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[spotlessvoid]

I actually really like Blurs idea. Especially the core concept of taking it to the Reapers home.
Could be the intelligence, if it isn't Harbinger, is actually there too.

[Krimzie]

spotlessvoid wrote...

The crucible is a trap, but refusing to use it gets you indoctrinated? I guess you could argue Shepard doesn't know it's a trap and that it still represents a failure of his will to fight, but refuse doesn't feel like giving up, especially to a Shepard/player who thinks the crucible is a trap once on the decision chamber. You could also argue it's from the EC, and therefore thrown in due to player outcry and wasn't as well thought through by the writers

This has me thinking. I'm wondering if the mental space in which Shepard is functioning post-beam-run is the only thing keeping him alive. He's forced to make a decision in this virtual or hallucinatory dream space, two (+ refuse) of which will kill him, and one of which only saves him because it destroys the Reaper responsible for establishing the hallucinatory ultimatium. 

So in this way I guess it's still a trap, but refuse lets you die while exercising your right to refuse the logic?

Oh, refuse ending, why doth thou muddy everything?

[BleedingUranium]

Krimzie wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

The crucible is a trap, but refusing to use it gets you indoctrinated? I guess you could argue Shepard doesn't know it's a trap and that it still represents a failure of his will to fight, but refuse doesn't feel like giving up, especially to a Shepard/player who thinks the crucible is a trap once on the decision chamber. You could also argue it's from the EC, and therefore thrown in due to player outcry and wasn't as well thought through by the writers

This has me thinking. I'm wondering if the mental space in which Shepard is functioning post-beam-run is the only thing keeping him alive. He's forced to make a decision in this virtual or hallucinatory dream space, two (+ refuse) of which will kill him, and one of which only saves him because it destroys the Reaper responsible for establishing the hallucinatory ultimatium. 

So in this way I guess it's still a trap, but refuse lets you die while exercising your right to refuse the logic?

Oh, refuse ending, why doth thou muddy everything?

Yeah, refuse is exactly what Shepard says it is: Dying free.

[demersel]

- Do you truly belive that what you're about to do is right and needs to be done?
- I do.
- And are you ready to die for that belief?
- I am. (shoots him), Although it isn't exaclty plan A.

[IronSabbath88]

After reading a lot of this, I've come up with what I think the Crucible is.

It's definitely a trap, and I think the whole point of it is to get the races to pool all their valuable resources in it like was stated, thus leaving them with nothing to truly combat the reapers who just come in and wipe them out.

I also think that a conventional victory is possible and that we'll find out the reapers aren't as big in number as they would have us believe.

Whether you're successful/live or die or not depends on our war assets ultimately of course. Sure, we wasted all those resources on the useless reaper trap that doesn't do anything but make the Citadel look prettier but the reapers didn't expect us to fight back after it all. You can also say it's a spirit killer of sorts.

[spotlessvoid]

So if Shepard wakes up, is he still going to want to activate the crucible? Why would the indoctrination attempt dissuade him from trying?

[IronSabbath88]

Of course he will, and it's at that point they realize the Crucible was a giant waste of time.

[spotlessvoid]

I guess Shepard would try for real before figuring out it's a trap? Or maybe figuring out a way to turn it against the Reapers?

I guess it makes sense of destroy being shown as victorious. The Reapers still maintain a little control over the situation by having Shepard still believe he can successfully use the crucible.

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 24 novembre 2012 - 09:09 .

[Rifneno]

I don't know why people keep thinking the Reapers can be beaten in a straight up fight. You don't really think they've been doing it for this long without someone just hitting them with everything they've got, right?

I mean hell, look at the end of ME1. Look at all they were throwing at Sovereign. What did they get? This:

Human commander: Sovereign's too strong! We have to pull back!
Hackett: Negative! This is our only chance! Take that monster down, no matter what the cost!

This was the entire Arcturus fleet along with the Citadel defense fleet and the Destiny Ascension engaging one Reaper that was immobile and couldn't fire his main gun. When they eventually did win, it was because of what Shepard did with his avatar and not because of the fleet battle. You think we can take hundreds, if not thousands of these in a conventional battle? It's not happening.

[dorktainian]

Shepard is the Catalyst. The crudible...yeah lets attach a big battery to the crucible which just happends to be an enormous mass relay - whihc if it went boom would probably take out the whole quadrant......

Good Idea? Give me some of what hackett was on.

[BleedingUranium]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I guess Shepard would try for real before figuring out it's a trap? Or maybe figuring out a way to turn it against the Reapers?

Either of those or the idea that his connection to Harbinger's mind would reveal it, so he would know as soon as he wakes up.

[BleedingUranium]

Rifneno wrote...

I don't know why people keep thinking the Reapers can be beaten in a straight up fight. You don't really think they've been doing it for this long without someone just hitting them with everything they've got, right?

I mean hell, look at the end of ME1. Look at all they were throwing at Sovereign. What did they get? This:

Human commander: Sovereign's too strong! We have to pull back!
Hackett: Negative! This is our only chance! Take that monster down, no matter what the cost!

This was the entire Arcturus fleet along with the Citadel defense fleet and the Destiny Ascension engaging one Reaper that was immobile and couldn't fire his main gun. When they eventually did win, it was because of what Shepard did with his avatar and not because of the fleet battle. You think we can take hundreds, if not thousands of these in a conventional battle? It's not happening.

Yes I do, that's the point of our cycle.

Eight unprepared ships without Thanix cannons vs this fleet all with them, even the fighters? I think I'll take my chances.

[Rifneno]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Yes I do, that's the point of our cycle.

Eight unprepared ships without Thanix cannons vs this fleet all with them, even the fighters? I think I'll take my chances.

Total capital ships seen destroyed by that fleet: Zero

[IronSabbath88]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I don't know why people keep thinking the Reapers can be beaten in a straight up fight. You don't really think they've been doing it for this long without someone just hitting them with everything they've got, right?

I mean hell, look at the end of ME1. Look at all they were throwing at Sovereign. What did they get? This:

Human commander: Sovereign's too strong! We have to pull back!
Hackett: Negative! This is our only chance! Take that monster down, no matter what the cost!

This was the entire Arcturus fleet along with the Citadel defense fleet and the Destiny Ascension engaging one Reaper that was immobile and couldn't fire his main gun. When they eventually did win, it was because of what Shepard did with his avatar and not because of the fleet battle. You think we can take hundreds, if not thousands of these in a conventional battle? It's not happening.

Yes I do, that's the point of our cycle.

Eight unprepared ships without Thanix cannons vs this fleet all with them, even the fighters? I think I'll take my chances.

The thing is, I just said my idea that the Crucible is a trap in the form of a resource waster. Hence, all these races already pooled EVERYTHING into this Crucbile superweapon in desperation. NOBODY has ever finished it besides the current cycle. Why is that? Because they simply ran out of resources and they were just lambs to the slaughter at that point. There was no way they could combat the reapers after that.

Not to mention, from the looks of things, it doesn't look like the Protheans had very advanced weaponry and ships, unlike the current galaxy. Remember, the Protheans didn't build anything we credit them to, not the Citadel, not the mass relays. Infact, dare I say but the Protheans seemed like your average ho hum race, which is why Javik doesn't quite get WHY Liara worships his people as some sort of gods. There was nothing godlike about them.

[spotlessvoid]

We cant win a straight up fight like Rif points out. That doesn't mean that there isn't some alternative being planed, or that the crucible can't be turned on the Reapers in some way, even if it just involves overloading it. The question is then what collateral damage would that cost to the fleets and earth, and is it possible to use it to disrupt Reaper shields? Even if it takes out the fleets shields, that doesn't change much since Reaper lasers cut through anything. We would still get obliterated, except for one thing: I have a feeling Harbinger and Sovereign class Reapers aren't willing to take substantial losses, even if it's something like 30% dead Reapers to 80% dead organic fleet. Would the Reapers really be willing to take such heavy losses (considering the difficulty in replacing actual Reapers) just to devastate this cycles fleets, or would they retreat and take a different tactic?

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 24 novembre 2012 - 09:21 .

[BansheeOwnage]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I don't know why people keep thinking the Reapers can be beaten in a straight up fight. You don't really think they've been doing it for this long without someone just hitting them with everything they've got, right?

I mean hell, look at the end of ME1. Look at all they were throwing at Sovereign. What did they get? This:

Human commander: Sovereign's too strong! We have to pull back!
Hackett: Negative! This is our only chance! Take that monster down, no matter what the cost!

This was the entire Arcturus fleet along with the Citadel defense fleet and the Destiny Ascension engaging one Reaper that was immobile and couldn't fire his main gun. When they eventually did win, it was because of what Shepard did with his avatar and not because of the fleet battle. You think we can take hundreds, if not thousands of these in a conventional battle? It's not happening.

Yes I do, that's the point of our cycle.

Eight unprepared ships without Thanix cannons vs this fleet all with them, even the fighters? I think I'll take my chances.

The thing is, I just said my idea that the Crucible is a trap in the form of a resource waster. Hence, all these races already pooled EVERYTHING into this Crucbile superweapon in desperation. NOBODY has ever finished it besides the current cycle. Why is that? Because they simply ran out of resources and they were just lambs to the slaughter at that point. There was no way they could combat the reapers after that.

Not to mention, from the looks of things, it doesn't look like the Protheans had very advanced weaponry and ships, unlike the current galaxy. Remember, the Protheans didn't build anything we credit them to, not the Citadel, not the mass relays. Infact, dare I say but the Protheans seemed like your average ho hum race, which is why Javik doesn't quite get WHY Liara worships his people as some sort of gods. There was nothing godlike about them.

Naw, the protheans were superawesome (IMO) and far more advanced than the current cycle.

[Rifneno]

spotlessvoid wrote...

We cant win a straight up fight like Rif points out. That doesn't mean that there isn't some alternative being planed, or that the crucible can't be turned on the Reapers in some way, even if it just involves overloading it. The question is then what collateral damage would that cost to the fleets and earth, and is it possible to use it to disrupt Reaper shields? I have a feeling Harbinger and Sovereign class Reapers aren't willing to take substantial losses, even if it's something like 30% dead Reapers to 80% dead organic fleet. Would the Reapers really be willing to take such heavy losses (considering the difficulty in replacing actual Reapers) just to devastate this cycles fleets, or would they retreat and take a different tactic?

Oh yes, definitely.  I'm not saying the Trapible is the answer, just that we can't beat them in a straight up fist-fight.  We need to find and exploit a weakness.  I still say that weakness is FTL projectiles BTW.

[Bill Casey]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I don't know why people keep thinking the Reapers can be beaten in a straight up fight. You don't really think they've been doing it for this long without someone just hitting them with everything they've got, right?

I mean hell, look at the end of ME1. Look at all they were throwing at Sovereign. What did they get? This:

Human commander: Sovereign's too strong! We have to pull back!
Hackett: Negative! This is our only chance! Take that monster down, no matter what the cost!

This was the entire Arcturus fleet along with the Citadel defense fleet and the Destiny Ascension engaging one Reaper that was immobile and couldn't fire his main gun. When they eventually did win, it was because of what Shepard did with his avatar and not because of the fleet battle. You think we can take hundreds, if not thousands of these in a conventional battle? It's not happening.

Yes I do, that's the point of our cycle.

Eight unprepared ships without Thanix cannons vs this fleet all with them, even the fighters? I think I'll take my chances.

- Add Thanix Cannons to the Normandy
- Board the Derelict Reaper
- Ask EDI and Joker to punch a hole in the Reaper's kinetic barrier

They cannot...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 24 novembre 2012 - 09:23 .

[BansheeOwnage]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I don't know why people keep thinking the Reapers can be beaten in a straight up fight. You don't really think they've been doing it for this long without someone just hitting them with everything they've got, right?

I mean hell, look at the end of ME1. Look at all they were throwing at Sovereign. What did they get? This:

Human commander: Sovereign's too strong! We have to pull back!
Hackett: Negative! This is our only chance! Take that monster down, no matter what the cost!

This was the entire Arcturus fleet along with the Citadel defense fleet and the Destiny Ascension engaging one Reaper that was immobile and couldn't fire his main gun. When they eventually did win, it was because of what Shepard did with his avatar and not because of the fleet battle. You think we can take hundreds, if not thousands of these in a conventional battle? It's not happening.

Yes I do, that's the point of our cycle.

Eight unprepared ships without Thanix cannons vs this fleet all with them, even the fighters? I think I'll take my chances.

Hell yeah!

[BleedingUranium]

Rifneno wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Yes I do, that's the point of our cycle.

Eight unprepared ships without Thanix cannons vs this fleet all with them, even the fighters? I think I'll take my chances.

Total capital ships seen destroyed by that fleet: Zero

One lost two legs, and two others had massive explosions on them, but we couldn't tell either way. Also, total allied ships seen lost? One.

Seems like a stalemate to me.

[BansheeOwnage]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Maybe, in order to destroy the base the Normandy can't go back through the relay, being forced to return to the galaxy at FTL, and Shepard, his seven organic human-sized squadmates, and pilot have to go into the eight cryo pods until they return sometime in the future. That'd be a pretty good way to write Shepard out of the next game, I think.

Sounds too complicated.  Can't we just send Tony Stark through carrying a nuke?

That'd pretty much exactly what I imagined, though the Normandy may or may not return.

Maybe it would depend on war assets or something else. Who knows. Actually, wouldn't it be awesome if in ME6 (assuming there will be another trilogy) the Normandy returned and totally saved everyone?
Well, I do.

[demersel]

Rifneno wrote...
Oh yes, definitely.  I'm not saying the Trapible is the answer, just that we can't beat them in a straight up fist-fight.  We need to find and exploit a weakness.  I still say that weakness is FTL projectiles BTW.

We should shoot them with FTL projectiles filled with infiltration suicide crews  - Geth dreadnought + derelict reaper style. 
And throw some asteroid at them at FTL speeds - that will just feel nice for a change. 

And yes, straight out fist fight with them is pointless. 

[IronSabbath88]

Let's assume for a minute that Harbinger IS the intelligence Leviathan spoke of, he's the one that all reapers have uploaded into them along with the cycles passed.

Is it possible that bringing down Harbinger will either greatly weaken the other reapers or perhaps kill them outright? Sure it seems farfetched but seeing if Harbinger IS the intelligence and is taken down, who knows what happens then.

[spotlessvoid]

If the fleets can cause the Reapers enough important losses to reconsider a direct engagement, that could buy this cycle a lot of time. If it's done conventionally just through upgraded weaponry, then this cycle potentially can wreak havoc on the Reapers. The question is who loses the war of attrition first? If the crucible is used to make the Reapers vulnerable, then the Reapers wouldn't be in much danger after retreating from Earth. I'd assume the Reapers shields wouldn't stay down, so we would have to survive long enough to figure out what brought down the shields and then weaponize it. We obviously aren't building more crucibles and if the citadel is required in any way...we only have one of those.

[BleedingUranium]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

Let's assume for a minute that Harbinger IS the intelligence Leviathan spoke of, he's the one that all reapers have uploaded into them along with the cycles passed.

Is it possible that bringing down Harbinger will either greatly weaken the other reapers or perhaps kill them outright? Sure it seems farfetched but seeing if Harbinger IS the intelligence and is taken down, who knows what happens then.

Kill them, nah, but weaken them? I could definitely see that happening. I think breaking indoc will either weaken Harbinger or let us see some of his secrets, because a tangible effect would be nice.