80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Eryri]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Its Control and Synthesis.

How is it Synthesis? There are no men or machines merged in Project Overlord. No transhumanism or any of that stuff.

I have to disagree with you here Heretic.



Admittedly Dr Archer did not intend to permanently merge David with a machine, but without Shepard's intervention, that is what would have happened. "Accidental" transhumanism I suppose.

Modifié par Eryri, 26 novembre 2012 - 10:09 .

[Andromidius]

Alright, since I need to learn to be calmer and nicer I'm going to explain why I think Overlord contains elements of Control and Synthesis.

Firstly, its mostly about Control. That much is obvious, its a plan to seize control of the Geth Consensus.

However, it went further then planned when the VI and David began to merge into one gestalt entity. It turned into a computer virus and started infecting all the systems of the facility, and took direct control of all the Geth units that were being experimented on. Thus inside each Geth was a hybrid human/AI intelligence. Even Shepard is vulnerable to it, and gets 'dragged' inside a semi-artificial reality.

The kicker is if you fail the mission, and you see Overlord upload itself into the Normandy. At that stage, its clear that David's body is now completely unneeded but the virus is still active and contains the organic 'understanding' that Synthesis promotes. And David is in real danger of being lost inside the machine forever, being an inseperable part of it.

Hense, Control and Synthesis. But mostly Control, showing that its still highly dangerous when a single human mind is interfaced with a multitude of AI's and expected to maintain control over them all.

[Restrider]

My take on Overlord is that Control is obviously the main theme of the DLC. There are a few, little things that may hint at Synthesis, but I think Synthesis is more featured in ME1 and especially the end of ME2.

[MegumiAzusa]

Eryri wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Its Control and Synthesis.

How is it Synthesis? There are no men or machines merged in Project Overlord. No transhumanism or any of that stuff.

I have to disagree with you here Heretic.



Admittedly Dr Archer did not intend to permanently merge David with a machine, but without Shepard's intervention, that is what would have happened. "Accidental" transhumanism I suppose.

Ok, you see blue lighting, it's obviously only control.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Guys, I'm still catching up to the thread.

Just popping in to say this.

Swoby, that was really kind of you, really, but I'm not looking for people to 'help me out' on my thread. It's okay, I'm not even really debating with these guys, just trying to provoke some thought, it's not a problem.

If you genuinely feel like posting in there for whatever reason, cool, but I don't need (and don't mean) for this to become some kind of heated debate. I expected nothing but ridicule and so far it's not even that bad. lol

It's all good. Nobody needs to bother with the thread on my behalf.

[Bill Casey]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

If you argue that way I can also say the Normandy SR1 is an example of synthesis as it's the synthesis of Humand and Turian technology.

The Normandy SR1 is not a person who merged with a VI interface to give it genuine conciousness, creating a hybrid intelligence the likes of which Gavin had never seen, and didn't know where the man ended and the machine began...

It's also not playing god and unethical human experimentation, which are core aspects of synthesis...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 novembre 2012 - 10:15 .

[Eryri]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Ok, you see blue lighting, it's obviously only control.

Let's just compromise and say the "lighting" is turquoise. Or possibly teal. 

[The Heretic of Time]

Eryri wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Its Control and Synthesis.

How is it Synthesis? There are no men or machines merged in Project Overlord. No transhumanism or any of that stuff.

I have to disagree with you here Heretic.



Admittedly Dr Archer did not intend to permanently merge David with a machine, but without Shepard's intervention, that is what would have happened. "Accidental" transhumanism I suppose.

That image does not prove your point. It's just David hooked up to a machine (in a cruel way). David is still a seperate entity there.

What would have happened if Shepard didn't intervene is unknown and it doesn't matter. What matters is that the goal of the project and the project itself was all about controlling the geth. David was used to act as a catalyst for controlling the geth. Sounds awefully similar to the Control ending, doesn't it?

[MegumiAzusa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Guys, I'm still catching up to the thread.

Just popping in to say this.

Swoby, that was really kind of you, really, but I'm not looking for people to 'help me out' on my thread. It's okay, I'm not even really debating with these guys, just trying to provoke some thought, it's not a problem.

If you genuinely feel like posting in there for whatever reason, cool, but I don't need (and don't mean) for this to become some kind of heated debate. I expected nothing but ridicule and so far it's not even that bad. lol

It's all good. Nobody needs to bother with the thread on my behalf.

To provoke some thought you have to provide a way to reach the thoughts and conclusions you did. Just posting the conclusions doesn't do that at all.

[The Heretic of Time]

Bill Casey wrote...

The Normandy SR1 is not a person who merged with a VI interface to give it genuine conciousness, creating a hybrid intelligence the likes of which Gavin had never seen, and didn't know where the man ended and the machine began...

It's also not playing god and unethical human experimentation, which are core aspects of synthesis...

In Project Overlord, Davids conciousness got merged with a VI interface to be able to control the geth. Guess what happens in the Control ending?

In the Control ending, Shepards conciousness got merged with the Catalyst to be able to control the reapers.


So yeah, no Synthesis going on here, just Control.

[Andromidius]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...David is still a seperate entity there.

Actually, a point is made in-game that that isn't the case.  Even his own brother, the project overseer, doesn't know where the two seperate.  Its not just a physical thing - David is inside the machine mentally, and the machine is flooding his mind with more information then he can possibly process.  The VI and David are one gestalt being.

[Eryri]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

That image does not prove your point. It's just David hooked up to a machine (in a cruel way). David is still a seperate entity there.

What would have happened if Shepard didn't intervene is unknown and it doesn't matter. What matters is that the goal of the project and the project itself was all about controlling the geth. David was used to act as a catalyst for controlling the geth. Sounds awefully similar to the Control ending, doesn't it?

Indeed it does. But it also has a dash of synthesis. And we do know what happens if Shepard fails to stop David / the VI in time.



The hybrid VI continues to grow until it dominates EDI.

[Andromidius]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

So yeah, no Synthesis going on here, just Control.

So you're going to ignore the point about how Synthesis works for Synthetics then?

And how being forcibily merged with a machine is REALLY bad for your health and mental welbeing?

Okay then.

[The Heretic of Time]

Eryri wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

That image does not prove your point. It's just David hooked up to a machine (in a cruel way). David is still a seperate entity there.

What would have happened if Shepard didn't intervene is unknown and it doesn't matter. What matters is that the goal of the project and the project itself was all about controlling the geth. David was used to act as a catalyst for controlling the geth. Sounds awefully similar to the Control ending, doesn't it?

Indeed it does. But it also has a dash of synthesis. And we do know what happens if Shepard fails to stop David / the VI in time.



The hybrid VI continues to grow until it dominates EDI.

Dominating EDI is just a different word for controling EDI. Once again proving my point. Synthesis has nothing to do with this.

[MegumiAzusa]

Bill Casey wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

If you argue that way I can also say the Normandy SR1 is an example of synthesis as it's the synthesis of Humand and Turian technology.

The Normandy SR1 is not a person who merged with a VI interface to give it genuine conciousness, creating a hybrid intelligence the likes of which Gavin had never seen, and didn't know where the man ended and the machine began...

It's also not playing god and unethical human experimentation, which are core aspects of synthesis...

Synthesis is the creation of something new by combining two different things, or the artificial creation of something.
If you don't want this definition you have to redefine the word for this topic, but if you do you have to keep in mind to create a clear base, because sometimes the usual definition here doesn't entail what you just wrote.

[Eryri]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Dominating EDI is just a different word for controling EDI. Once again proving my point. Synthesis has nothing to do with this.

And what is EDI being controlled by? A hybrid of David and the VI. A synthesised being.

[The Heretic of Time]

Andromidius wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

So yeah, no Synthesis going on here, just Control.

So you're going to ignore the point about how Synthesis works for Synthetics then?

And how being forcibily merged with a machine is REALLY bad for your health and mental welbeing?

Okay then.

Yeah because none of that is related to Project Overlord. Besides, the crew looked quite healthy and happy in the Synthesis ending. Of course that doesn't matter to you, because you don't even acknowledge the EC endings as real endings. But I do.

[Andromidius]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Synthesis is the creation of something new by combining two different things, or the artificial creation of something.
If you don't want this definition you have to redefine the word for this topic, but if you do you have to keep in mind to create a clear base, because sometimes the usual definition here doesn't entail what you just wrote.

Though in Mass Effect its apperently one of the two:

1/ Organics having machines integrated into their body at the DNA level.  Against their will.

2/ Synthetics 'understanding' how Organics think.

David's experience is a cruder version of this.  He's merged with a machine, and upgrades the processing and logic powers of the VI.  Its two in one.

[The Heretic of Time]

Eryri wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Dominating EDI is just a different word for controling EDI. Once again proving my point. Synthesis has nothing to do with this.

And what is EDI being controlled by? A hybrid of David and the VI. A synthesised synthetic being.

Fixed that post for you.

And to respond to it: What is the Shepard Catalyst in the Control ending? A hybrid of Shepard and an AI. A synthetic being

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 26 novembre 2012 - 10:27 .

[Andromidius]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
Yeah because none of that is related to Project Overlord. Besides, the crew looked quite healthy and happy in the Synthesis ending. Of course that doesn't matter to you, because you don't even acknowledge the EC endings as real endings. But I do.

...okay, you're getting me angry now.

What I just said relates EXACTLY to Project Overlord.

Now I'm going to stop before I start swearing at you.

Oh, and stop telling me what I do or don't acknowledge.  Otherwise I'll start telling you what you acknowledge.  And you won't like that.

Modifié par Andromidius, 26 novembre 2012 - 10:28 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Andromidius wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...David is still a seperate entity there.

Actually, a point is made in-game that that isn't the case.  Even his own brother, the project overseer, doesn't know where the two seperate.  Its not just a physical thing - David is inside the machine mentally, and the machine is flooding his mind with more information then he can possibly process.  The VI and David are one gestalt being.

Then watch the Control ending again.
"The woman I was [...] Through her death, I was created."

[Andromidius]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...David is still a seperate entity there.

Actually, a point is made in-game that that isn't the case.  Even his own brother, the project overseer, doesn't know where the two seperate.  Its not just a physical thing - David is inside the machine mentally, and the machine is flooding his mind with more information then he can possibly process.  The VI and David are one gestalt being.

Then watch the Control ending again.
"The woman I was [...] Through her death, I was created."

Okay.  So Control contains a bit of Synthesis too.

Which strengthens the point about Overlord being mostly about control, and a bit about Synthesis.  Thank you.

[Bill Casey]

Synthesis as in the ending where Shepard performs a last minute experiment on the galaxy to rewrite their dna and hook them up to giant brainwashing machines made of dead people because the reaper king says it's a good idea...

The ending that is a hybrid of the destroy and control themes. The one that destroys everyone a little and controls everyone a little...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 novembre 2012 - 10:32 .

[BleedingUranium]

Don't forget the goddamn green lines and eyes everywhere

[The Heretic of Time]

Andromidius wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Synthesis is the creation of something new by combining two different things, or the artificial creation of something.
If you don't want this definition you have to redefine the word for this topic, but if you do you have to keep in mind to create a clear base, because sometimes the usual definition here doesn't entail what you just wrote.

Though in Mass Effect its apperently one of the two:

1/ Organics having machines integrated into their body at the DNA level.  Against their will.

2/ Synthetics 'understanding' how Organics think.

David's experience is a cruder version of this.  He's merged with a machine, and upgrades the processing and logic powers of the VI.  Its two in one.

Except it isn't.

In Project Overlord the synthetics don't understand how organics think. And in Project Overlord, David does not upgrade the VI's processing powers, it in fact gives the VI an genuine conciousness. That's the reason why David was hooked up to the VI.