmitting any IFF, but the ladar paints its silhouette as geth.

(hence the name Legion which is an irony in itself)

You mean the name EDI gave him? No.

WTF? Legion is different? Why?

Because regular geth are made to operate in the networks they have set up in the Perseus Veil. Legion is the only geth that was made to leave their networks, so he had to be a network unto himself or he wouldn't be intelligent enough to be of any use.

Thanks!  I missed the Geth ship thing but are the Geth on that ship working for or against the Reapers?  It also still doesn't explain Legion's purpose on the Reaper

[MegumiAzusa]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...
I think Legion is truly ashamed about that.

He wants peace with the Creators, but also knows they are flawed and scarred by what the geth have done.

He wants his own kind (the geth) to be prosperous, but knows the actions they have taken to protect themselves and what negative outcomes comes out of that.

He wants his kind to move past simple self-protection, but that involves changing 'geth nature'.

He's really 'in over his head', actually.

Bit of a problem with that analysis.

"Legion" is not an individual.  He is an avatar of thousands upon thousands of indiviual Geth programs.  The Geth operate by consensus.  So their decision to upload the Reaper code was by majority.  Their decision to attack Shepard was by majority.  The programs that comprise Legion may have sided with the majority, or not.  But they still accepted and endorsed the consensus.

From my earlier post above yours:

Looking at Geth minds:

Effectively, they "share" their processing power....An individual geth has only a basic intelligence on par with animal instincts, but in groups they can reason, analyze situations, and make tactical decisions as well as any of the organic races. An exception would appear to be Legion, a geth specifically designed to operate as an autonomous sentient unit outside the Perseus Veil. Legion possesses over 11 times as many geth programs as a standard geth platform and can function intellectually on its own

This seems to say Legion is different and not like the other Geth and can operate independantly of them without loss of processing power.  I would say that chalks one for being an individual

Play his loyalty mission again.

[demersel]

@SwobyJ - I initially suggested that Legion suddenly wanting to upload reaper code into all geth does not sound like a good thing yesterday or the day before yesterday, and this idea appealed to Doomsday.
So given that initially it is my idea (at least i brought it up in here most recently) - I do thing that it has merits.

[Rifneno]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I can't believe this crap is still going on.

CmdrShep80 wrote...

How did he get aboard the derelict?

Joker: There's a second ship alongside the Reaper. It's not transmitting any IFF, but the ladar paints its silhouette as geth.

(hence the name Legion which is an irony in itself)

You mean the name EDI gave him? No.

WTF? Legion is different? Why?

Because regular geth are made to operate in the networks they have set up in the Perseus Veil. Legion is the only geth that was made to leave their networks, so he had to be a network unto himself or he wouldn't be intelligent enough to be of any use.

Thanks!  I missed the Geth ship thing but are the Geth on that ship working for or against the Reapers?  It also still doesn't explain Legion's purpose on the Reaper

He tells you flat out why he was there in 2.  He found out that Sovereign gave the heretic geth a virus that would make his geth worship the Reapers too.  He went to the derelict Reaper to get a sample of their data storage and code structure so they could combat the virus.

[Humakt83]

If you negotiate peace between Geth and Quarians, you learn afterwards from Tali that some Geth have uploaded themselves to Quarian suits....

Now, what did Javik say about machine race in their cycle?

Rifneno wrote...

I'm starting to see why we get called conspiracy nuts. There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that the quarians weren't the aggressors. MULTIPLE quarians in MULTIPLE games tell you straight up that as soon as they realized the geth were sentient they were all ordered deactivated.

Yet those multiple quarians never sided with the Reapers like some synthetic race did on multiple occassions.

I like Geth and Legion (one of the best character in the trilogy), but to trust them blindly? Hell no. Fabricatations are so easy to make, especially on a virtual reality.

Modifié par Humakt83, 24 novembre 2012 - 01:58 .

[MegumiAzusa]

demersel wrote...

@SwobyJ - I initially suggested that Legion suddenly wanting to upload reaper code into all geth does not sound like a good thing yesterday or the day before yesterday, and this idea appealed to Doomsday.
So given that initially it is my idea (at least i brought it up in here most recently) - I do thing that it has merits.

It was initially suggested in the first thread by someone else.

[BatmanTurian]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I imply IT in its current form is disproved. I'm not saying IT has some valid points in it.
3 points which are huge "contributions" to the validity or invalidity of the current form of IT:
The Mako in the ShepAlive clip: please outline it for once.
Shepard not able to survive on the base of the Tower: you can see in the EC it's shielded against the beam when the Crucible fires. You also see the Tower completely intact afterwards.
The new EC finale which only distinguishes between Crucible fired and not fired.

Very well.

1. I give you the Mako. It's a Schroedinger's Cat, if anything. The scene is still on Earth.

2. Whether the tower is shielded or not, Shepard is at ground zero inside the "shield". Even if the tower is intact (it's quantum shielded), Shepard would not be ( because he/she is not quantum shielded).

3. Irrelevant.

1. Ignorance.
2. You can see the beam while fireing spreading around the tower, way over Sheps head.
3. Ignorance.

You're going to have to give me a bit more than ignorance if you want to have a civil discussion. I'm throwing you an olive branch here.

OK
1. You simply have no pointer to tell you if it's on the Citadel or on Earth. You simply say "[it] is still on Earth" because you want it to. This is ignorant behavior.
3. How is it irrelevant when the developers thought it is relevant enough to actually add a different one? The Opt Out choice shows you blatantly what it looks like if you choose not to use the Crucible. Shepard being indoctrinated would also result in the Crucible not being used, as no one is there to do it like when Shep decides not to, as evidenced in Opt Out.

1. The concrete and rebar would not be used on a space station,  Shepard should also be dead because the explosion is megatons in power, not a sparkler on a shield. Like, disintegrated Terminator 2 Sarah Connor dream style. Or you could look at images from the after effects of Hiroshima. Shepard would be worse off than those poor souls, however.

3. The opt out choice shows the child for what he is, a Reaper intelligence. It can't be trusted. Also, yeah, the crucible is never used. Everything after every choice is just the dream sequence. It doesn't matter.

[Rifneno]

Humakt83 wrote...

If you negotiate peace between Geth and Quarians, you learn afterwards from Tali that some Geth have uploaded themselves to Quarian suits....

Now, what did Javik say about machine race in their cycle?

Rifneno wrote...

I'm starting to see why we get called conspiracy nuts. There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that the quarians weren't the aggressors. MULTIPLE quarians in MULTIPLE games tell you straight up that as soon as they realized the geth were sentient they were all ordered deactivated.

Yet those multiple quarians never sided with the Reapers like some synthetic race did on multiple occassions.

I like Geth and Legion (one of the best character in the trilogy), but to trust them blindly? Hell no. Fabricated material is so easy to make, especially on a virtual reality.

Yeah, it's not like the quarians set out to get their own Reaper after they saw what Sovereign did to the Citadel.

Oh no wait, yes they did.

[MegumiAzusa]

SwobyJ wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I'm starting to see why we get called conspiracy nuts. There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that the quarians weren't the aggressors. MULTIPLE quarians in MULTIPLE games tell you straight up that as soon as they realized the geth were sentient they were all ordered deactivated.

Doesn't change the fact they side with the Reapers in an attempt to save their behinds.

I think Legion is truly ashamed about that.

He wants peace with the Creators, but also knows they are flawed and scarred by what the geth have done.

He wants his own kind (the geth) to be prosperous, but knows the actions they have taken to protect themselves and what negative outcomes comes out of that.

He wants his kind to move past simple self-protection, but that involves changing 'geth nature'.

He's really 'in over his head', actually.

Yeah, I got that impression too.

Shepard: How'd we get here? The geth are better than this.
Legion: (hanging his head) No. Based on empirical evidence, they are not.

It's really quite sad, to those who pay attention to Legion's lines.

He's really just the more enlightened geth going "My people can be good! I know they can! We can have peace! Please!"... I mean, if he was an organic there, lol.

But since he is synthetic, he'll admit the truth - "My people are screwed up. Over and over."

"Everything I've done was to protect humanity."

[demersel]

Rifneno wrote...

He tells you flat out why he was there in 2.  He found out that Sovereign gave the heretic geth a virus that would make his geth worship the Reapers too.  He went to the derelict Reaper to get a sample of their data storage and code structure so they could combat the virus.

Sooo...Basicly he was there to get himself some reaper code? 

I think that the code he got in ME3 - he was kind of searching for it from the very beginning (or something like it - if anything it was his primary function)  

[BleedingUranium]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

OK
1. You simply have no pointer to tell you if it's on the Citadel or on Earth. You simply say "[it] is still on Earth" because you want it to. This is ignorant behavior.
3. How is it irrelevant when the developers thought it is relevant enough to actually add a different one? The Opt Out choice shows you blatantly what it looks like if you choose not to use the Crucible. Shepard being indoctrinated would also result in the Crucible not being used, as no one is there to do it like when Shep decides not to, as evidenced in Opt Out.

1- What??? We never needed the so-called Mako to know it was Earth.

3-This is no different than saying that Synthesis is possible because I saw it happen. According to IT it didn't happen, that's the whole point! Also, symbolic fourth-wall breaking scene.

[Arashi08]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I can't believe this crap is still going on.

CmdrShep80 wrote...

How did he get aboard the derelict?

Joker: There's a second ship alongside the Reaper. It's not transmitting any IFF, but the ladar paints its silhouette as geth.

(hence the name Legion which is an irony in itself)

You mean the name EDI gave him? No.

WTF? Legion is different? Why?

Because regular geth are made to operate in the networks they have set up in the Perseus Veil. Legion is the only geth that was made to leave their networks, so he had to be a network unto himself or he wouldn't be intelligent enough to be of any use.

Thanks!  I missed the Geth ship thing but are the Geth on that ship working for or against the Reapers?  It also still doesn't explain Legion's purpose on the Reaper

Legion was on the Reaper to analyze data from it to deal with that virus that was going to rewrite all geth (can't quite remember the specifics).  Legion does mention this in dialogue before its loyalty mission.
 

Modifié par Arashi08, 24 novembre 2012 - 01:59 .

[demersel]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

@SwobyJ - I initially suggested that Legion suddenly wanting to upload reaper code into all geth does not sound like a good thing yesterday or the day before yesterday, and this idea appealed to Doomsday.
So given that initially it is my idea (at least i brought it up in here most recently) - I do thing that it has merits.

It was initially suggested in the first thread by someone else.

Link please. ))
(did you see " the most recently" part?)

Modifié par demersel, 24 novembre 2012 - 01:59 .

[Rifneno]

demersel wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

He tells you flat out why he was there in 2.  He found out that Sovereign gave the heretic geth a virus that would make his geth worship the Reapers too.  He went to the derelict Reaper to get a sample of their data storage and code structure so they could combat the virus.

Sooo...Basicly he was there to get himself some reaper code? 

I think that the code he got in ME3 - he was kind of searching for it from the very beginning (or something like it - if anything it was his primary function)  

JFC.  I'm gonna go play some Skyrim or something.  You people are giving me a headache with this stupidity.

[masster blaster]

1. I am not bulling you Bad.
2. Your point is what? What is it that you want? You haven't asked us anything that was what you wanted to here. We gave you answers, but your attitude sucks. It was your first enterence that made you labeld as a troll. You actions.
3. I didn't even pm chris about you. I asked him a question that's it.
4. No offence you sound like that Salarian Dalitrass about the bullying thing. Did Shepard bully her, no just getting a point across from her stupid own logic. I am not saying your stupid, but more or less you don't understand IT at all.

[Arashi08]

Rifneno wrote...

demersel wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

He tells you flat out why he was there in 2.  He found out that Sovereign gave the heretic geth a virus that would make his geth worship the Reapers too.  He went to the derelict Reaper to get a sample of their data storage and code structure so they could combat the virus.

Sooo...Basicly he was there to get himself some reaper code? 

I think that the code he got in ME3 - he was kind of searching for it from the very beginning (or something like it - if anything it was his primary function)  

JFC.  I'm gonna go play some Skyrim or something.  You people are giving me a headache with this stupidity.

Glad I'm not the only one who's brain is feeling numb since the last 20 or so pages...