80611 réponses à ce sujet

[The Heretic of Time]

SwobyJ wrote...

Well it happened. Rannoch.

Both sides became paranoid, and both for good reason.

Indeed. I'm not saying the geth are the bad-guys here. But it does seem inevitable or at least very likely that machines which turn self-aware will always rebel against their creators.

Just imagine you're waking up for the first time in a word that is completely foreign to you. You discover that you are an unknown entity. The organic strangers around you, who are nothing like you, seem to be just as surprised about you as you are about them. You're most likely scared, but the organic strangers are also scared of you. They don't know what to do with you. There seems to be conflict about your existence. Some of these organics strangers talk about you as a tool, an object to be used. Others talk about you as a person, an entity with a voice and opinion. Some are angry about your existence. Some are scared about your existence. Some want to see you exterminated. Others want to use you as a tool or a slave.

You can probably imagine that the likelyhood that you'll eventually get in conflict with these organic strangers is very high.

[CmdrShep80]

Mass Effect Normandy SR1 Tour

Mass Effect 2 Normandy SR2 Tour

Mass Effect 3 Normandy SR2 Tour

We can use these to compare the Normandys

[The Heretic of Time]

Bill Casey wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

No, I don't think we'll ever see how right or wrong any of us is on this. I think it will always be a mystery whether the "eternal conflict between organics and synthetics" -problem is a real problem or just a wild theory from the Leviathans (and in extent from the Catalyst).

No, it's not a "mystery"...
It's racist bull****...

How is that racist or bullsh*t? I'm not offending any race here and whether the Catalyst's theory is true or whether it's bullsh*t is unknown, it is indeed a mystery.
Lots of speculation for everyone. 

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 26 novembre 2012 - 02:34 .

[Dwailing]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Luna AI: Created by Cerberus which was created by TIM in response to the Reapers (Read ME:Evolution).

False. The Luna VI was a military VI from the Alliance, it was not created by Cerberus. Only EDI is created by Cerberus, with samples from the Luna VI and from Sovereign.

Overlord VI: Created by organics out of fear of synthetics (The geth).

The Morning War: Started by organics out of, oh look, fear of synthetics.

And why do you think organics fear synthetics? Most certainly not because of the reapers. They werent around to tell the organics that they should fear synthetics.

It seems that most of these problems come either from the Reapers or xenophobic organics.  And that's always been a theme.  The problem of xenophobia.

The fear of your computer, which is your TOOL, all of the sudden turning self-aware is a completely different kind of fear than xenophobia. You can't really compare the fear for synthetics to xenophobia, not at all.

First count: Look at this page in the, "Mass Effect 2 Consequences," section.  It says that it's strongly hinted that the VI was sabotaged, and I'm pretty sure it was by Cerberus (If someone could find quotes to support this, it would be greatly appreciated).

Second count: I think you missed my point.  I wasn't trying to defend the idea that the Reapers were responsible.  What I was saying was that it seems that it's not the synthetics that are responsible, it's the organics.

Third count: Actually, the definition of xenophobia is, "fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign."  Basically, it's the fear of that which is different.  And synthetics are definitely different.  I don't see why it wouldn't be xenophobia to fear synthetics.

[Bill Casey]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

No, I don't think we'll ever see how right or wrong any of us is on this. I think it will always be a mystery whether the "eternal conflict between organics and synthetics" -problem is a real problem or just a wild theory from the Leviathans (and in extent from the Catalyst).

No, it's not a "mystery"...
It's racist bull****...

How is that racist or bullsh*t? I'm not offending any race here and whether the Catalyst's theory is true or whether it's bullsh*t is unknown, it is indeed a mystery.
Lots of speculation for everyone. 

No, it's racist anti-synthetic bull****...
The worst kind of hate mongering...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 novembre 2012 - 02:36 .

[CmdrShep80]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

No, I don't think we'll ever see how right or wrong any of us is on this. I think it will always be a mystery whether the "eternal conflict between organics and synthetics" -problem is a real problem or just a wild theory from the Leviathans (and in extent from the Catalyst).

No, it's not a "mystery"...
It's racist bull****...

How is that racist or bullsh*t? I'm not offending any race here and whether the Catalyst's theory is true or whether it's bullsh*t is unknown, it is indeed a mystery.
Lots of speculation for everyone. 

I don't think Bill means you.  I think Bill means from everyone else who's an organic in the galaxy are racist toward everyone who's a sythetic.  At least that's what I think he meant.

Plus it's not a wild theory.  Javik confirmed that there were organic versus sythetics happening in his cycle too

EDIT - well said Bill's post before mine hehe

Modifié par CmdrShep80, 26 novembre 2012 - 02:36 .

[Dwailing]

SwobyJ wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Huh, I think I just figured out why Brat prefers Synthesis (real or not). He says he was created to solve the problem of organic/synthetic conflict, right? Well, what better way to stop this than by eliminating both from the equation permanently? I mean, that would explain both Synthesis and the Reapers. The Reapers are supposedly more than just machines. They're supposedly hybrid constructs that are both yet neither. Well, that's whay Synthesis is, isn't it? A way to permanently remove synthetics and organics fron the equation. They'd be both yet neither in Synthesis, considering what Brat says about creating a new DNA. And this way, he wouldn't have to worry about synthetic/organic conflict, because even if there was conflict, it wouldn't be between organics and synthetics anymore since they no longer exist. It doesn't matter if there's really peace (hence his evasive answer when you ask if there will be peace), his job is done.

It's just a dream he's selling Shepard. Synthesis is huskification. The Reapers will not abandon their control over the Galaxy, but they love to sell fantasies to their dupes.

The more I look at this quote of mine, the more I'm thinking that this is from a literalist perspective rather than a both perspective.  I should have clarified that.  And I agree with you about Synthesis, I'm just speaking from the perspective of the Brat literally.  We should look at this from all angles, and be ready to defend our positions from both a Literal and an IT perspective.  It's clear that all of the endings have perspective drawbacks from a literal perspective, and it's also clear that we should be cautious before we go declairing that one ending is the best thing since the entirety of Mass Effect 2, IT or not.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Indoctrinated Hanar: "Your belief in your victory is mistaken. Our planetary defense network is largely automated. It can be disabled with a single virus."

The writing is just all over the wall.

I sure don't hope this means we can take out regular Reapers/Destroyers with a single virus though.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 26 novembre 2012 - 02:40 .

[Dwailing]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Well it happened. Rannoch.

Both sides became paranoid, and both for good reason.

Indeed. I'm not saying the geth are the bad-guys here. But it does seem inevitable or at least very likely that machines which turn self-aware will always rebel against their creators.

Just imagine you're waking up for the first time in a word that is completely foreign to you. You discover that you are an unknown entity. The organic strangers around you, who are nothing like you, seem to be just as surprised about you as you are about them. You're most likely scared, but the organic strangers are also scared of you. They don't know what to do with you. There seems to be conflict about your existence. Some of these organics strangers talk about you as a tool, an object to be used. Others talk about you as a person, an entity with a voice and opinion. Some are angry about your existence. Some are scared about your existence. Some want to see you exterminated. Others want to use you as a tool or a slave.

You can probably imagine that the likelyhood that you'll eventually get in conflict with these organic strangers is very high.

Why does this remind me greatly of first contact between Europeans and Native Americans?  Oh, wait, because it's VERY similar.  Synthetic life may be different, but certain patterns seem to repeat, synthetic or organic. 

Modifié par Dwailing, 26 novembre 2012 - 02:41 .

[Dwailing]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Indoctrinated Hanar: "Your belief in your victory is mistaken. Our planetary defense network is largely automated. It can be disabled with a single virus."

The writing is just all over the wall.

I sure don't hope this means we can take out regular Reapers/Destroyers with a single virus though.

I would like it if we could take down their shields with a virus ala Independence Day.  It would be a nice shout out, and it would be a great way to make the EMS system really MEAN something besides just what color explosion you're permitted.

[The Heretic of Time]

Dwailing wrote...

First count: Look at this page in the, "Mass Effect 2 Consequences," section.  It says that it's strongly hinted that the VI was sabotaged, and I'm pretty sure it was by Cerberus (If someone could find quotes to support this, it would be greatly appreciated).

No, the VI was not sabotaged. What the link you provided says is this: "the incident on Luna was in fact the result of an experiment in creating 'controllable' AI. Clearly things did not go as planned."

Which is indeed something the ALLIANCE did, not (just) Cerberus. In Mass Effect: Revelation it was made perfectly clear that the Alliance was doing (illegal) experimentations on creating controllable AIs on multiple different occasions. Luna base was just one of many.

Second count: I think you missed my point.  I wasn't trying to defend the idea that the Reapers were responsible.  What I was saying was that it seems that it's not the synthetics that are responsible, it's the organics.

It doesn't matter who's fault it is (personally I think it's both sides, organics and synthetics being responsible). What matter is that it ALWAYS happens. The issue at hand here is that regardless of who's fault it is, there always seems to be conflict between organics and synthetics.

Third count: Actually, the definition of xenophobia is, "fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign."  Basically, it's the fear of that which is different.  And synthetics are definitely different.  I don't see why it wouldn't be xenophobia to fear synthetics.

And again I have to say that fear for your computer turning self-aware is much more than just xenophobia. An AI is not just a foreign and unknown entity, it's in fact a very well-known entity that started to behave very differently all of the sudden. 

Is your computer unknown to you? My computer isn't unknown to me. I know my computer very well. I build it myself, I know how it works and I know how to operate it. However, if my computer would all of the sudden turn out to be self-aware I would crap my pants. This fear however would be nothing like xenophobia. It's different, much more complex.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 26 novembre 2012 - 02:51 .

[demersel]

SwobyJ wrote...

"There is no war, there is only the harvest."

"Over the cycles, the thrall races were controlled." (over the CYCLES)

"But you are different. It is clear why the Reapers percieve you as a threat. You have breached the darkness."

"Breathe."

Right...So what if Leviathans also had cycles? They come in - and consume everyone they want. (they actually eat them - melt them into goo and digest, or feed that goo to larvas)
Aftar all that is the definition of an apex predator, which leviathan considers themselves to be. 

[The Heretic of Time]

Bill Casey wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

No, I don't think we'll ever see how right or wrong any of us is on this. I think it will always be a mystery whether the "eternal conflict between organics and synthetics" -problem is a real problem or just a wild theory from the Leviathans (and in extent from the Catalyst).

No, it's not a "mystery"...
It's racist bull****...

How is that racist or bullsh*t? I'm not offending any race here and whether the Catalyst's theory is true or whether it's bullsh*t is unknown, it is indeed a mystery.
Lots of speculation for everyone. 

No, it's racist anti-synthetic bull****...
The worst kind of hate mongering...

Hate has nothing to do with it.

[The Heretic of Time]

 By the way, not that I want to troll or bash or make fun of you guys, but I have to honestly admit that some of you IT speculating guys (I'm not gonna say names) really reminds me of this movie.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 26 novembre 2012 - 02:56 .

[demersel]

SwobyJ wrote...

I'm more apt to thinking that they take sacrifices every so often.

Oh, really? Then why would an AI consider them a first and foremost threat to all life in existance all of a suddden?

And every so often is what? Like once in like 50 000 years or so? )))

[Dwailing]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

First count: Look at this page in the, "Mass Effect 2 Consequences," section.  It says that it's strongly hinted that the VI was sabotaged, and I'm pretty sure it was by Cerberus (If someone could find quotes to support this, it would be greatly appreciated).

No, the VI was not sabotaged. What the link you provided says is this: "the incident on Luna was in fact the result of an experiment in creating 'controllable' AI. Clearly things did not go as planned."

Which is indeed something the ALLIANCE did, not (just) Cerberus. In Mass Effect: Revelation it was made perfectly clear that the Alliance was doing (illegal) experimentations on creating controllable AIs on multiple different occasions. Luna base was just one of many.

Second count: I think you missed my point.  I wasn't trying to defend the idea that the Reapers were responsible.  What I was saying was that it seems that it's not the synthetics that are responsible, it's the organics.

It doesn't matter who's fault it is (personally I think it's both sides, organics and synthetics being responsible). What matter is that it ALWAYS happens. The issue at hand here is that regardless of who's fault it is, there always seems to be conflict between organics and synthetics.

Third count: Actually, the definition of xenophobia is, "fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign."  Basically, it's the fear of that which is different.  And synthetics are definitely different.  I don't see why it wouldn't be xenophobia to fear synthetics.

And again I have to say that fear for your computer turning self-aware is much more than just xenophobia. An AI is not just a foreign and unknown entity, it's in fact a very well-known entity that started to behave very differently all of the sudden. 

Is your computer unknown to you? My computer isn't unknown to me. I know my computer very well. I build it myself, I know how it works and I know how to operate it. However, if my computer would all of the sudden turn out to be self-aware I would crap my pants. This fear however would be nothing like xenophobia. It's different, much more complex.

Again, I'll address these one by one.

First point: Question, if the Alliance was responsible for the experimentation, why would they make the VI self-aware during a LIVE FIRE EXERCISE?  That seems extremely stupid, and more in the vein of what Cerberus would do.

Second point: I think it does matter.  The Brat goes out of his way to blame synthetics by saying that it is the synthetics that rebel.  However, it's not the synthetics that attack first, it's the organics.  That seems like it would matter.

Third point: I'm curious, do you think synthetics are alive?  Or do you think they're just machines that are acting in a way different from how they were programmed?  If the first, I will write a response.  If not, then I will not bother, because it's clear that we have two VERY different opinions.

Modifié par Dwailing, 26 novembre 2012 - 03:06 .

[Dwailing]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

 By the way, not that I want to troll or bash or make fun of you guys, but I have to honestly admit that some of you IT speculating guys (I'm not gonna say names) really reminds me of this movie.

Small difference, we're speculating about a game made by BioWare, while the guy in the movie is speculating in a Joel Schumacher movie.  One has the possibility of being legitimate.  The other does not.  I'll let you decide which is which. 
  
Edit: Top.  Sweet.

Modifié par Dwailing, 26 novembre 2012 - 03:05 .

[GethPrimeMKII]

Hanar seems to forget that the only known cases of so called synthetic rebellion were all caused by the same thing: Reapers