80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Eryri]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Makes you wonder what Destroy targets. As Shepard's brain is fully organic, does it only synthetic minds? That could be bad, as Reapers have organic minds...

Same thought had occured to me. It would be something of a twist if the Reapers' organic goo reboots them following destroy while the alliance is still crippled by losing the geth and having their electronics fried.

[BansheeOwnage]

Eryri wrote...

 Woo-hoo! Two of my quotes were worthy of the wall of awesome! 

Cheers Banshee!

[demersel]

By the way. The Guardian says TECHNOLOGY YOU RELY ON WILL BE AFFECTED. Not all synthetics will be affected. Technology includes shepards implants, citadel life support systems, ships life supports systems etc. Yet the fleet is fine in destroy.

Modifié par demersel, 25 novembre 2012 - 03:01 .

[BansheeOwnage]

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Eryri wrote...

 Woo-hoo! Two of my quotes were worthy of the wall of awesome! 

Cheers Banshee!

More like wall of entitlement, like the post that accuses everyone who doesn't pick destroy of being indoctrinated. Nice ego pushing going on again.

You realize it was Banshee's personal collection of quotes he liked, and he only posted it because others asked him to, right?

You dont have to be negative about every bloody thing, Megumi.

Thank you Byne. In my own defense, that's part of the reason I put who wrote it. Disagree with whoever wrote it - not me or the wall.

[masster blaster]

Wrex - 1000+ year old super badass krogan: Needs Shepard's help

Rachni Queen - Giant freakin bug that can produce thousands of mindless workers: Needs Shepard's help

Quarian Migrant Fleet - 50,000 ships, housing 17 million quarians: Needs Shepard's help

Geth
Consensus - countless millions of geth, including extremely durable
combat platforms and tons of ships: Needs Shepard's help

Turian Hierarchy - Strongest military in the galaxy: Needs Shepard's help

Catalyst - LEADER OF THE FREAKIN REAPERS - Needs Shepard's help

8 year old boy - 8 year old boy: Doesn’t need Shepard's help

- Byne

THIS!

Modifié par masster blaster, 25 novembre 2012 - 03:01 .

[BansheeOwnage]

demersel wrote...

By the way. The Guardian says ALL TECHNOLOGY YOU USE WILL BE AFFECTED. Not all synthetics will be affected. Technology includes shepards implants, citadel life support systems, ships life supports systems etc. Yet the fleet is fine in destroy.

He doesn't say "all" but he does mention most of the things above, including ships.

[byne]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Makes you wonder what Destroy targets. As Shepard's brain is fully organic, does it only synthetic minds? That could be bad, as Reapers have organic minds...

Project Crucible had one last resort failsafe: a high-powered emp that could wipe out all Reaper code in the galaxy. Now that the Reapers are here we have a chance to take it all out and once and put this whole harvest out of commission.

[demersel]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

demersel wrote...

By the way. The Guardian says TECHNOLOGY YOU RELY ON WILL BE AFFECTED. Not all synthetics will be affected. Technology includes shepards implants, citadel life support systems, ships life supports systems etc. Yet the fleet is fine in destroy.

He doesn't say "all" but he does mention most of the things above, including ships.

I edited to include the exact quote. 

[BansheeOwnage]

demersel wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Yes he is. That's my point Jade by chooseing refuse you believe what the catalyst says is true, but Shepard living proves that the brat was wrong.

this.

No, that's not what it says. I mean, Shepard doesn't know it's a hallucination either. Why would Shep think he was wrong. That's also looking at it from a Doylist POV instead of a Watsonist POV.

Hell, in refuse, Shepard says "I don't believe you."

[DoomsdayDevice]

demersel wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
Yeah, if I'm right about the EDI analogy, then the destroy option was a defense mechanism triggered by Shepard's brain. It symbolizes that Shepard struggles, and reacts violently to the indoctrination attempt.

That's interesting cos it actually works with TTG's idea of the Destroy mechanism being a defense mechanism stopping the Crucible from activating.  This could be what's frustrating the Reapers' efforts to indoctrinate.

However, if that's the case, then Destroying it would allow indoctrination to proceed.  So only Destroyers would be indoctrinated!!  What a hilarious reveal that would be ahhahahahahaaa

Well, yeah, haha. If the EDI analogy is correct, then you're done for in control and synthesis, but in destroy you end up only partly indoctrinated because you resisted.

The thing you destroy in the destroy ending might really be exaclty the thing that is stopping the reapers from indoctrinating you. Yes. It produces a violent outburst. You wake up for a second. And then you get indoctrinated. ))) so basicly you get indoctrinated in all three endings. But in destroy you at least know that you got indoctrinated. Fine by me. 

We may get indoctrinated, but we may not know that we do. This datapad stuff is all meta information, if legit.

EDIT: not the From Ashes datapads, I mean the EDI analogy. Edited that.

Forgive me, it's 4 AM here.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 25 novembre 2012 - 03:10 .

[masster blaster]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

demersel wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Yes he is. That's my point Jade by chooseing refuse you believe what the catalyst says is true, but Shepard living proves that the brat was wrong.

this.

No, that's not what it says. I mean, Shepard doesn't know it's a hallucination either. Why would Shep think he was wrong. That's also looking at it from a Doylist POV instead of a Watsonist POV.

Hell, in refuse, Shepard says "I don't believe you."

no he/she does not.

I just watch the end for refuse, and Shepard does not say I don't trust you at all.

Modifié par masster blaster, 25 novembre 2012 - 03:05 .

[Eryri]

byne wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Makes you wonder what Destroy targets. As Shepard's brain is fully organic, does it only synthetic minds? That could be bad, as Reapers have organic minds...

Project Crucible had one last resort failsafe: a high-powered emp that could wipe out all Reaper code in the galaxy. Now that the Reapers are here we have a chance to take it all out and once and put this whole harvest out of commission.

That was hilarious!

[BleedingUranium]

byne wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Makes you wonder what Destroy targets. As Shepard's brain is fully organic, does it only synthetic minds? That could be bad, as Reapers have organic minds...

Project Crucible had one last resort failsafe: a high-powered emp that could wipe out all Reaper code in the galaxy. Now that the Reapers are here we have a chance to take it all out and once and put this whole harvest out of commission.

And it didn't kill the Meta

[Home run MF]

About the refuse ending has anyone heard this line during a playthrough? Because there are a few lines in the TLK file that, as far as I know, don't trigger right now.

"I'm not bound by anything. Not by you or these choices!" - Shepard

[demersel]

Eryri wrote...

byne wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Makes you wonder what Destroy targets. As Shepard's brain is fully organic, does it only synthetic minds? That could be bad, as Reapers have organic minds...

Project Crucible had one last resort failsafe: a high-powered emp that could wipe out all Reaper code in the galaxy. Now that the Reapers are here we have a chance to take it all out and once and put this whole harvest out of commission.

That was hilarious!

"Being wrong isn't a democracy!" <3

Modifié par demersel, 25 novembre 2012 - 03:11 .

[BleedingUranium]

demersel wrote...

Eryri wrote...

byne wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Makes you wonder what Destroy targets. As Shepard's brain is fully organic, does it only synthetic minds? That could be bad, as Reapers have organic minds...

Project Crucible had one last resort failsafe: a high-powered emp that could wipe out all Reaper code in the galaxy. Now that the Reapers are here we have a chance to take it all out and once and put this whole harvest out of commission.

That was hilarious!

"Being wring isn't a democracy!" <3

Agent Washington is awesome

[masster blaster]

That’s right, you don’t. Granted, a lot of IT supporters don't understand it either (even Byne). Specifically, what IT is about. Or rather, what it should be about. Literalists and theorists alike pay attention. Let me try to break it down for you.

WHAT INDOCTRINATION THEORY IS ABOUT

IT at its core isn't about the dream sequence, or hallucinations, though we do deduce them. IT isn't about trivializing the ending or retconning it, quite the opposite in fact. IT isn't about hoping Bioware will come up with a better ending down the line, since we hope not for new endings but new epilogue material. And IT isn’t about disrespecting Bioware or its writing talents. In fact we’re celebrating it.

IT accepts the ending we saw as the ending we have. IT accepts that the ending we saw is the culmination of the series. IT accepts that any DLC related to the ending or post-ending will not change the fundamentals of ME3’s ending.

What IT is actually about is this: The primary plot of ME3 is not just saving the galaxy from cuttlefish. It’s the struggle for the soul of the galaxy against hostile powers that would devour it. Shepard’s journey is central to that, and decides the outcome. You must overcome deception, manipulation and temptation to achieve victory. If you fail, if you let fear or doubt compromise your judgment, you will become a tyrant just like the monsters you fought.

The entire series has revolved around ethics, their diversity and the conflicts that arise from them. It establishes the setting, defines characters, and is the focus of virtually every important mission in all three games. The reapers and their indoctrinate agents are antagonists because above all else they are unethical, and they drag all other life around them down to their level, where terror and suffering are deemed acceptable and where compassion cannot be found.

According to IT, if you choose either Control or Synthesis, you were brought down to that level. To some degree you will have accepted the reapers’ justifications for the unjustifiable. You will have believed the unbelievable. You will have trusted the untrustworthy. You will have betrayed everything and everyone you fought for throughout three games, and you will have done so for dubious promises or empty self-satisfaction. You will have robbed the galaxy of the chance to build a future for itself because you accepted a future that your enemy presented to you.

But if you choose Destroy or Reject*, you will have beaten their efforts to turn you. You will have accepted the terrible price, real or imagined, but saved the integrity of galactic life. You will not have compromised with the planet raping cuttlefish who spread terror and madness wherever they tread. You will have had the good grace to know right from wrong, no matter what code of ethics you stand by.

Basically, you must choose Right against immense encouragement to choose Wrong. That’s the fundamental idea of Indoctrination Theory.

It’s not that the ending is a dream or there’s a reset button. We think there was a dream, but that doesn’t mean what we saw didn’t matter, and it’s not a necessary component to the core idea. Hell, you can imagine the end sequence as actually happening completely and this idea can still be valid. And the EC did nothing to dispel it as invalid. But of course the theory is not just this idea but involves larger case surrounding it…

*We can’t agree on whether or not Reject is in fact a victory condition. There is simply too little information regarding it to agree one way or the other.

THE CASE FOR INDOCTRINATION THEORY

The Catalyst appears as the Earthchild. Thus we can conclude that the Catalyst was actively directing Shepard’s perceptions. Since it openly associates with the reapers, encourages choices reminiscent of the goals of indoctrinated villains, and provides no proof but its word that it is not the enemy still, we conclude that the Catalyst is trying to manipulate us for its own ends and not Shepard’s benefit. From here we can begin to build a case for an indoctrination attempt occurring in the final minutes of ME3.

We see Shepard waking up in rubble that is one iota shy of being undoubtedly London rubble, thus we conclude dreams and hallucinations. Granted we can’t determine exactly what the balance is between reality and fantasy between different shots let alone different scenes. But dreams have already been used in the series before both as plot vehicles and as established vectors of indoctrination. From this we can establish method.

We find that Shepard has canonically been in the vicinity of indoctrinating presences for significant periods of time (not even getting into optional opportunities such as Arrival), and that Shepard does exhibit established symptoms of undergoing an indoctrination process. Coupled with the absence of reason to believe otherwise we conclude that Shepard must have been touched by indoctrination to some degree by the time of Priority: Earth. We can establish opportunity.

We see the reapers behaving completely contrary to what should be expected, including allowing the relay network to remain functional and Harbinger implausibly failing to kill Shepard. From that we conclude that the reapers were planning to indoctrinate Shepard for their ends. Considering Shepard’s achievements and significance, and therefore Shepards possible usefulness to the reapers as an indoctrinated agent, we can establish motive.

Method. Opportunity. Motive. We have a case for Shepard undergoing indoctrination. It’s a solid case. It’s a mother beautiful case. It’s coherent and consistent with the rest of the series. It’s based on facts. It answers so many questions and fixes so many problems. There are literally hundreds of pages of circumstantial evidence in support of it…

SO WHAT’S THE PROBLEM

The case is plausible. But it’s a Watsonian case, not a Doylist one. This is where I think most of the problems and schisms in the fanbase regarding IT come from.

Many theorists leap to the conclusion that the Indoctrination Theory must have been consciously implemented by Bioware. But that’s a separate theory entirely. It’s its own case that must be evaluated as such. And it’s a much trickier case. Whilst Bioware certainly had the method and opportunity to implement IT, the arguments for their motive to do so still are still shaky, many of the implications if the case turns out correct can be construed as unpleasant, and there is simply not a strong body of evidence, circumstantial or direct to support it. There is the curious presentation Earthchild’s introduction, and there is Shepard spontaneously developing TIM eyes in Control and Synthesis, there’s even Coats’ odd cameo in the Citadel corpse pile, but there is honestly very little else that approaches anywhere near solid that Bioware intended IT.

You can’t use the majority of the body of circumstantial evidence for Indoctrination Theory to support “Bioware Intends IT Theory” because that’s trying to apply Watsonian evidence to a Doylist argument. Many literalists here have done the exact opposite. They bring up evidence that could be construed as “bad writing”, whether it be inept, lazy, ham-fisted, etc. to discredit IT. But that’s trying to counter a Watsonian theory with Doylist arguments.

Either way, it’s essentially comparing apples to oranges. You can argue the merits of Indoctrination Theory with Watsonian evidence. You can argue the idea that Bioware intends IT with Doylist evidence. But please for the love of all that’s good on this planet stop being dolts and mixing them up. They’re separate theories that need to be evaluated and dealt with separately. And stop falling for your confirmation biases. It’s lazy and stupid. It’s bad speculation.

I like Indoctrination Theory. It’s my head canon. But I’m currently completely agnostic about believing whether Bioware will actually embrace it as canon or not. I usually lean against the idea. What I know is that IT is for the moment only a theory. It’s a plausible, valid theory, but it’s not a proven fact. And the only trier of fact who can confirm or debunk it as fact is Bioware.

But then again it shouldn’t be disparaged because it’s only “wishful thinking”. Indoctrination Theory is about choosing Right from Wrong. Its purpose is to provide closure. It provides coherency and depth to what is otherwise a shallow and broken conclusion. If you disagree with these statements, either provide good alternatives or get the hell out.

TLDR: F*ck it, just read the damn wall.
- Simon_Says

[401 Kill]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

demersel wrote...

By the way. The Guardian says ALL TECHNOLOGY YOU USE WILL BE AFFECTED. Not all synthetics will be affected. Technology includes shepards implants, citadel life support systems, ships life supports systems etc. Yet the fleet is fine in destroy.

He doesn't say "all" but he does mention most of the things above, including ships.

Doesnt the child say something like "No more will be lost than what has already been."

Well, I have not lost the Geth or EDI at this point....

[401 Kill]

This thread is moving extremely fast! It will be a shame if it gets shut down at this point due to length...

[masster blaster]

Here are some particularly notable quotes I found in Arrival and my analysis of them. Considering Mac Walters wrote Arrival along with the beginning and ending of ME3, I think the connections are especially worth discussion.

"Scientist: I woke up this morning in a cold sweat. The nightmare was back, the one with the enormous starship crawling through the Citadel and all my friends turning to dust. Even now I can see it in my mind. Why won't this stop?"

I'm sure I don't need to tell you this connects to Shepard's recurring dreams in ME3. Both dreams imply helplessness on the part of the dreamer by showing them unable to help someone they care about. The scientist also says "the nightmare was back," meaning that the dreams are infrequent, like Shepard's

"Guard: When it's silent, when there's no one else around, I can hear it. Whispers in the back of my mind, and I can't tell what they're saying."

He can hear the Reapers communicating with him, but he can't make out what they are actually saying. This reminded me of that Reaper sound effect that sounds similar to "serve us" or "save us."

"Guard: Kenson's acting strang lately. Like she doesn't care about the Project anymore. And I know I'm not the only one having those dreams. 'The Reapers are coming,' she says. But I'm not sure if I'm hearing far or hope in her voice."

This quote shows that the dreams are not a unique occurrence.

"Dr. Kenson: The longer we're here, the more I'm convinced that the Project must be stopped. We simply don't know enough about what the Reapers want. It's foolish to assume that the Reapers mean doom for the galaxy. Legends say they've come through before, and yet life continues, doesn't it?"

So the most clearly indoctrinated person on the Project staff started to sympathize with the Reapers and wanted to learn more about their motives.

"Dr. Kenson: I will die never having seen the Reapers' blessings. And you will just die."

This quote struck me as odd. It may just be structured awkwardly, but it could also imply that Shepard will see the "Reapers' blessings" before dying.

"Harbinger: This seems a victory to you. A star system sacrificed. But even now, your greatest civilizations are doomed to fall. Your leaders will beg to serve us."

The last sentence implies that the Reapers will let the leaders live long enough to have an opportunity to beg. This shows from Harbinger's own mouth(?) that the Reapers DO intend to indoctrinate galactic leaders instead of just kililng them. Note that Shepard could easily be considered one of those leaders in ME3.

"Harbinger: Know this as you die in vain: Your time will come. Your species will fall."

Harbinger's language takes a strange turn here. The entire game he says that the Reapers will bring human species "ascension" or "evolution" or "salvation through destruction" or they will be "brought into harmony with our own." All of a sudden, Harbinger says that our species will fall, the exact opposite of ascension. I haven't made any conclusions yet from this change in language, but I think it deserves note.

Because English doesn't have plural second-person pronouns (grrrrrr...), it's also unclear whether he means "Your (species') time will come," or "Your (Shepard's) time will come.
- Hrothdane

Modifié par masster blaster, 25 novembre 2012 - 03:17 .

[Home run MF]

@Masster   Shepard does say he/she doesn't believe the starbrat  and he gets rather angry.

[Arashi08]

I haven't played the ending in some time so plz remind me, does the catalyst mention the Geth at all in the EC version of destroy? I think it mentions technology being affected but does it specifically mention the Geth being destroyed anymore? it prolly does and I just can't remember lol.

[masster blaster]

Home run MF wrote...

@Masster   Shepard does say he/she doesn't believe the starbrat  and he gets rather angry.

yet Shepard goes back into okay there has to be another way, after Destroy was shot down for Shepard in his own mind. It's only Destroy Shepard's like " I don't want to pick Destroy, but Control, and Synthesis..... You see in the end Destroy is Shepard's we will fight you regardless.

[401 Kill]

Arashi08 wrote...

I haven't played the ending in some time so plz remind me, does the catalyst mention the Geth at all in the EC version of destroy? I think it mentions technology being affected but does it specifically mention the Geth being destroyed anymore? it prolly does and I just can't remember lol.

"Be warned, the Crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted." 

I think that's about as much as he says affecting synthetics (implying EDI and the Geth will be targeted).


The year was 2048...

Modifié par 401 Kill, 25 novembre 2012 - 03:27 .

[masster blaster]

401 Kill wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

I haven't played the ending in some time so plz remind me, does the catalyst mention the Geth at all in the EC version of destroy? I think it mentions technology being affected but does it specifically mention the Geth being destroyed anymore? it prolly does and I just can't remember lol.

"Be warned, the Crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted." 

I think that's about as much as he says affecting synthetics (implying EDI and the Geth will be targeted).


The year was 2048...

Also Shepard.