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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#50926
Guest_SwobyJ_*

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ean0611 wrote...

I just played KOTOR again.

So for people talking about a connection between the reapers and Shepard due to Sovereign, remember Bastilla and Revan. This has been done before.

Also for the twist angle, there are tons of hints that you are Revan during gameplay, especially if you go to Kashyyyk before Leviathan. The comptuer on Kashyyyk, directly says "your" memories.

I'm playing Jade Empire again waiting for Omega DLC. After the credits of KOTOR rolled, a lot of familiar names came up. Bioware really does have an awesome writing team. There's too much hints in this game to be "bad writing", as they all pretty much point to the same thing.

I really hope the reveal comes soon.


I'm at that point too, and I beat KOTOR recently-ish.

It's not just 'if IT is happening' - its 'if they choose to reveal it in Mass Effect 3 itself', to me, at this point.

And yes, the Mordin betrayal scene is depicted that way, with its own music, for a reason. Betrayal of Mordin is pretty much the most ruthless thing Shepard could do at that point in the story, and it is very similar, though not quite identical to the betrayal of Nihlus.

Nihlus and Saren were close friends btw. Nihlus was recruited into the Spectres because of Saren, and he was Saren's protege.


EDIT: A lot of Mass Effect 3, if we put into the context of IT, is interesting for the morality system:
-Paragon opens himself up to a weakened resolve, but saves the galaxy until the end
-Renegade wrecks the galaxy (comparatively), but stands his ground against possible Reaper manipulation

Yet that's not really true. There's actually another layer. "Shepard" and "Indoctrinated". Are you going to bring the galaxy together, through Paragon or Renegade means? Or are you going to scatter and weaken it? Now THAT, that ...won't be reflected by simple red or blue colors...

Modifié par SwobyJ, 24 novembre 2012 - 10:17 .


#50927
BansheeOwnage

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SwobyJ wrote...

ean0611 wrote...

I just played KOTOR again.

So for people talking about a connection between the reapers and Shepard due to Sovereign, remember Bastilla and Revan. This has been done before.

Also for the twist angle, there are tons of hints that you are Revan during gameplay, especially if you go to Kashyyyk before Leviathan. The comptuer on Kashyyyk, directly says "your" memories.

I'm playing Jade Empire again waiting for Omega DLC. After the credits of KOTOR rolled, a lot of familiar names came up. Bioware really does have an awesome writing team. There's too much hints in this game to be "bad writing", as they all pretty much point to the same thing.

I really hope the reveal comes soon.


I'm at that point too, and I beat KOTOR recently-ish.

It's not just 'if IT is happening' - its 'if they choose to reveal it in Mass Effect 3 itself', to me, at this poing.

And yes, the Mordin betrayal scene is depicted that way, with its own music, for a reason. Betrayal of Mordin is pretty much the most ruthless thing Shepard could do at that point in the story, and it is very similar, though not quite identical to the betrayal of Nihlus.

Nihlus and Saren were close friends btw. Nihlus was recruited into the Spectres because of Saren, and he was Saren's protege.

Also, they both used a Carnifex...

#50928
DJBare

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

Hello DJBare. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

Odd, my text did not appear, never mind, Hi Banshee and the rest of the crowd, that will save me some extra typing :devil:

Modifié par DJBare, 24 novembre 2012 - 10:17 .


#50929
BansheeOwnage

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SwobyJ wrote...

Oh boy... halo.wikia.com/wiki/Composer_%28artifact%29

HALO 4 SPOILERS

Created when the Didact
refused to give up the Mantle, the Composer was originally intended
to allow the Forerunners to become immortal. The Didact pursues this
piece of technology in Halo 4.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I understant now! Harbinger/Didact is the catalyst! He attemped to bridge organics and synthetics (and failed) to create his own army! He also disregards moral concerns and betrayed his species/creators!

#50930
demersel

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SwobyJ wrote...

Yet that's not really true. There's actually another layer. "Shepard" and "Indoctrinated". Are you going to bring the galaxy together, through Paragon or Renegade means? Or are you going to scatter and weaken it? Now THAT, that ...won't be reflected by simple red or blue colors...


That is actually how it really is. You can still bring the galaxy together AND not open yourself to indoctrination much. - but for that you need to combine renegade and paragon choices, and really make the choice not depending on renegade or paragon, but on the situation at hand. 

#50931
masster blaster

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You know I brought the Renagde Paragon thing, but most of you all chewd me out. :( I even showed you all how shooting Mordin was like Saren shooting our Turian budy MR. N

#50932
Guest_SwobyJ_*

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BleedingUranium wrote...

One of the ideas I had for a way we could win would be to go through the Citadel relay, to the Reapers' home, with either just the Normandy, or the entire Earth fleet. Given that relays must have a sender and receiver, and that they would need somewhere to dock the Collector Black Arks and house the Collectors, there has the be a base of some sort there, and evil Citadel.

We go there, the Reapers panic and follow us through to defend it. We infiltrate the base, hack the systems so it forces all the Reapers into hibernation mode, leaving them vulnerable, as Vigil said. Then we destroy the base's eezo core Arrival-style, and take the Normandy/fleet back through, leaving the vast majority of the Reapers (because most of them were at Earth) to be killed in the blast.

Taking the fight to the Reapers' home, and having them freak out, panic, and be on the defensive, would be so awesomely badass, in an ME2 suicide mission type way.

Maybe, in order to destroy the base the Normandy can't go back through the relay, being forced to return to the galaxy at FTL, and Shepard, his seven organic human-sized squadmates, and pilot have to go into the eight cryo pods until they return sometime in the future. That'd be a pretty good way to write Shepard out of the next game, I think.


This also reminds me of a leak...

Omega DLC
Citadel DLC
Rebirth DLC (Rio? Wake up? Earth? War Assets?)
But there's also another DLC, about heading to the fringes of the galaxy or something. Hmmmm.

#50933
masster blaster

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But it's okay and hey DJ is back cool. Now all we need is Otter, Arian, and the rest of the gang and we can start an IT band. :)

#50934
BleedingUranium

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SwobyJ wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

One of the ideas I had for a way we could win would be to go through the Citadel relay, to the Reapers' home, with either just the Normandy, or the entire Earth fleet. Given that relays must have a sender and receiver, and that they would need somewhere to dock the Collector Black Arks and house the Collectors, there has the be a base of some sort there, and evil Citadel.

We go there, the Reapers panic and follow us through to defend it. We infiltrate the base, hack the systems so it forces all the Reapers into hibernation mode, leaving them vulnerable, as Vigil said. Then we destroy the base's eezo core Arrival-style, and take the Normandy/fleet back through, leaving the vast majority of the Reapers (because most of them were at Earth) to be killed in the blast.

Taking the fight to the Reapers' home, and having them freak out, panic, and be on the defensive, would be so awesomely badass, in an ME2 suicide mission type way.

Maybe, in order to destroy the base the Normandy can't go back through the relay, being forced to return to the galaxy at FTL, and Shepard, his seven organic human-sized squadmates, and pilot have to go into the eight cryo pods until they return sometime in the future. That'd be a pretty good way to write Shepard out of the next game, I think.


This also reminds me of a leak...

Omega DLC
Citadel DLC
Rebirth DLC (Rio? Wake up? Earth? War Assets?)
But there's also another DLC, about heading to the fringes of the galaxy or something. Hmmmm.


Hmm, someone should post the leak again.

#50935
masster blaster

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The Rebirth dlc for some reason reminds me of the futurama episode called The Rebirth. Oh and I think maybe Shepard is patched up/ reborn, but not with the Synthetic implants.

Also about Destroy. Shepard isn't really excepting that Catalyst logic as much if you pick Destroy. In refuse Shepard is rejecting the choices, not his logic as much either. Furthermore I believe Destroy is

" I am going to win this war, and I am going to send the Reapers back to hell." Also Shepard is basicaly saying " maybe your right maybe the cycle will start over, but it desn't matter the galaxy now knows how to make peace with Synthetics, and we make our own god dam future without you, and your Reapers."

Modifié par masster blaster, 24 novembre 2012 - 10:43 .


#50936
BansheeOwnage

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ATTENTION IT TEAM. DUE TO POPULAR DEMAND, I HAVE CREATED A TOPIC IN THE IT GROUP WITH MY WORDS OF AWESOME DOCUMENT IN IT.

Warning: If you thought Arian's walls of text were impressive, wait until you see this.

ADDITIONAL WARNING: Make sure you play this music while you look at the scope of the post.





Words of Awesome™

#50937
Davik Kang

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BansheeOwnage wrote...
Words of Awesome™

I am not on the list, so the whole thing sucks.

#50938
masster blaster

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Guys what we forget that Anderson tells Shepard.

Anderson: Shepard I was born here in London, and it looks like I am going to die here to.

Yet he doesn't, but on the Citadel, unless as Shepard wakes up Anderson holds out the Reaper forces until help arrives, and depending on your assets/ the chocies you made, Anderson can either die in London, or live. Hence maybe that fury you saw in the Earth trailer is Anderson, but with a diffrent modle.

#50939
BansheeOwnage

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masster blaster wrote...

Guys what we forget that Anderson tells Shepard.

Anderson: Shepard I was born here in London, and it looks like I am going to die here to.

Yet he doesn't, but on the Citadel, unless as Shepard wakes up Anderson holds out the Reaper forces until help arrives, and depending on your assets/ the chocies you made, Anderson can either die in London, or live. Hence maybe that fury you saw in the Earth trailer is Anderson, but with a diffrent modle.

OMG MB that's exactly what Blur and I thought in my Rio analysis.

But you're right. It's very strange writing to have Anderson say "I might die in London" then have him not die there, or live there, but have him die somewhere else! What?

#50940
demersel

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Davik Kang wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Words of Awesome™

I am not on the list, so the whole thing sucks.


+1 

#50941
BansheeOwnage

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Davik Kang wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Words of Awesome™

I am not on the list, so the whole thing sucks.

Posted Image

That's strange actually because you've written some good stuff. Did you read my header?

I'm sorry if I missed your great post, but I don't see everything so feel free to create your own doctument! :)

Though I admit, I sometimes only skim through long posts. Posted Image Posted Image

#50942
byne

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

Words of Awesome™


Lets just acknowledge that the first thing everyone does when they go to that list is ctrl+f [Their Name].

Because thats totally what I did. :D

#50943
Restrider

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spotlessvoid wrote...

I guess Shepard would try for real before figuring out it's a trap? Or maybe figuring out a way to turn it against the Reapers?

I guess it makes sense of destroy being shown as victorious. The Reapers still maintain a little control over the situation by having Shepard still believe he can successfully use the crucible.

A few pages back I've discussed the concept of mental links between Reapers and indoctrination victims. Maybe that is a way to get information regarding the Crucible - it's porpuse and how to use it against the Reapers.

#50944
BansheeOwnage

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byne wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Words of Awesome™


Lets just acknowledge that the first thing everyone does when they go to that list is ctrl+f [Their Name].

Because thats totally what I did. :D

Yeah, I figured that's what would happen. Posted Image

@Everyone Try not to get insulted if you don't have stuff there. Posted Image

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 24 novembre 2012 - 11:04 .


#50945
BansheeOwnage

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demersel wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Words of Awesome™

I am not on the list, so the whole thing sucks.


+1 

Dem, you are on the list. Posted Image

#50946
Davik Kang

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Words of Awesome™

I am not on the list, so the whole thing sucks.

Posted Image

That's strange actually because you've written some good stuff. Did you read my header?

I'm sorry if I missed your great post, but I don't see everything so feel free to create your own doctument! :)

Though I admit, I sometimes only skim through long posts. Posted Image Posted Image


No no you had it right the first time.  Remember, if you carefully go through all my posts, you will realise I am a sleeper agent, trying to bring you down from within by convincing you with subtle planted thoughts that IT is actually not true.

Or is this reverse psychology?  Or reverse reverse reverse reverse psychology?  What's going on here?  Is this real?  Where'd the elevator go?

Etc.

#50947
byne

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

byne wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Words of Awesome™


Lets just acknowledge that the first thing everyone does when they go to that list is ctrl+f [Their Name].

Because thats totally what I did. :D

Yeah, I figured that's what would happen. Posted Image

@Everyone Try not to get insulted if you don't have stuff there. Posted Image


Do you ever read stuff you wrote in the past and think 'That sounds far too intelligent to be something I said"?

Because that happens to me all the time.

#50948
spotlessvoid

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Banshee.....so much awesome concentrated in one place. Amazing.

#50949
Restrider

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spotlessvoid wrote...

If the fleets can cause the Reapers enough important losses to reconsider a direct engagement, that could buy this cycle a lot of time. If it's done conventionally just through upgraded weaponry, then this cycle potentially can wreak havoc on the Reapers. The question is who loses the war of attrition first? If the crucible is used to make the Reapers vulnerable, then the Reapers wouldn't be in much danger after retreating from Earth. I'd assume the Reapers shields wouldn't stay down, so we would have to survive long enough to figure out what brought down the shields and then weaponize it. We obviously aren't building more crucibles and if the citadel is required in any way...we only have one of those.

The problem with that idea is the following.
While the organics, now very aware of the Reaper thread and knowing the trap that are the Relay Network and the Citadel will prepare for return of the Reapers and replenish. The Reapers on the other hand can't do that in Dark Space, they require organics to be harvested to replenish their numbers.

Thus the Reapers are in an all-in situation in this cycle. They cannot retreat into dark space without harvesting and/or destroying all advanced civilizations and erase any traces (though the Refuse ending suggests that they suck at cleaning).

#50950
BleedingUranium

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I'm going to repost two things I wrote before from that list, because I like them:

BleedingUranium wrote...

What is Shepard in the Genophage arc? The catalyst that makes the cure possible. Even though his actions make the cure possible, he isn't directly involved in that arc. It's Wrex and Mordin's story, as well as the Krogan's, and to a lesser extent, the Salarian and Turians. No matter what happens, Wrex, Mordin, and the Krogan's story ends here.

What is Shepard in the Geth/Quarian conflict? The catalyst for peace. Even though his actions make peace possible, he isn't directly involved in that arc. It's Legion and Tali's story, as well as their repective races. No matter what happens, Legion, Tali, and their races' story ends here.

What is Shepard in the war against the Reapers? The catalyst of galactic unity. He convinces them to all put aside their differences, and to embrace them, to fight as one. He did the same on a smaller scale with his crew in ME1 and 2. This story isn't over yet.

Shepard makes all of these things possible, but they're not about Shepard himself, as a person.

Shepard's personal story is about fighting the Reapers, mostly mentally through indoctrination. This story ends at the breath scene. Shepard's journey is over, even if he's still involved in the overall plot.

The other cycles failed because they couldn't find the Catalyst; the one thing needed to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible may or may not be a trap, and may or may not work; it's irrelevant.

The Crucible is the Red Herring. Shepard is the key to victory; Shepard is the Catalyst.


BleedingUranium wrote...

Bioware said that some parts of the game are not meant to be taken literally.

Being a literalist means you have believe this statement.

Being a literalist means you have to take some parts of the game non-literally.

Literalists are crazy.