80611 réponses à ce sujet

[byne]

BleedingUranium wrote...

byne wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Deception Theory: Everything's real but the kid is trying to trick you. Refuse would be valid, if this theory wasn't more retarded than the literal theory.

...what?

So Deception theory basically is:

Godchild: Pick synthesis! I swear it will work and nothing bad will happen! *trollface*
*Shepard picks Synthesis*
Godchild: Fooled you!
*Synthesis happens*?

Something like that, I don't remember the details but it has more holes than literal. One of the biggest is that Destroy really will kill all the Reapers and he actually left it there. It's... so dumb!  It's for people that hate the kid and the endings, but also IT.

But how is that even a trick?

Its like if someone ran up to you and offered you $100, and you took it, then he shouted "****ING TRICKED YOU!" and ran off, leaving you with a brand new $100 bill.

[DoomsdayDevice]

BleedingUranium wrote...

401 Kill wrote...

demersel wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

I wouldn't say one is more than the other. Destroy you show you want to destroy the Reapers by acting on it.

Refuse you show you want to destroy the Reapers by saying it. "I did everything I could to stop you!"

Not really. 
In Control you want to control all the reapers.
In Synthesis you want to turn everyone into reapers.
In Destroy you want to destroy the reapers.
In Refuse you want to show the reapers that you can die free and on your own terms. 

Refuse can also be seen as "I don't trust you, there is another way to stop the Reapers without playing your game."

There's no place for that in IT though.

Literal Theory: You could pick any of the three options that are actually exactly what they look like, so not picking one is incredibly stupid.

Deception Theory: Everything's real but the kid is trying to trick you. Refuse would be valid, if this theory wasn't more retarded than the literal theory.

Indoctrination Theory: Nothing's real, they're all representative of possible goals Shepard can have. Destroy isn't created by the kid, and thus "refusing to play the kid's game" doesn't apply.

Yeah, if I'm right about the EDI analogy, then the destroy option was a defense mechanism triggered by Shepard's brain. It symbolizes that Shepard struggles, and reacts violently to the indoctrination attempt.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 25 novembre 2012 - 02:47 .

[masster blaster]

BleedingUranium wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Banshee let's think about this. Javik said along the lines .


Javik: Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters..
Then javik says :The silence is your answer.

 Well doesn't Shepard stay quiet when the brat get's angry and says

So be it.






Refuse is keeping Shepard's honor in tact,

In Refuse Shepard is now standing in the ashes of trillions of lives. Now ask them if honor matters. Remember refuse was only added to let people refuse the brat, but if Destroy ending is breaking free of Indoctrination, and if you look at we came up with this before refuse, and Bioware if they planned IT, was using Destroy right.

That's probably one of the best anti-refuse quotes ever. Sacrifices will have to be made to destroy the Reapers. Trying to save everyone is why a lot of people chose Control or Synthesis, and it's the same reason some pick Refuse.

Whether we can actually win conventionally doesn't matter, because this isn't happening. It's a test of what Shepard wants to do and what he's willing to sacrifice.

Modifié par masster blaster, 25 novembre 2012 - 02:44 .

[BleedingUranium]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

demersel wrote...

@ Jade. Let's make a little experiment.
Post here the text of Refuse speech. Just the text, not the link to a video.

"No, I can't make that choice, I wont. I fight for freedom, mine and everyone's. I fight for the right to choose our own fate. and *IF* I die, I'll die knowing that I did everything I could to stop you, and I'll die free."

Shepard isn't giving up because they can now die free, what a ****ing cop-out that is.

Shepard is saying that they aren't going to sacrifice every single synthetic in the galaxy to defeat the Reapers because they fight for EVERYBODYS freedom. Not just those that are convenient to reach her goal.

And war is about sacrifice, you can't save everyone. Doesn't matter that it's Geth, could be any group.

Besides, the games files are clear that everyone dies in Refuse. This can only be found by looking in the files, so why bother setting it if they didn't die?

Just the Geth, or everyone (including the Geth)?

[demersel]

Eryri wrote...

I will admit to having a soft spot for refuse. Perhaps because it's fun to show the middle finger to the Starbastard. It rings a little of the Captain Kirk - "forge your own path" option. It feels like a moral victory.

However, given the overwhelming power of the Reapers compared to the Alliance, it doesn't seem to be a rational decision for a military commander like Shepard to make. He would know that the chances of success would be slim to none.

How would you feel if hypothetical future DLC massively increased the strength of the fleet in a Puzzle Theory scenario? If Shepard has a more powerful fleet at his disposal, then refusal may be a more rational decision maybe? He might appraise his chances with the addition of Aria's fleet, or some stash of hidden Prothean weaponry and think "Yeah, I can take these guys."

EDIT: Sorry I've been kind of ninja'd by the speed of the discussion. 

Doesn't killing all reapers feel like a middle finger to them? 

You could destroy us, but...
Whatever - I'll just destroy you and we will see what happens!

The equvalent of Destroy as a middle finger would be shooting Anderson yourself one more time, right after Illusive man makes you to shoot him. 

illusive man - look at what they can do! Look at the power they wield! *makes you shoot Anderson"
shepard - Big deal! I can do that too! "shoots Anderson"

[byne]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

demersel wrote...

@ Jade. Let's make a little experiment.
Post here the text of Refuse speech. Just the text, not the link to a video.

"No, I can't make that choice, I wont. I fight for freedom, mine and everyone's. I fight for the right to choose our own fate. and *IF* I die, I'll die knowing that I did everything I could to stop you, and I'll die free."

Shepard isn't giving up because they can now die free, what a ****ing cop-out that is.

Shepard is saying that they aren't going to sacrifice every single synthetic in the galaxy to defeat the Reapers because they fight for EVERYBODYS freedom. Not just those that are convenient to reach her goal.

Last I checked, Casey Hudson described ME3's theme as victory through sacrifice.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

demersel wrote...

@ Jade. Let's make a little experiment.
Post here the text of Refuse speech. Just the text, not the link to a video.

"No, I can't make that choice, I wont. I fight for freedom, mine and everyone's. I fight for the right to choose our own fate. and *IF* I die, I'll die knowing that I did everything I could to stop you, and I'll die free."

Shepard isn't giving up because they can now die free, what a ****ing cop-out that is.

Shepard is saying that they aren't going to sacrifice every single synthetic in the galaxy to defeat the Reapers because they fight for EVERYBODYS freedom. Not just those that are convenient to reach her goal.

I think it's a moral victory. Not an actual victory.

Also, you are believing the catalyst when he says all synthetics will die.

Riddle me this then.

If the crucible doesn't discriminate, how come you control only Reapers in control, and not all synthetics?

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 25 novembre 2012 - 02:45 .

[byne]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

demersel wrote...

@ Jade. Let's make a little experiment.
Post here the text of Refuse speech. Just the text, not the link to a video.

"No, I can't make that choice, I wont. I fight for freedom, mine and everyone's. I fight for the right to choose our own fate. and *IF* I die, I'll die knowing that I did everything I could to stop you, and I'll die free."

Shepard isn't giving up because they can now die free, what a ****ing cop-out that is.

Shepard is saying that they aren't going to sacrifice every single synthetic in the galaxy to defeat the Reapers because they fight for EVERYBODYS freedom. Not just those that are convenient to reach her goal.

And war is about sacrifice, you can't save everyone. Doesn't matter that it's Geth, could be any group.

Besides, the games files are clear that everyone dies in Refuse. This can only be found by looking in the files, so why bother setting it if they didn't die?

Just the Geth, or everyone (including the Geth)?

And what if you sacrificed the geth on Rannoch? Then are you really gambling the galaxy's fate on just EDI's life?

[Davik Kang]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
Yeah, if I'm right about the EDI analogy, then the destroy option was a defense mechanism triggered by Shepard's brain. It symbolizes that Shepard struggles, and reacts violently to the indoctrination attempt.

That's interesting cos it actually works with TTG's idea of the Destroy mechanism being a defense mechanism stopping the Crucible from activating.  This could be what's frustrating the Reapers' efforts to indoctrinate.

However, if that's the case, then Destroying it would allow indoctrination to proceed.  So only Destroyers would be indoctrinated!!  What a hilarious reveal that would be ahhahahahahaaa

[Jadebaby]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

demersel wrote...

@ Jade. Let's make a little experiment.
Post here the text of Refuse speech. Just the text, not the link to a video.

"No, I can't make that choice, I wont. I fight for freedom, mine and everyone's. I fight for the right to choose our own fate. and *IF* I die, I'll die knowing that I did everything I could to stop you, and I'll die free."

Shepard isn't giving up because they can now die free, what a ****ing cop-out that is.

Shepard is saying that they aren't going to sacrifice every single synthetic in the galaxy to defeat the Reapers because they fight for EVERYBODYS freedom. Not just those that are convenient to reach her goal.

And war is about sacrifice, you can't save everyone. Doesn't matter that it's Geth, could be any group.

Besides, the games files are clear that everyone dies in Refuse. This can only be found by looking in the files, so why bother setting it if they didn't die?

Just the Geth, or everyone (including the Geth)?

But it's not just the Geth, it's ALLL Synthetics...

byne wrote...
Last I checked, Casey Hudson described ME3's theme as victory through sacrifice.

Last time I checked, ME themes went out the window with the ending (literal)

[byne]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

byne wrote...
Last I checked, Casey Hudson described ME3's theme as victory through sacrifice.

Last time I checked, ME themes went out the window with the ending (literal)

True enough.

But it's not just the Geth, it's ALLL Synthetics...

So, the geth + EDI?

Modifié par byne, 25 novembre 2012 - 02:48 .

[BleedingUranium]

A reminder of what Shepard was willing to do to stop them, the speech and the rest.

[masster blaster]

byne wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

byne wrote...
Last I checked, Casey Hudson described ME3's theme as victory through sacrifice.

Last time I checked, ME themes went out the window with the ending (literal)

True enough.

But it's not just the Geth, it's ALLL Synthetics...

So, the geth + EDI+ Shepard.

fixed

[DoomsdayDevice]

Davik Kang wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
Yeah, if I'm right about the EDI analogy, then the destroy option was a defense mechanism triggered by Shepard's brain. It symbolizes that Shepard struggles, and reacts violently to the indoctrination attempt.

That's interesting cos it actually works with TTG's idea of the Destroy mechanism being a defense mechanism stopping the Crucible from activating.  This could be what's frustrating the Reapers' efforts to indoctrinate.

However, if that's the case, then Destroying it would allow indoctrination to proceed.  So only Destroyers would be indoctrinated!!  What a hilarious reveal that would be ahhahahahahaaa

Well, yeah, haha. If the EDI analogy is correct, then you're done for in control and synthesis, but in destroy you end up only partly indoctrinated because you resisted.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 25 novembre 2012 - 03:08 .

[byne]

masster blaster wrote...

byne wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

byne wrote...
Last I checked, Casey Hudson described ME3's theme as victory through sacrifice.

Last time I checked, ME themes went out the window with the ending (literal)

True enough.

But it's not just the Geth, it's ALLL Synthetics...

So, the geth + EDI+ Shepard.

fixed

No. My first version was correct. Shepard is not a synthetic.

[Eryri]

demersel wrote...

Doesn't killing all reapers feel like a middle finger to them? 

You could destroy us, but...
Whatever - I'll just destroy you and we will see what happens!

The equvalent of Destroy as a middle finger would be shooting Anderson yourself one more time, right after Illusive man makes you to shoot him. 

illusive man - look at what they can do! Look at the power they wield! *makes you shoot Anderson"
shepard - Big deal! I can do that too! "shoots Anderson"

You've made very good points regarding the relative merits of the 2 options. I agree, it makes more sense for Destroy to be the "true" way out of indoctrination as otherwise there was no way to win in the original, pre-EC game.

But I do understand why people feel queasy about Destroy, and sacrificing our allies that we've come to know and care about, even if I can see that Destroy is rationally the best option.

Truth be told, if I was ever in that sitation myself, I'd probably just dither with indecision until the crucible blew up around me. It's probably best that I'm highly unlikely to ever be in a position to decide the fate of an entire galaxy. 

[masster blaster]

byne wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

byne wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

byne wrote...
Last I checked, Casey Hudson described ME3's theme as victory through sacrifice.

Last time I checked, ME themes went out the window with the ending (literal)

True enough.

But it's not just the Geth, it's ALLL Synthetics...

So, the geth + EDI+ Shepard.

fixed

No. My first version was correct. Shepard is not a synthetic.

but the Catalyst says

Catalyst: Even you are partly synthetic.

meaning you will die to.

Modifié par masster blaster, 25 novembre 2012 - 02:53 .

[byne]

masster blaster wrote...

byne wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

byne wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

byne wrote...
Last I checked, Casey Hudson described ME3's theme as victory through sacrifice.

Last time I checked, ME themes went out the window with the ending (literal)

True enough.

But it's not just the Geth, it's ALLL Synthetics...

So, the geth + EDI+ Shepard.

fixed

No. My first version was correct. Shepard is not a synthetic.

but the Catalyst says

Catalyst: Even you are partly synthetic meaning you will die to.

And even in the literal endings he's full of ****.

[demersel]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
Yeah, if I'm right about the EDI analogy, then the destroy option was a defense mechanism triggered by Shepard's brain. It symbolizes that Shepard struggles, and reacts violently to the indoctrination attempt.

That's interesting cos it actually works with TTG's idea of the Destroy mechanism being a defense mechanism stopping the Crucible from activating.  This could be what's frustrating the Reapers' efforts to indoctrinate.

However, if that's the case, then Destroying it would allow indoctrination to proceed.  So only Destroyers would be indoctrinated!!  What a hilarious reveal that would be ahhahahahahaaa

Well, yeah, haha. If I'm right about the From Ashes Datapads, then you're done for in control and synthesis, but in destroy you end up only partly indoctrinated because you resisted.

The thing you destroy in the destroy ending might really be exaclty the thing that is stopping the reapers from indoctrinating you. Yes. It produces a violent outburst. You wake up for a second. And then you get indoctrinated. ))) so basicly you get indoctrinated in all three endings. But in destroy you at least know that you got indoctrinated. Fine by me. 

[BleedingUranium]

byne wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

byne wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

byne wrote...
Last I checked, Casey Hudson described ME3's theme as victory through sacrifice.

Last time I checked, ME themes went out the window with the ending (literal)

True enough.

But it's not just the Geth, it's ALLL Synthetics...

So, the geth + EDI+ Shepard.

fixed

No. My first version was correct. Shepard is not a synthetic.

Makes you wonder what Destroy targets. As Shepard's brain is fully organic, does it only synthetic minds? That could be bad, as Reapers have organic minds...

[masster blaster]

byne wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

byne wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

byne wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

byne wrote...
Last I checked, Casey Hudson described ME3's theme as victory through sacrifice.

Last time I checked, ME themes went out the window with the ending (literal)

True enough.

But it's not just the Geth, it's ALLL Synthetics...

So, the geth + EDI+ Shepard.

fixed

No. My first version was correct. Shepard is not a synthetic.

but the Catalyst says

Catalyst: Even you are partly synthetic meaning you will die to.

And even in the literal endings he's full of ****.

Yes he is. That's my point Jade by chooseing refuse you believe what the catalyst says is true, but Shepard living proves that the brat was wrong.

[demersel]

byne wrote...

And even in the literal endings he's full of ****.

Soo... if he's full of ****, why do you belive him about destroy killing not only reapers?  In fact why would destroy even be destroy for real? But if endings are literal - it turnes out that it is really destroy for real. 

[BleedingUranium]

demersel wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
Yeah, if I'm right about the EDI analogy, then the destroy option was a defense mechanism triggered by Shepard's brain. It symbolizes that Shepard struggles, and reacts violently to the indoctrination attempt.

That's interesting cos it actually works with TTG's idea of the Destroy mechanism being a defense mechanism stopping the Crucible from activating.  This could be what's frustrating the Reapers' efforts to indoctrinate.

However, if that's the case, then Destroying it would allow indoctrination to proceed.  So only Destroyers would be indoctrinated!!  What a hilarious reveal that would be ahhahahahahaaa

Well, yeah, haha. If I'm right about the From Ashes Datapads, then you're done for in control and synthesis, but in destroy you end up only partly indoctrinated because you resisted.

The thing you destroy in the destroy ending might really be exaclty the thing that is stopping the reapers from indoctrinating you. Yes. It produces a violent outburst. You wake up for a second. And then you get indoctrinated. ))) so basicly you get indoctrinated in all three endings. But in destroy you at least know that you got indoctrinated. Fine by me. 

Wat.

[demersel]

masster blaster wrote...

Yes he is. That's my point Jade by chooseing refuse you believe what the catalyst says is true, but Shepard living proves that the brat was wrong.

this.

[MegumiAzusa]

BleedingUranium wrote...

byne wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

byne wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

byne wrote...
Last I checked, Casey Hudson described ME3's theme as victory through sacrifice.

Last time I checked, ME themes went out the window with the ending (literal)

True enough.

But it's not just the Geth, it's ALLL Synthetics...

So, the geth + EDI+ Shepard.

fixed

No. My first version was correct. Shepard is not a synthetic.

Makes you wonder what Destroy targets. As Shepard's brain is fully organic, does it only synthetic minds? That could be bad, as Reapers have organic minds...

They fixed exactly that question in the EC.