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Omega drops in 4 days!
....
If Omega drops major clues and people can't or won't connect the dots, I will be disappointed.
Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!
Débuté par
byne
, juil. 30 2012 07:09
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#50477
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:20
BatmanTurian
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IronSabbath88 wrote...
This constant bickering is what drove me away in the first place. I came back because it looked like things had calmed down quite a bit, now it's back to needless bickering.
Come on.
I'm discussing at the moment.
#50478
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:20
BleedingUranium
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MegumiAzusa wrote...
Read Retribution. It can be both.
Well, there are two different kinds of Reaper influence that have the same name. The kind I was talking about, and the kind we talk about here, is the influence kind.
The other is the control kind, like husks, but really that's more like Entrallment 2.0.
The Heretics were indoctrinated.
Modifié par BleedingUranium, 24 novembre 2012 - 02:21 .
#50479
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:21
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agreed401 Kill wrote...
Omega drops in 4 days!
....
If Omega drops major clues and people can't or won't connect the dots, I will be disappointed.
#50480
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:21
DoomsdayDevice
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BleedingUranium wrote...
byne wrote...
DoomsdayDevice wrote...
BleedingUranium wrote...
Let's change the example a bit: The Reapers wrote a book, but you obviously shouldn't read it because the physical part of the book is made out of Reaper tech. So instead you copy the words of the book (ctrl+c) onto a physical book you built yourself, and add and remove parts to make it work for you better.
You're using Reaper knowledge, there's nothing wrong with that. It's the same as the Protheans building their own mass relay and us building Thanix cannons.
-Are we using physical Reaper tech, as in, the stuff that indoctrinates? No.
-Are we using technology without understanding how it works, as in, advancing along the path the Reapers desire? No.
No problem then.
Yes, I understand that. But what if Reaper code is the synthetic form of indoctrination? An incredibly advanced and complex code with hidden subroutines?
I realize that's not really a question that can be answered. Let me phrase it like this:
How do the Reapers control synthetics?
Through code? Nanites that influence their processors? Both?
Do we even have an idea?
Legion says they dont really control the geth, they just changed the way they thought a bit. The heretics were technically following the Reapers of their own free will, and not being controlled at all.
Right, which is exactly what indoctrination is: No control, just influence. If you choose to agree with the Reapers' ideology or methods, you're indoctrinated. Period.
Yes, real life indoctrination is just influence.
"But we already controlled him."
Where does influence end, and true control begin?
We know that Reaper indoctrination rewrites neural pathways, that's physically changing how someone thinks. Sure, it's influence, but it's more than just influence, it's messing with free will.
Which raises the question: how do they mess with the will of the synthetics? Or are you saying synthetics still have complete free will, if they join the Reapers? There has to be some kind of manipulation going on, other than just convincing arguments.
Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 24 novembre 2012 - 02:22 .
#50481
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:21
MegumiAzusa
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I am insisting on treating the things that are the same equally. As evidenced in Low EMS where Shep dies and after that the scene is playing it shows it is literal. If not there wouldn't even be any need for the scene to be different in Opt Out, which plays always exactly the same regardless of EMS. It just makes the connection of Shepards death, the Harvest of the current Cycle, and the use of the Crucible obvious.BleedingUranium wrote...
MegumiAzusa wrote...
1. No, you did not know. You just assumed and spouted it out as the truth.BleedingUranium wrote...
MegumiAzusa wrote...
OK
1. You simply have no pointer to tell you if it's on the Citadel or on Earth. You simply say "[it] is still on Earth" because you want it to. This is ignorant behavior.
3. How is it irrelevant when the developers thought it is relevant enough to actually add a different one? The Opt Out choice shows you blatantly what it looks like if you choose not to use the Crucible. Shepard being indoctrinated would also result in the Crucible not being used, as no one is there to do it like when Shep decides not to, as evidenced in Opt Out.
1- What??? We never needed the so-called Mako to know it was Earth.
3-This is no different than saying that Synthesis is possible because I saw it happen. According to IT it didn't happen, that's the whole point! Also, symbolic fourth-wall breaking scene.
3. Again, you assume and declare it truth.
1- I never spout out anything as truth here, but since this is the IT thread, we don't need to make that point clear.
3- See above.
IT is about things not being taken literally, and you're insisting on taking things literally.
#50482
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:22
badmojo88
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BatmanTurian wrote...
badmojo88 wrote...
hmm not presumptuous really ive worked reallife construction before, you'd be surprised what things people wouldnt think are made from those are, more over the citidels innereds were "rebuilt" by the other races, perhaps they did use those for the inner stuctures, some of the me3 citidel fights imply they did.BatmanTurian wrote...
badmojo88 wrote...
for the #1- you'd be surprised, bare in mind not the framework
, but the structures within? sure they would.
#2 may shock you but im right with you there believe it or not
#3 the Entire 'choice' bit is an open and closed farse, as in babylon 5 the shadows and volrons wanted the young races to pick a side, one or the other, but the correct choice was to not choose at all. Same with the starchild, but then again its a question of is it really good story telling (IT real) or lazy and fail story telling (IT a lie)
1. I think that's presumptuous. London is more likely to have broken concrete and rebar than the citadel, which is more likely to be made of more resiliant materials and alloys. Concrete breaks down and cracks over time from stress and moisture. It is unlikely it would be used on a space station.
2. Kay
3. I can't really argue with opinion and head canon so believe what you like. I can tell you, however, that bioware has more of a history of great storytelling, mindscrews, and twists than bad storytelling.
#2 well to be fair it could have been a sperate light source, kinda unknown
as for 3#...Anders
1. Occam's Razor says Jolly Ol' England is more likely to have concrete.
2. I don't think it's a separate light source.
3. Different team.
@1. true but possible
@2. maybe, maybe not
@3. fair enough, still BW isnt stainless in storytelling.
#50483
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:22
masster blaster
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BT it's going to happen. People fail to realise what Leviathan was really about, and they will do it again in Omega. Yet we will already know what to look for, and speculate what's in Omega.
#50484
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:24
BatmanTurian
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[quote]badmojo88 wrote...
1. Occam's Razor says Jolly Ol' England is more likely to have concrete.
2. I don't think it's a separate light source.
3. Different team.
[/quote]
@1. true but possible
@2. maybe, maybe not
@3. fair enough, still BW isnt stainless in storytelling.
[/quote]
Nice to see we can get along and still disagree.
1. Occam's Razor says Jolly Ol' England is more likely to have concrete.
2. I don't think it's a separate light source.
3. Different team.
[/quote]
@1. true but possible
@2. maybe, maybe not
@3. fair enough, still BW isnt stainless in storytelling.
[/quote]
Nice to see we can get along and still disagree.
#50485
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:26
BatmanTurian
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masster blaster wrote...
BT it's going to happen. People fail to realise what Leviathan was really about, and they will do it again in Omega. Yet we will already know what to look for, and speculate what's in Omega.
We don't know what Omega has in store. For all we know, it's cut-and-dry saving Aria's empire. I doubt it, but the possibility exists.
#50486
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:28
Home run MF
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byne wrote...
BansheeOwnage wrote...
Home Run!That's the exact thing I thought of when reading that, and Dwailing's post. Didn't know you watched Red vs. Blue!
I didnt know Home Run watched RvB either! Or maybe I did and forgot.
I do, still at season two but catching up.
#50487
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:28
MegumiAzusa
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1. Sure there could, it could also be on the Citadel, you cannot know. You also nicely evaded the 'concrete', strange coincidence having that as texture in that level, isn't it? Shepard should be vaporized... if there were no shields and no possibility to get at least some distance to it yes.BatmanTurian wrote...
MegumiAzusa wrote...
1. There is still no rebar but cables, I don't know where you have that rebar idea coming from other then "it has to be in London, hey in London is rebar which looks basically the same, different but hey who cares right?". You also still ignore the shielded part and the option of moveable objects and the fact that the same "concrete" texture is indeed used for the Citadel. There is just nothing there that suggests Shepard is not on the Citadel.
3. Low EMS causes Shepard to die while the door of the Normandy opens, which is before that scene...
1. Okay, seriously, you're going to go back to the Reaper cable argument? To which I would reply that the conduit is made out of reaper technology, so there could be reaper cables nearby. I'll tell you why Shepard isn't on the citadel. Shepard should be vaporized. Secondly, which place is more likely for concrete, London or the Citadel? Occam's Razor says London. If you think Shepard is on the Citadel, you have failed Physics 101.
3. People see a light before they die and other delusions.
3. 'before' is the keyword here. We're talking about after.
#50488
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:29
401 Kill
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Well, if it annoys you so much, you could just ignore it.BatmanTurian wrote...
IronSabbath88 wrote...
This constant bickering is what drove me away in the first place. I came back because it looked like things had calmed down quite a bit, now it's back to needless bickering.
Come on.
I'm discussing at the moment.
For example, I haven't read any of Heritic Hanar's posts since before I started posting here, and it works great!
#50489
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:30
BansheeOwnage
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You know, usually it's okay.IronSabbath88 wrote...
This constant bickering is what drove me away in the first place. I came back because it looked like things had calmed down quite a bit, now it's back to needless bickering.
Come on.
#50490
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:31
IronSabbath88
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Of course it's usually okay, and I also usually ignore it too, but when it takes up about 4 or 5 pages, it's kind of hard to ignore.
#50491
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:32
BatmanTurian
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MegumiAzusa wrote...
1. Sure there could, it could also be on the Citadel, you cannot know. You also nicely evaded the 'concrete', strange coincidence having that as texture in that level, isn't it? Shepard should be vaporized... if there were no shields and no possibility to get at least some distance to it yes.BatmanTurian wrote...
MegumiAzusa wrote...
1. There is still no rebar but cables, I don't know where you have that rebar idea coming from other then "it has to be in London, hey in London is rebar which looks basically the same, different but hey who cares right?". You also still ignore the shielded part and the option of moveable objects and the fact that the same "concrete" texture is indeed used for the Citadel. There is just nothing there that suggests Shepard is not on the Citadel.
3. Low EMS causes Shepard to die while the door of the Normandy opens, which is before that scene...
1. Okay, seriously, you're going to go back to the Reaper cable argument? To which I would reply that the conduit is made out of reaper technology, so there could be reaper cables nearby. I'll tell you why Shepard isn't on the citadel. Shepard should be vaporized. Secondly, which place is more likely for concrete, London or the Citadel? Occam's Razor says London. If you think Shepard is on the Citadel, you have failed Physics 101.
3. People see a light before they die and other delusions.
3. 'before' is the keyword here. We're talking about after.
I concede the ambiguity. Kind of what Bioware was going for anyway.
#50492
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:32
BleedingUranium
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IronSabbath88 wrote...
Of course it's usually okay, and I also usually ignore it too, but when it takes up about 4 or 5 pages, it's kind of hard to ignore.
Today's been weird like that.
#50493
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:33
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
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CmdrShep80 wrote...
CmdrShep80 wrote...
demersel wrote...
*snips to fit my section in better*
I am inclined to agree that DD's possibilities deserve exploration. Here's why. The three games have proven that Geth can work for the Reapers (I won't say indoctrinated yet because of below's reason after this paragraph). Legion was aboard the Derelict Reaper for an unspecified amount of time. Questions to ask: How did he get aboard the derelict? How long was he there? Is he an avatar of the Derelict Reaper? (hence the name Legion which is an irony in itself). The Derelict Repear was active to some extent so it's indoctrination properties could have been in effect. We don't really understand or know how synthetics become indoctrinated by Reapers.
If we go with the in game codex on Reaper Indoctrination:
Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds...
It only talks about indoctrination via organic minds not synthetic for the entire codex entry.
Looking at Geth construction:
Physically...Geth are primarily composed of two materials: a flexible but durable outer shell, and a kind of synthetic muscle tissue...It is actually possible for this synthetic muscle to be grafted to organic tissue (Saren Arterius has a grafted geth arm).
This could cause indoctrination if a brain was used but usually Geth are intact with no organic tissues
Looking at Geth minds:
Effectively, they "share" their processing power....An individual geth has only a basic intelligence on par with animal instincts, but in groups they can reason, analyze situations, and make tactical decisions as well as any of the organic races. An exception would appear to be Legion, a geth specifically designed to operate as an autonomous sentient unit outside the Perseus Veil. Legion possesses over 11 times as many geth programs as a standard geth platform and can function intellectually on its own
WTF? Legion is different? Why? Legion's processing is independant with no loss in processing power.
Looking at Geth Religion:
The geth formed the bulk of Saren's forces, following him because they believed he had the means to find the Conduit and bring back their "gods". In addition to providing ground troops, the geth also crewed (or tended to) Sovereign.
However, the geth did not realise Sovereign was actually insulted by their "pitiful devotions" and saw them merely as tools...It [Sovereign] found the geth...and exploited their religious beliefs.
Cause it will get lost lol
In the end, how does any of it matter? Not meaning to be sarcastic, but whether or not legion is a heretic or that all geth are essentially heretics doesn't matter other than if you ally with them, they don't really help in the war for your side. But given how it ended, it didn't matter. We didn't have geth involved at any point on that beam run, which was the most important part aside from whether legion was the sole reason you would not choose destroy.
I've always maintained that legion serves as a manipulation - a plot device to keep you from choosing destroy so edi and the geth live. So while it is worthy of consideration as to whether legion manipulated shepard (or many players), does it really matter in the end? Only if you didn't choose destroy because of the geth. It certainly is an interesting thing to consider, that legion was lying. But there are many things that would have to fall in place perfectly for legion's lies to help the reapers. The main one would be the assumption that reapers can also see the future events and timeline changes due to decisions made... that the catalyst would be made, that they would make it to london, that shepard would survive the reaper attacks (and they appeared to be quite bent on killing shepard and crew until the beam scene), and that shepard would make it to the beam into the citadel (still not certain as to whether this is where the indoctrination attempt begins or not), and then shepard would be presented with the choices. Can the reapers see the future? Did they plan all of that perfectly? If so, then it does matter within the context of the game.
The only way it matters is if legion manipulated shepard and then shepard chose something other than destroy solely because of the geth. Otherwise, it's worthy of speculation, but one of those things that may serve no purpose in the end and be impossible to answer. Even in future games, if they don't import (which I am sure they will not given the choices and having to write something that suits all choices unless we get that magical final boss battle where all players are forced to see that destroy is the only option) - in which case, the geth are dead if the brat wasnt' lying about that.
I'm not against the possibility that legion manipulated shepard. I'm just asking what is gained beyond more speculation and questions that will never and probably can never be answered?
Modifié par starlitegirlx, 24 novembre 2012 - 02:38 .
#50494
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:33
BansheeOwnage
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It only gets better! Until season 6 (because it's my favourite). Seasons 7-10 are great though.Home run MF wrote...
byne wrote...
BansheeOwnage wrote...
Home Run!
I didnt know Home Run watched RvB either! Or maybe I did and forgot.
I do, still at season two but catching up.
#50495
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:35
AresKeith
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Banshee I like the picture of your Shepard
#50496
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:35
MegumiAzusa
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As Legion says they change basic subroutines.DoomsdayDevice wrote...
BleedingUranium wrote...
byne wrote...
DoomsdayDevice wrote...
BleedingUranium wrote...
Let's change the example a bit: The Reapers wrote a book, but you obviously shouldn't read it because the physical part of the book is made out of Reaper tech. So instead you copy the words of the book (ctrl+c) onto a physical book you built yourself, and add and remove parts to make it work for you better.
You're using Reaper knowledge, there's nothing wrong with that. It's the same as the Protheans building their own mass relay and us building Thanix cannons.
-Are we using physical Reaper tech, as in, the stuff that indoctrinates? No.
-Are we using technology without understanding how it works, as in, advancing along the path the Reapers desire? No.
No problem then.
Yes, I understand that. But what if Reaper code is the synthetic form of indoctrination? An incredibly advanced and complex code with hidden subroutines?
I realize that's not really a question that can be answered. Let me phrase it like this:
How do the Reapers control synthetics?
Through code? Nanites that influence their processors? Both?
Do we even have an idea?
Legion says they dont really control the geth, they just changed the way they thought a bit. The heretics were technically following the Reapers of their own free will, and not being controlled at all.
Right, which is exactly what indoctrination is: No control, just influence. If you choose to agree with the Reapers' ideology or methods, you're indoctrinated. Period.
Yes, real life indoctrination is just influence.
"But we already controlled him."
Where does influence end, and true control begin?
We know that Reaper indoctrination rewrites neural pathways, that's physically changing how someone thinks. Sure, it's influence, but it's more than just influence, it's messing with free will.
Which raises the question: how do they mess with the will of the synthetics? Or are you saying synthetics still have complete free will, if they join the Reapers? There has to be some kind of manipulation going on, other than just convincing arguments.
#50497
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:37
DoomsdayDevice
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BleedingUranium wrote...
MegumiAzusa wrote...
Read Retribution. It can be both.
Well, there are two different kinds of Reaper influence that have the same name. The kind I was talking about, and the kind we talk about here, is the influence kind.
The other is the control kind, like husks, but really that's more like Entrallment 2.0.
The Heretics were indoctrinated.
As in, just convinced by good arguments?
Didn't Byne say they slightly changed the way they think?
Isn't that messing with free will, as in, the control kind?
Yet at the same time, people are saying, no they were not being controlled, they were just influenced. I mean is influence still only influence if it isn't just something you perceive, but something that changes the way you think?
It's really confusing.
Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 24 novembre 2012 - 02:38 .
#50498
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:38
BansheeOwnage
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Don't wanna he a downer, but... prepare to be disappointed.BatmanTurian wrote...
agreed401 Kill wrote...
Omega drops in 4 days!
....
If Omega drops major clues and people can't or won't connect the dots, I will be disappointed.
#50499
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:38
badmojo88
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hmm ok ill bite, one thing that always made me wonder with IT (putting aside my skepticism a moment) and no i am not trolling. Keeper 20? i know it seems strange but it was often put in the center of things on the SB ship, and the keepers are an unknown for the most part, vague blurbs about them here and there but not much. They had a bigger roll in ME1 with openning the citidel to dark space...well the citidel is the cru isnt it? would they not also have a function for that as well? maybe also a driving force behind indoc? and why is number 20 singled out?
#50500
Posté 24 novembre 2012 - 02:39
masster blaster
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Meg I had a crazy theory. What if Legion is a geth Heritc, and the Geth we Destroy, or over write are the non Indoctrinated Geth. That would be a messed up twist, but what if, and that could go along just very well with DD's theory, but I doubt any of this is true, but speculation.
