80611 réponses à ce sujet

[RavenEyry]

Bill Casey wrote...

He also failed to wipe out the Leviathan...
And then there's Javik...

Lord knows what else the Reapers failed to eradicate...
What is biding their time in the dark corners of the galaxy...

Egads, the Inhibitors are coming!

(Reference cookies available)

[masster blaster]

Okay um I read a post on a thread, and somebody said " The Catalyst could save us all." Um I think people are actually likeing the Catalyst, although it is a Synthesis supporter that said this.

[RavenEyry]

They're in a minority. They're fun to ridicule though, like fundamentalists.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

masster blaster wrote...

David, actually it makes sense if the Reapers are toying with us. They didn't take the Citadel like last time. Yes the I can see there is no point, but there is. Remember the Mass relay systems are inside the Citadel in other words they should have gone to the Citadel, and shut down the mass relays, which would lead the galaxy divided., yet they don't, and what's also funny it that they now have the Citadel, and all they have to do is shut down the relay, and the crucible can never get to Earth% the fleets. Sure FTL, but that's going to be a long time.

So I do believe the Reapers are toying with us I mean look at Earth gone within the first day. While the other races are putting up a fight. But then you see the Reapers are pushing them back slowly, but they are.

Oh and I just had an idea, what if we uses the citadel to summan all the Reapers into the sol system. And when they are all in we blow up the mass relay with the crucible. We sacrfice Earth to save the galaxy, now that would be epic. I mean sure we get everyone away from the sol system, but I can just see it.

Regarding the Citadel i always imagined the Reapers didnt take it because they couldnt. No I dont mean the Citadel defense, i refer to its ability to close.

Even Sovereign alone needed Saren aboard the Citadel to prevent it from closing before he reached it. If the Reapers attacked the Citadel in force they could probably close it in time and the Reapers would hammer away at the hull uselessly.

They needed sufficient Indoctrinated manpower onboard first before they could take it.

Blowing up earth with the Reapers is something I always thought would be potential outcome after Arrival. Though instead of making it a standard relay, make it the Citadel. The Crucible trap or not generates a huge amount of energy, perhaps it can overload the Citadel relay?

[Davik Kang]

spotlessvoid wrote...
Or even better, an ME3 expansion would be the awesomerest thing ever. The question though, is if the crucible is a trap in the sense that DD suggested, then what are the ending choices about? What's the point if it only does what the Reapers want? Shepard was already going to fire it. What's the whole charade for? 

If DD's right then the ending choices are just indoctrination dreams like you guys have suggested all along.  Shepard never wakes up after Harby blast, so whatever the choices are, they're a product of Shepard's mind and not related to the Crucible.

masster blaster wrote...

David, actually it makes sense if the Reapers are toying with us. They didn't take the Citadel like last time. Yes the I can see there is no point, but there is. Remember the Mass relay systems are inside the Citadel in other words they should have gone to the Citadel, and shut down the mass relays, which would lead the galaxy divided., yet they don't, and what's also funny it that they now have the Citadel, and all they have to do is shut down the relay, and the crucible can never get to Earth% the fleets. Sure FTL, but that's going to be a long time.

So I do believe the Reapers are toying with us I mean look at Earth gone within the first day. While the other races are putting up a fight. But then you see the Reapers are pushing them back slowly, but they are.

Ok but that means that unless DD is right, the end is certain victory for the Reapers.  Which is possible but a bit of a downer - it would make the end a purely personal victory which has little impact on the inevitable Reaper victory.  Maybe that is what they intended.   Who knows.  Maybe the writers themselves differ as to the true interpretation, 2001 style .

Modifié par Davik Kang, 24 novembre 2012 - 08:17 .

[spotlessvoid]

To me, the only way the crucible as a trap makes sense of what happens to Shepard during the ending is if it involves needing a willingly realigned Shepard. Maybe it at happens when Shepard steps in the beam and it's him being tested to see where he is at mentally. I guess high ems destroy would be overloading or getting ejected from the beam, hence the breath scene.

Or maybe synthesis is walking into the beam, and the whole hallucination is trying to get Shepard realigned and submissive before he's beamed up, maybe to be uploaded as the newly built Reaper avatar,or for some other purpose altogether.

To me any option that involves Shepard just being steered into firing the crucible option the Reapers want doesn't make sense of the Reapers lackadaisical attitude towards the crucible the entire game. Where the control and/or synthesis options so potentially awesome to the Reapers/AI that they were willing to face annihilation on the hope that Shepard makes the right choice? That just seems very silly. One, what a massively stupid risk. Two, exactly why couldn't the Reapers build their own crucible? Am I really supposed to believe Shepard was needed?

[spotlessvoid]

So is DD saying even the breath scene is a hallucination?

Refuse having such terrible consequences despite Shepard making that glorious speech kind of seems to suggest that the post choice hallucinations are at least partially influenced by Reapers/starchild.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

spotlessvoid wrote...

To me, the only way the crucible as a trap makes sense of what happens to Shepard during the ending is if it involves needing a willingly realigned Shepard. Maybe it at happens when Shepard steps in the beam and it's him being tested to see where he is at mentally. I guess high ems destroy would be overloading or getting ejected from the beam, hence the breath scene.

Or maybe synthesis is walking into the beam, and the whole hallucination is trying to get Shepard realigned and submissive before he's beamed up, maybe to be uploaded as the newly built Reaper avatar,or for some other purpose altogether.

To me any option that involves Shepard just being steered into firing the crucible option the Reapers want doesn't make sense of the Reapers lackadaisical attitude towards the crucible the entire game. Where the control and/or synthesis options so potentially awesome to the Reapers/AI that they were willing to face annihilation on the hope that Shepard makes the right choice? That just seems very silly. One, what a massively stupid risk. Two, exactly why couldn't the Reapers build their own crucible? Am I really supposed to believe Shepard was needed?

My interpretation of the Crucible as trap is that it is a object which to Reapers measure the cycles ability to fight back. If the cycle can throw enough ressources at the project to complete it (wasting those resources) then they are a prettty large threat and the Reapers mobilize and "leak" the location of the catalyst. In short they lead the entire cycle force into an all out frontal assualt.

The cycle force thinks the Crucible can grant them victory, but in reality it does nothing and the Reapers can wipe out all major resistance in one blow. The Crucible might then still be used for some purpose by the Reapers, ideas include beeing a battery for activating new Reapers, an energy source for the vast amounts of energy needed to send the Reaper fleet back to dark space or similar.

In short the Crucible beeing a trap is in the form that it wastes time, ressources and ultimately brings all resistance to the Reapers doorstep.

Thats at least my idea.

[BleedingUranium]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Adding ME3 MP to it isn't a good way to argue. It's tailored for MP, each Collector unit has a timer after which they turn into possessed units. Also the fact that the Collector ship is flying to Earth which should be under siege by Reapers anyway doesn't make much sense in the first place.

I'm expecting that shot of the Black Ark, along with its in game model, to show up in future content, no way they'd go to all that effort just for the trailer.

[Davik Kang]

masster blaster wrote...
Okay um I read a post on a thread, and somebody said " The Catalyst could save us all." Um I think people are actually likeing the Catalyst, although it is a Synthesis supporter that said this.

RavenEyry wrote...
They're in a minority. They're fun to ridicule though, like fundamentalists.

It's unfortunate to say, but Synthesis is a lot like a realisation of a final destination of life/existence as imagined by many religions (in ME and real life).  A kind of final Utopia where conflict and strife are no longer necessary.  Hope I don't offend people too much when I suggest that Shepard jumping into that beam is as egotistical as declaring oneself the new Messiah and bringing all life into the new age, the day of reckoning, etc. etc.

The idea of "the Catalyst saving us all" runs true to the idea of salvation etc., another idea strongly rooted in various religious beliefs.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Davik Kang wrote...

masster blaster wrote...
Okay um I read a post on a thread, and somebody said " The Catalyst could save us all." Um I think people are actually likeing the Catalyst, although it is a Synthesis supporter that said this.

RavenEyry wrote...
They're in a minority. They're fun to ridicule though, like fundamentalists.

It's unfortunate to say, but Synthesis is a lot like a realisation of a final destination of life/existence as imagined by many religions (in ME and real life).  A kind of final Utopia where conflict and strife are no longer necessary.  Hope I don't offend people too much when I suggest that Shepard jumping into that beam is as egotistical as declaring oneself the new Messiah and bringing all life into the new age, the day of reckoning, etc. etc.

The idea of "the Catalyst saving us all" runs true to the idea of salvation etc., another idea strongly rooted in various religious beliefs.

Indeed.

Probelems just start to arise when you force that change on everyone else without consent and when done in a Sci-Fi setting which has shown several examples of how bad it can go when you try to play with things beyond your understanding or force a certain evolution.

[spotlessvoid]

RM...
You know what, I've actually made that suggestion before. It slipped my mind entirely. The question then remains what are the consequences of the choices? And that's such a bleak ending if conventional victory is impossible.

Davik...
Very well put

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 24 novembre 2012 - 08:39 .

[Davik Kang]

 @spotless:

I can't speak for DD, I don't know what his datapad idea is when fully fleshed out.  What might make sense, if he's right, is that the Crucible is basically a red herring.  It's something we pool all our resources into, even though it ultimately has no useful affect for the war effort whatsoever.  It might even be a big battery to power the new Citadel Reaper, but that's all speculation.  If it's a red herring, what other purpose it serves doesn't really matter.

The beam would then be an indoctrination device, and the Crucible project is the Reaper idea that ultimately sends the new leader of the cycle (in this case Shepard) directly to his own enthrallment.  Therefore the post-Harby blast dream happens exactly as harby describes.  If Shepard breaks indoctrination, he resumes the fight with the others, and it becomes apparent that the idea of an unstoppable Reaper army is merely the result of well-dispersed misinformation by sleeper agents, and the war is completely winnable.  

This is the implication of the datapads DD showed us (where the colonists would in fact guarantee vicotry over Cerberus if only they would fight back, because unbeknownst to them, they hugely outnumber the Cerberus forces)

[MegumiAzusa]

By the way, I always wondered, the vision where Liara says "It's Ilos"... you see a huge yellow nebular with lots of suns and "planets". Then we arrive and it doesn't look like that at all. Then in ME2 we arrive at the collector base and it looks like this

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 24 novembre 2012 - 08:38 .

[Rifneno]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

By the way, I always wondered, the vision where Liara says "It's Ilos"... you see a huge yellow nebular with lots of suns and "planets". Then we arrive and it doesn't look like that at all. Then in ME2 we arrive at the collector base and it looks like this

Ilos underwent some massive unknown cataclysm too.  It was never explained or even really touched upon beyond the planetary description and atmosphere.

[BleedingUranium]

One of the ideas I had for a way we could win would be to go through the Citadel relay, to the Reapers' home, with either just the Normandy, or the entire Earth fleet. Given that relays must have a sender and receiver, and that they would need somewhere to dock the Collector Black Arks and house the Collectors, there has the be a base of some sort there, and evil Citadel.

We go there, the Reapers panic and follow us through to defend it. We infiltrate the base, hack the systems so it forces all the Reapers into hibernation mode, leaving them vulnerable, as Vigil said. Then we destroy the base's eezo core Arrival-style, and take the Normandy/fleet back through, leaving the vast majority of the Reapers (because most of them were at Earth) to be killed in the blast.

Taking the fight to the Reapers' home, and having them freak out, panic, and be on the defensive, would be so awesomely badass, in an ME2 suicide mission type way.

Maybe, in order to destroy the base the Normandy can't go back through the relay, being forced to return to the galaxy at FTL, and Shepard, his seven organic human-sized squadmates, and pilot have to go into the eight cryo pods until they return sometime in the future. That'd be a pretty good way to write Shepard out of the next game, I think.

[Krimzie]

Davik Kang wrote...

masster blaster wrote...
Okay um I read a post on a thread, and somebody said " The Catalyst could save us all." Um I think people are actually likeing the Catalyst, although it is a Synthesis supporter that said this.

RavenEyry wrote...
They're in a minority. They're fun to ridicule though, like fundamentalists.

It's unfortunate to say, but Synthesis is a lot like a realisation of a final destination of life/existence as imagined by many religions (in ME and real life).  A kind of final Utopia where conflict and strife are no longer necessary.  Hope I don't offend people too much when I suggest that Shepard jumping into that beam is as egotistical as declaring oneself the new Messiah and bringing all life into the new age, the day of reckoning, etc. etc.

The idea of "the Catalyst saving us all" runs true to the idea of salvation etc., another idea strongly rooted in various religious beliefs.

Interesting and accruate comparison. So for giggles and poops let's pull one of the characters we know to have religious beliefs -- Ashely -- into the conversation. I don't think she'd ever pick anything but destroy if put in the same situation as Shep. And I wonder if that's because in religions as seen in ME and IRL, people would only accept a final Utopia when the cause of said Utopia and salvation is not in the hands of a person, or at the hands of any sort of "decision chamber," metaphorical or literal. It's the unknowable entity that gets the awe. It's like when you bring Liara and Javik to the Thessia mission. There are some LOLs to be had, but there's also a lot of challenge to the idea of direct meddling with evolutionary patterns.

Modifié par Krimzie, 24 novembre 2012 - 08:41 .

[Rifneno]

BleedingUranium wrote...

One of the ideas I had for a way we could win would be to go through the Citadel relay, to the Reapers' home, with either just the Normandy, or the entire Earth fleet. Given that relays must have a sender and receiver, and that they would need somewhere to dock the Collector Black Arks and house the Collectors, there has the be a base of some sort there, and evil Citadel.

We go there, the Reapers panic and follow us through to defend it. We infiltrate the base, hack the systems so it forces all the Reapers into hibernation mode, leaving them vulnerable, as Vigil said. Then we destroy the base's eezo core Arrival-style, and take the Normandy/fleet back through, leaving the vast majority of the Reapers (because most of them were at Earth) to be killed in the blast.

Taking the fight to the Reapers' home, and having them freak out, panic, and be on the defensive, would be so awesomely badass, in an ME2 suicide mission type way.

Maybe, in order to destroy the base the Normandy can't go back through the relay, being forced to return to the galaxy at FTL, and Shepard, his seven organic human-sized squadmates, and pilot have to go into the eight cryo pods until they return sometime in the future. That'd be a pretty good way to write Shepard out of the next game, I think.

Sounds too complicated.  Can't we just send Tony Stark through carrying a nuke?

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

spotlessvoid wrote...

RM...
You know what, I've actually made that suggestion before. It slipped my mind entirely. The question then remains what are the consequences of the choices? And that's such a bleak ending if conventional victory is impossible.

The Consequences of the choices is purely if Shepard is Indoctrinated or not. It is all in his head, at least that is what i believe.

As for how e could win. Well we still ahve the Crucible and it still generates a ginormous amount of energy, we just need to guide it somewhere. Possible ideas include:

Turning the Citadel into a massive Mass Accelerator Cannon capable of tearing the Reapers apart, kinda like the shot which destroyed the Derelict Reaper and strafed Klendagon.

Or overloading the Citadel Relay destroying everything in the Earth system. A hrasher choice as even if we save most of the fleet earth will be destroyed along with anyone still on it. But i could easily see this happening.

[BleedingUranium]

Rifneno wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

One of the ideas I had for a way we could win would be to go through the Citadel relay, to the Reapers' home, with either just the Normandy, or the entire Earth fleet. Given that relays must have a sender and receiver, and that they would need somewhere to dock the Collector Black Arks and house the Collectors, there has the be a base of some sort there, and evil Citadel.

We go there, the Reapers panic and follow us through to defend it. We infiltrate the base, hack the systems so it forces all the Reapers into hibernation mode, leaving them vulnerable, as Vigil said. Then we destroy the base's eezo core Arrival-style, and take the Normandy/fleet back through, leaving the vast majority of the Reapers (because most of them were at Earth) to be killed in the blast.

Taking the fight to the Reapers' home, and having them freak out, panic, and be on the defensive, would be so awesomely badass, in an ME2 suicide mission type way.

Maybe, in order to destroy the base the Normandy can't go back through the relay, being forced to return to the galaxy at FTL, and Shepard, his seven organic human-sized squadmates, and pilot have to go into the eight cryo pods until they return sometime in the future. That'd be a pretty good way to write Shepard out of the next game, I think.

Sounds too complicated.  Can't we just send Tony Stark through carrying a nuke?

That'd pretty much exactly what I imagined, though the Normandy may or may not return.

[spotlessvoid]

Davik, the only thing off about that idea is refuse ending. The crucible is a trap, but refusing to use it gets you indoctrinated? I guess you could argue Shepard doesn't know it's a trap and that it still represents a failure of his will to fight, but refuse doesn't feel like giving up, especially to a Shepard/player who thinks the crucible is a trap once on the decision chamber. You could also argue it's from the EC, and therefore thrown in due to player outcry and wasn't as well thought through by the writers

[Rifneno]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Or overloading the Citadel Relay destroying everything in the Earth system. A hrasher choice as even if we save most of the fleet earth will be destroyed along with anyone still on it. But i could easily see this happening.

This is not a viable option for two reasons.

1. The notion that the Reapers are all or even mostly at Earth is a grossly inaccurate one.  They sent a bunch of reinforcements to Earth, but it's still not even close to their full force.  Look at the galaxy map before heading to Earth.  See how just about the entire ****ing Milky Way is covered in Reapers?

2. Reapers aren't a planet full of batarians.  As powerful as the explosion from a relay is, it still doesn't expand at FTL.  Which means that the Reapers can see it coming and simply engage their own FTL drives and get the hell out of dodge.  They can outrun the blast essentially.  Very, very easily.

[BleedingUranium]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Davik, the only thing off about that idea is refuse ending. The crucible is a trap, but refusing to use it gets you indoctrinated? I guess you could argue Shepard doesn't know it's a trap and that it still represents a failure of his will to fight, but refuse doesn't feel like giving up, especially to a Shepard/player who thinks the crucible is a trap once on the decision chamber. You could also argue it's from the EC, and therefore thrown in due to player outcry and wasn't as well thought through by the writers

That coupled with the lack of a breath scene means I can't see it as being good. That's aside from the fact that refusing is never what the hero does at the end of a story.

[demersel]

In ME1 we're working for the Council, and at the end there is an option to either help them, or not.
In ME2 we're working for Cerberus, and at the end there is an option to either help them or not.
Who do we work for in ME3? I mean really?
It would really make much sense if really in ME3 we;re working for the Reapers (ungkowingly), and that way at the end the is an option to either help them or not.

[BleedingUranium]

Rifneno wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Or overloading the Citadel Relay destroying everything in the Earth system. A hrasher choice as even if we save most of the fleet earth will be destroyed along with anyone still on it. But i could easily see this happening.

This is not a viable option for two reasons.

1. The notion that the Reapers are all or even mostly at Earth is a grossly inaccurate one.  They sent a bunch of reinforcements to Earth, but it's still not even close to their full force.  Look at the galaxy map before heading to Earth.  See how just about the entire ****ing Milky Way is covered in Reapers?

2. Reapers aren't a planet full of batarians.  As powerful as the explosion from a relay is, it still doesn't expand at FTL.  Which means that the Reapers can see it coming and simply engage their own FTL drives and get the hell out of dodge.  They can outrun the blast essentially.  Very, very easily.

I write that off as gameplay mechanics, both so you can't go anywhere but Earth (because if you couldn't go somewhere and it didn't have the Reaper symbol, you'd be all WTF), and to create a sense of urgency for the player.