80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Eryri]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Dominating EDI is just a different word for controling EDI. Once again proving my point. Synthesis has nothing to do with this.

And what is EDI being controlled by? A hybrid of David and the VI. A synthesised being.

And what is the Shepard Catalyst in the Control ending? A hybrid of Shepard and an AI. A synthesized being.

I'm quite prepared to admit that there are elements of synthesis in control. 

But that's not really a hybrid in the same sense. Shepard's organic body is destroyed. There's nothing organic left. It's a purely synthetic AI that remembers what it was like to be human. Even the catalyst says that Shepard will become an AI (assuming it's telling the truth of course)

Edit The David / AI hybrid has an organic component - David, unlike the Shepalyst.

Modifié par Eryri, 26 novembre 2012 - 10:35 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Andromidius wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...David is still a seperate entity there.

Actually, a point is made in-game that that isn't the case.  Even his own brother, the project overseer, doesn't know where the two seperate.  Its not just a physical thing - David is inside the machine mentally, and the machine is flooding his mind with more information then he can possibly process.  The VI and David are one gestalt being.

Then watch the Control ending again.
"The woman I was [...] Through her death, I was created."

Okay. So Control contains a bit of Synthesis too.

Which strengthens the point about Overlord being mostly about control, and a bit about Synthesis.  Thank you.

Wat? You're trolling right now, right?

[Restrider]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Except it isn't.

In Project Overlord the synthetics don't understand how organics think. And in Project Overlord, David does not upgrade the VI's processing powers, it in fact gives the VI an genuine conciousness. That's the reason why David was hooked up to the VI.

I am not sure, but I remember some line of Legion in ME3 - I guess - stating that Project Overlord gave them a new perspective about organics. But I am not really sure if that's accurate.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Okay the project Overseer syas he dosent know where the machine ends and the organic part begins, tha alone is clear defining part of Synthesis. Even if he was beeing dramatic this quote is Synthesis in a nutshell.

But secondsly and most importantly is the fact that David Archers mind and the VI he was hooked up to became a Gestalt entity all on its own. It is not a organic mind and a machine working together, it is a single beeing created from the two as we are clearly shown. How is this shown (beyond beeing told directly)?

The mere fact that it can upload off site proves this is no longer the VI or David Archers mind in any kind of seperate function. The VI could not upload off site or take control of the Geth the way we fight them due to its heavily restricted nature of beeing a VI, David Archer likewise could not do so beeing an Organic mind. It is through their combination that a Gestalt mind, something akin to an AI not limited by David Archers physical restrictions or the VI's programming is born.

And that is Synthesis.

[MegumiAzusa]

Eryri wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Dominating EDI is just a different word for controling EDI. Once again proving my point. Synthesis has nothing to do with this.

And what is EDI being controlled by? A hybrid of David and the VI. A synthesised being.

And what is the Shepard Catalyst in the Control ending? A hybrid of Shepard and an AI. A synthesized being.

I'm quite prepared to admit that there are elements of synthesis in control. 

But that's not really a hybrid in the same sense. Shepard's organic body is destroyed. There's nothing organic left. It's a purely synthetic AI that remembers what it was like to be human. Even the catalyst says that Shepard will become an AI (assuming it's telling the truth of course)

And the AI created by David's death would be exactly that.

[The Heretic of Time]

Bill Casey wrote...

Synthesis as in the ending where Shepard performs a last minute experiment on the galaxy to rewrite their dna

^
|
This is the only true and accurate part of your comment.


There rest of your comment is just stuff you made up or pulled out of your ass.
|
v

and hook them up to giant brainwashing machines made of dead people because the reaper king says it's a good idea...

The ending that is a hybrid of the destroy and control themes. The one that destroys everyone a little and controls everyone a little...

[MegumiAzusa]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Okay the project Overseer syas he dosent know where the machine ends and the organic part begins, tha alone is clear defining part of Synthesis. Even if he was beeing dramatic this quote is Synthesis in a nutshell.

But secondsly and most importantly is the fact that David Archers mind and the VI he was hooked up to became a Gestalt entity all on its own. It is not a organic mind and a machine working together, it is a single beeing created from the two as we are clearly shown. How is this shown (beyond beeing told directly)?

The mere fact that it can upload off site proves this is no longer the VI or David Archers mind in any kind of seperate function. The VI could not upload off site or take control of the Geth the way we fight them due to its heavily restricted nature of beeing a VI, David Archer likewise could not do so beeing an Organic mind. It is through their combination that a Gestalt mind, something akin to an AI not limited by David Archers physical restrictions or the VI's programming is born.

And that is Synthesis.

You are all forgetting it's David that screams "Please, make it stop!" all the time. It's by no means a complete fusion, and can be easily reversed by unhooking him.

[The Heretic of Time]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Okay the project Overseer syas he dosent know where the machine ends and the organic part begins, tha alone is clear defining part of Synthesis. Even if he was beeing dramatic this quote is Synthesis in a nutshell.

Except it isn't. In synthesis the organics are still seperate from the synthetics, they're just both altered to be able to communicate with each other and understand each other on an equal level.


In fact, what the project overseer says does apply to the Control ending, where Shepards conciousness becomes one with the Catalyst, just like how Davids conciouscness became one with the VI.

But secondsly and most importantly is the fact that David Archers mind and the VI he was hooked up to became a Gestalt entity all on its own. It is not a organic mind and a machine working together, it is a single beeing created from the two as we are clearly shown. How is this shown (beyond beeing told directly)?

Which is EXACTLY what happens with Shepard and the Catalyst in the Control ending.

The mere fact that it can upload off site proves this is no longer the VI or David Archers mind in any kind of seperate function. The VI could not upload off site or take control of the Geth the way we fight them due to its heavily restricted nature of beeing a VI, David Archer likewise could not do so beeing an Organic mind.

An organic mind hooked up to a VI network can do that. Which is exactly what Project Overlord is.

It is through their combination that a Gestalt mind, something akin to an AI not limited by David Archers physical restrictions or the VI's programming is born.

No, nothing new is born. David is still a seperate entity. He is the one who's screaming "PLEASE MAKE IT STOP" through the entire DLC. And after David is diconnected from the VI network, he's himself again.


If David where to fuse with the VI, it still wouldn't resemble Synthesis, as no minds are fused in that ending. You know in which ending minds do get fused? Yeah, the Control ending.

And that is Synthesis.

No, that is Control. It's what happens with Shepards conciousness and the Catalyst in the Control ending.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 26 novembre 2012 - 10:44 .

[Eryri]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

You are all forgetting it's David that screams "Please, make it stop!" all the time. It's by no means a complete fusion, and can be easily reversed by unhooking him.

I don't claim that it is. But it is a fusion, even if an imperfect one. It is therefore, a synthesis - in a loose sense, - of man and machine.

Modifié par Eryri, 26 novembre 2012 - 10:43 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Eryri wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

You are all forgetting it's David that screams "Please, make it stop!" all the time. It's by no means a complete fusion, and can be easily reversed by unhooking him.

I don't claim that it is. But it is a fusion, even if an imperfect one. It is therefore, a synthesis - in a loose sense, - of man and machine.

Get your damn definitions straight. It's always something else.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 26 novembre 2012 - 10:44 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Eryri wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

You are all forgetting it's David that screams "Please, make it stop!" all the time. It's by no means a complete fusion, and can be easily reversed by unhooking him.

I don't claim that it is. But it is a fusion, even if an imperfect one. It is therefore, a synthesis - in a loose sense, - of man and machine.

So according to your logic, we have 2 Synthesis endings, 1 Destroy ending and 1 Refuse ending in ME3.


Not to mention that in the actual Synthesis ending, man and machine don't get fused at all.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 26 novembre 2012 - 10:46 .

[Bill Casey]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Synthesis as in the ending where Shepard performs a last minute experiment on the galaxy to rewrite their dna

^
|
This is the only true and accurate part of your comment.


There rest of your comment is just stuff you made up or pulled out of your ass.
|
v

and hook them up to giant brainwashing machines made of dead people because the reaper king says it's a good idea...

The ending that is a hybrid of the destroy and control themes. The one that destroys everyone a little and controls everyone a little...

The reaper king does say it's the ideal solution...
And he also says it connects the reapers to everyone...
And Reapers are brainwashing machines made of dead people...

[MegumiAzusa]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Eryri wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

You are all forgetting it's David that screams "Please, make it stop!" all the time. It's by no means a complete fusion, and can be easily reversed by unhooking him.

I don't claim that it is. But it is a fusion, even if an imperfect one. It is therefore, a synthesis - in a loose sense, - of man and machine.

So according to your logic, we have 2 Synthesis endings, 1 Destroy ending and 1 Refuse ending in ME3.


Not to mention that in the actual Synthesis ending, man and machine don't get fused at all.

No, we have 3 synthesis and 1 destroy. In refuse everyone gets harvested.

[Eryri]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Eryri wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

You are all forgetting it's David that screams "Please, make it stop!" all the time. It's by no means a complete fusion, and can be easily reversed by unhooking him.

I don't claim that it is. But it is a fusion, even if an imperfect one. It is therefore, a synthesis - in a loose sense, - of man and machine.

Get your damn definitions straight. It's always something else.

You seem to be getting annoyed. Since I've no wish to make your mood any worse I will retire from this discussion. We will have to agree to disagree.

[The Heretic of Time]

Bill Casey wrote...

And he also says it connects the reapers to everyone...

The Starbrat doesn't say any of the sort. You're just making stuff up. And you dare to accuse me of lying?

[Bill Casey]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Not to mention that in the actual Synthesis ending, man and machine don't get fused at all.

"As the line between organic and synthetic disappears, we may transcend mortality itself to reach a level of existence I cannot even imagine."

[Bill Casey]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

And he also says it connects the reapers to everyone...

The Starbrat doesn't say any of the sort. You're just making stuff up. And you dare to accuse me of lying?

Yes he does...

[MegumiAzusa]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

And he also says it connects the reapers to everyone...

The Starbrat doesn't say any of the sort. You're just making stuff up. And you dare to accuse me of lying?

In the EC it does, but in the EC it also began to have faulty logic.

[The Heretic of Time]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Eryri wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

You are all forgetting it's David that screams "Please, make it stop!" all the time. It's by no means a complete fusion, and can be easily reversed by unhooking him.

I don't claim that it is. But it is a fusion, even if an imperfect one. It is therefore, a synthesis - in a loose sense, - of man and machine.

So according to your logic, we have 2 Synthesis endings, 1 Destroy ending and 1 Refuse ending in ME3.


Not to mention that in the actual Synthesis ending, man and machine don't get fused at all.

No, we have 3 synthesis and 1 destroy. In refuse everyone gets harvested.

Oh yes, I guess you're right. According to these ITers, the harvest is also synthetis, so yeah, that means Refuse is also a Synthesis ending. 

[DoomsdayDevice]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Guys, I'm still catching up to the thread.

Just popping in to say this.

Swoby, that was really kind of you, really, but I'm not looking for people to 'help me out' on my thread. It's okay, I'm not even really debating with these guys, just trying to provoke some thought, it's not a problem.

If you genuinely feel like posting in there for whatever reason, cool, but I don't need (and don't mean) for this to become some kind of heated debate. I expected nothing but ridicule and so far it's not even that bad. lol

It's all good. Nobody needs to bother with the thread on my behalf.

To provoke some thought you have to provide a way to reach the thoughts and conclusions you did. Just posting the conclusions doesn't do that at all.

Well, I said in OP that I wasn't even trying to prove anything.

But you're absolutely right, it's more interesting with some examples, and some people expressed interest, so I've made several posts with examples throughout the thread and added a link to the OP. (By the way - one of the selections of quotes is an example of something else, namely that Bioware were planning ahead for the ending - it does not try to illustrate the point of the OP)

[Humakt83]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

And he also says it connects the reapers to everyone...

The Starbrat doesn't say any of the sort. You're just making stuff up. And you dare to accuse me of lying?

http://www.youtube.c...VEOMTHU0#t=657s

[The Heretic of Time]

Humakt83 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

And he also says it connects the reapers to everyone...

The Starbrat doesn't say any of the sort. You're just making stuff up. And you dare to accuse me of lying?

http://www.youtube.c...VEOMTHU0#t=657s

Well I always thought he meant to say that everyone is connected to everyone, much like the Helios ending in Deus Ex 2.

But yeah, I can see now that you can also intepreate "all of us" as "all of the reapers". It's a bit ambiguous.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 26 novembre 2012 - 11:00 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

Gavin Archer: This is a hybrid intelligence the likes of which I have never seen. I don't know where the man ends and the machine begins.

[Home run MF]

"Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology."

"The cycle will end, the Reapers will cease their harvest, and the civilizations preserved in their forms will be connected to all of us."

Organics are completely separate from synthetics? I think someone needs to play the game again.

[DoomsdayDevice]