80611 réponses à ce sujet

[RavenEyry]

smokingotter1 wrote...

“Now I'm about to call it.  You'll have to choose whether you want Petrovsky to work with you but Aria die or vice versa.”

That's probably the closest match.

[RavenEyry]

Restrider wrote...

Well, maybe I am still right with the Chorban DLC (also commonly dubbed Citadel DLC).

Forget Chorban and the keepers, Morlan's Famous Shop will be the focus.

[The Heretic of Time]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
I've learned that it's generally a dumb idea to introduce an entirely new character, plot device or plot twist during the resolution of the story. Such introductions are often experienced as a "deus ex machina". These things are best introduced during the 2nd plot point, or the climax of the story. It's often called bad writing when someone does introduce a new element during the resolution.

Yes everyone knows that. It's one of the things that isn't real in IT.

Which doesn't make it better, it only makes it worse in my opinion.

I dont see how considering a common belief in the IT is that the child in every iteration, including the dreams is a vision induced by Harbinger, an old character who was mysteriously absent (yet mentioned like he was a big deal on at least two occasions) from the game.

That makes it not a new character, but an old character performing a deception and perhaps even better ties all the appeareances of the child together meaning the character of the child, even if a vision was present since the beginning.

And all that would be GREAT if that was indeed the case and if that was properly explained or properly hinted at during the climax. Instead we get a vague deus ex machina during the resolution with no further explanation what the f*ck was going on after his appearance.

If the kid was Harbinger all the time, it should have been the climax of the game, leading to either Shepards downfal, or his victory. Not to mention the "falling action", which takes place between the climax and the resolution.

If the Starchild was indeed the climax of the story (which would be a rather sudden climax, but that's okay), then that means we still need a 'falling action' and a 'resolution'. In other words, we need to see how our confrontation with the Starchild changes the variables and how that plays out for our hero.

The EC sort of does this. That's one of the few things about the EC. It actually shows us the consequences of out confrontation with the Starchild. First we see the direct consequences, which could be considered the 'falling action' and after that we see the slideshow, which could be considered the 'resolution'. This is of course only true if we approach the EC from the literal perspective. If you believe in the IT than it means even today ME3 is still  lacking a 'falling action' and 'resolution'. Which means we're dealing with an incomplete story. Not the best way to end a trilogy now is it?

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 28 novembre 2012 - 09:23 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...


You're talking about the original score that played during the scene where the Normandy is getting destroyed before the EC?

Well yeah, that was not necessarily bad. It's something most music composers do at the climax of something, or at a cliffhanger.

Correct. And I don't think it's bad, but it definitely performs a cliffhanger function -- and that was rectified in the EC... so now it ends on a resolved major chord. In the same way, if the Catalyst thing *is* some twisted version of a cliffhanger, it's not necessarily bad (still a buttload of forced exposition...)... but the whole audience was expecting resolution and got two instances of cliffhanger cues.

Agreed.


I also try to think of any trilogy that ever ended on a cliffhanger. I can't think of any trilogy that ever did that. Not a movie trilogy, not a game trilogy either.

Do you know any past examples of trilogies that ended on a cliffhanger? And I don't mean a cliffhanger AFTER the resolution, but rather a cliffhanger DURING or INSTEAD OF the resolution.

The Kingdom Hearts series lives and breathes pretty much setting thinsg up or hinting at the next game with the end of each of the older ones. Not outright cliffhangers in most cases (though i would argue Sora going to sleep at the end of Chain of Memories count) and Dream. Drop. Distance. ends on the certainty that things are about to get really, really bad.

True none of the games pretend they are going to resolve the plot in that paticular game, but they arent exactly telling you it is over either.

This is 100% true. But keep in mind that the Kingdom Hearts series isn't over. We're still waiting for the final part of the trilogy. At least, I hope that we'll ever get Kingdom Hearts 3. It has been ages since we last heard anything about KH3. I wander what's taking them so long. I want my KH3 and rather quickly!


I have to say that Kingdom Hearts isn't really a shining example of good story writing to be honest. I think the story of Kingdom Hearts is a big mess at times and somtimes even borderline ridiculous. I still like Kingdom Hearts though.

[Krimzie]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
This is of course only true if we approach the EC from the literal perspective. If you believe in the IT than it means even today ME3 is still  lacking a 'falling action' and 'resolution'. Which means we're dealing with an incomplete story. Not the best way to end a trilogy now is it?

There is a possible explanation for the lack of falling action and resolution that should work with both literal and IT interpretations of the ending... I'll give it a shot, see how it floats...

Mass Effect's an RPG and we are Shepard. We have always experienced the universe from his/her POV. If Shepard is indoctrinated or hallucinating or dead, so are we. 

My only problem with the EC is that we are thrown into an outsider's perspective on something we, as Shepard, is not experiencing and cannot experience. I think that's exactly why they made it a slideshow -- to perserve the fact that, in-game, we are always Shepard. And a dead or Reaperfied Shepard can't see the results of his/her actions.


(Edit to Add: sidenote... I enjoy playing in the sandboxes of all the interpretations, so even though for my purposes the ending is a hallucination, at least from after the line "what do you need me to do?" and onwards, I am enjoying running things through the Literal Lens just to see how it functions.)

Modifié par Krimzie, 28 novembre 2012 - 09:31 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Krimzie wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
This is of course only true if we approach the EC from the literal perspective. If you believe in the IT than it means even today ME3 is still  lacking a 'falling action' and 'resolution'. Which means we're dealing with an incomplete story. Not the best way to end a trilogy now is it?

There is a possible explanation for the lack of falling action and resolution that should work with both literal and IT interpretations of the ending... I'll give it a shot, see how it floats...

Mass Effect's an RPG and we are Shepard. We have always experienced the universe from his/her POV. If Shepard is indoctrinated or hallucinating or dead, so are we. 

My only problem with the EC is that we are thrown into an outsider's perspective on something we, as Shepard, as not experiencing and  cannot experience. I think that's exactly why they made it a slideshow -- to perserve the fact that, in-game, we are always Shepard. And a dead or Reaperfied Shepard can't see the results of his/her actions.

While I understand your reasoning, it's not entirely correct.

There are plenty of occasions in the Mass Effect trilogy where we as the player get to see stuff that Shepard doesn't see. We as the player therefor know a lot of stuff that Shepard simply can't know, even if we don't read the books and only play the games. Sovereign attacking the Citadel while Shepard is still on Ilos is one example of us, the players, seeing and learning something that Shepard doesn't see and does not yet know either.

An even better example is the moment we get to play as Joker in ME2. 

So saying that we experience the entire trilogy, except for the EC, entirely from the perspective of Shepard and only from Shepard is not true. Therefor your little hypothesis here in your post doesn't hold up.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 28 novembre 2012 - 09:32 .

[Ithurael]

Krimzie wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
This is of course only true if we approach the EC from the literal perspective. If you believe in the IT than it means even today ME3 is still  lacking a 'falling action' and 'resolution'. Which means we're dealing with an incomplete story. Not the best way to end a trilogy now is it?

There is a possible explanation for the lack of falling action and resolution that should work with both literal and IT interpretations of the ending... I'll give it a shot, see how it floats...

Mass Effect's an RPG and we are Shepard. We have always experienced the universe from his/her POV. If Shepard is indoctrinated or hallucinating or dead, so are we. 

My only problem with the EC is that we are thrown into an outsider's perspective on something we, as Shepard, as not experiencing and  cannot experience. I think that's exactly why they made it a slideshow -- to perserve the fact that, in-game, we are always Shepard. And a dead or Reaperfied Shepard can't see the results of his/her actions.

(Edit to Add: sidenote... I enjoy playing in the sandboxes of ALL the interpretations, so even though I tend to lean toward the ending as a hallucination, at least from after the line "what do you need me to do?" and onwards, I am enjoying taking the endings more critically right now...)

Even if you shoot the tube you still see a slideshow and the effects of the choices and even if you pick indoc endings you see slideshow.

Only in refuse do you/shepard NOT see the effects. Which is why I still believe that refuse is the true indoctrination breaker.

It is the only one you need to use the dialog wheel to get (which was/is ME's primary mechanic)
It is the only ending where shep acts like shep
It is the only ending where starbinger reveals his true nature

And the beauty of this ending of IT is that:
- shep breaks indoctrination
- the reapers harvest everyone
- the next cycle (stargazer scene) describes that due to our sacrifice the next cycle defeated the reapers

So yes, we lose no matter what, but in the end the reapers fall.

At least that is my interpretation of IT:P

[Krimzie]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
This is of course only true if we approach the EC from the literal perspective. If you believe in the IT than it means even today ME3 is still  lacking a 'falling action' and 'resolution'. Which means we're dealing with an incomplete story. Not the best way to end a trilogy now is it?

There is a possible explanation for the lack of falling action and resolution that should work with both literal and IT interpretations of the ending... I'll give it a shot, see how it floats...

Mass Effect's an RPG and we are Shepard. We have always experienced the universe from his/her POV. If Shepard is indoctrinated or hallucinating or dead, so are we. 

My only problem with the EC is that we are thrown into an outsider's perspective on something we, as Shepard, as not experiencing and  cannot experience. I think that's exactly why they made it a slideshow -- to perserve the fact that, in-game, we are always Shepard. And a dead or Reaperfied Shepard can't see the results of his/her actions.

While I understand your reasoning, it's not entirely correct.

There are plenty of occasions in the Mass Effect trilogy where we as the player get to see stuff that Shepard doesn't see. We as the player therefor know a lot of stuff that Shepard simply can't know, even if we don't read the books and only play the games. Sovereign attacking the Citadel while Shepard is still on Ilos is one example of us, the players, seeing and learning something that Shepard doesn't see and does not yet know either.

An even better example is the moment we get to play as Joker in ME2. 

So saying that we experience the entire trilogy, except for the EC, entirely from the perspective of Shepard and only from Shepard is not true.

Aaaaand it sinks. You got me there. Now I've circled back to thinking the only effect of the original ending, intended or not, is a big and taunting aura of Cliffhanger.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...


You're talking about the original score that played during the scene where the Normandy is getting destroyed before the EC?

Well yeah, that was not necessarily bad. It's something most music composers do at the climax of something, or at a cliffhanger.

Correct. And I don't think it's bad, but it definitely performs a cliffhanger function -- and that was rectified in the EC... so now it ends on a resolved major chord. In the same way, if the Catalyst thing *is* some twisted version of a cliffhanger, it's not necessarily bad (still a buttload of forced exposition...)... but the whole audience was expecting resolution and got two instances of cliffhanger cues.

Agreed.


I also try to think of any trilogy that ever ended on a cliffhanger. I can't think of any trilogy that ever did that. Not a movie trilogy, not a game trilogy either.

Do you know any past examples of trilogies that ended on a cliffhanger? And I don't mean a cliffhanger AFTER the resolution, but rather a cliffhanger DURING or INSTEAD OF the resolution.

The Kingdom Hearts series lives and breathes pretty much setting thinsg up or hinting at the next game with the end of each of the older ones. Not outright cliffhangers in most cases (though i would argue Sora going to sleep at the end of Chain of Memories count) and Dream. Drop. Distance. ends on the certainty that things are about to get really, really bad.

True none of the games pretend they are going to resolve the plot in that paticular game, but they arent exactly telling you it is over either.

This is 100% true. But keep in mind that the Kingdom Hearts series isn't over. We're still waiting for the final part of the trilogy. At least, I hope that we'll ever get Kingdom Hearts 3. It has been ages since we last heard anything about KH3. I wander what's taking them so long. I want my KH3 and rather quickly!


I have to say that Kingdom Hearts isn't really a shining example of good story writing to be honest. I think the story of Kingdom Hearts is a big mess at times and somtimes even borderline ridiculous. I still like Kingdom Hearts though.

True enough, though I think the cluttered mess and trying to pull out the plot threads is part of the games charm. + Dream Drop Distance actually does a pretty good job of summing up the important bits of the plot in its entries on each game.

But yeah i am also waiting for KH3. Supposedly they are waiting for the next generation, at least that is what the secret message of KH: 3D hints at and the lead producer of the games is also currently working on FF: Versus XIII.

[The Heretic of Time]

Krimzie wrote...

Aaaaand it sinks. You got me there. Now I've circled back to thinking the only effect of the original ending, intended or not, is a big and taunting aura of Cliffhanger.

But that's begging the question though. Why would they end their beloved trilogy on a cliffhanger? And doesn't the Extended Cut fix this? I don't get the cliffhanger feel anymore after the EC. The story feels complete now. So what reason is there to believe that the IT is true? Please convince me.

No honestly, Is there still a reason to believe in the IT? If there is not, a reason why I must  believe in the IT, and people are just choosing to believe in the IT because they feel like it, than isn't the IT just a headcanon or a fanfiction in a way? I don't mean this in a rude, offensive or trolling way. I'm being quite serious here.


I have to admit that the Shepard breathing scene still feels somewhat cliffhanger-ish even after the EC, especially because it's the last scene we see before the Stargazer grandpa scene. But personally I think this breathing scene is nothing more but a teaser from BioWare to instill a sense of hope for all the people who can't handle the thought that their Shepard might have died during the "falling action" right before the resolution.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 28 novembre 2012 - 09:46 .

[Applepie_Svk]

Dunno why... but Nyreem looks more like that she was indoctrinated or in process of indcotrination...

[The Heretic of Time]

Applepie_Svk, my signature is offended by your signature. My signature thinks your signature is being ungrateful. Harbinger should be thankful to have such an amazing character as TIM as his minion. Harbinger didn't deserve TIM, he was too good for him.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 28 novembre 2012 - 09:49 .

[Applepie_Svk]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Applepie_Svk, my signature is offended by your signature. My signature thinks your signature is being ungrateful. Harbinger should be thankful to have such an amazing character as TIM as his minion. Harbinger didn't deserve TIM, he was too good for him.

You actually fulfilled second paragraph of my signature... thank you very much ...<3

[Krimzie]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

Aaaaand it sinks. You got me there. Now I've circled back to thinking the only effect of the original ending, intended or not, is a big and taunting aura of Cliffhanger.

But that's begging the question though. Why would they end their beloved trilogy on a cliffhanger? And doesn't the Extended Cut fix this? I don't get the cliffhanger feel anymore after the EC. The story feels complete now. So what reason is there to believe that the IT is true? Please convince me.

No honestly, Is there still a reason to believe in the IT? If there is not, a reason why I must  believe in the IT, and people are just choosing to believe in the IT because they feel like it, than isn't the IT just a headcanon or a fanfiction in a way? I don't mean this in a rude, offensive or trolling way. I'm being quite serious here.

I'm sure it varies from person to person, but for me personally? I believe that Shepard's indoctrinated or on the way to becoming indoctrinated and for me, that's enough; I don't necessarily need a follow up. I see the oily shadows, I hear the whispers, I hear the call for retreat and see Harbinger leave, I see the camera angles breaking the fourth wall, and I see the bright white light scene changes -- and then I see Shepard bowing in the same way the geth bowed before the light in ME1, and then I see the child from Shepard's nightmares greeting her and answering all herquesitons about the Crucible. I absolutely cannot, personally, interpret this scene literally. Others have, and that's fine. 

Since all of my interpretation of the ending is based in the ending itself -- nothing external -- I don't think it can be fanfiction or headcanon. It doesn't bring in any other information other than what was given to me in-game: my Shep is tired, she's having nightmares, she's hearing whispers, she's shooting Anderson, she's bowing down, she's being docile, she's passing out and seeing things. If anything, I've seen literal interpretation bring in more external reasoning than Indoc Theory does -- such as Shep having a resuscitator, or the Citadel having a forcefield protecting it, or other external justifications for why Shep can breathe in space and not have magboots at the ending.

And I also can't help but feel that when a Role Playing Game gives you no choice but to die (ignoring the metagaming of the breath scene), it is purposely taking away your ability to choose. Not because the writers have forgotten how to write an RPG script, but because they are purposely taking away your agency. Indoctrination is my answer to that, too.

Blah. Long post is long. But that's just my two cents and I speak for no one but myself. I respect all interpretations, but that's mine. 

Modifié par Krimzie, 28 novembre 2012 - 09:58 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Applepie_Svk, my signature is offended by your signature. My signature thinks your signature is being ungrateful. Harbinger should be thankful to have such an amazing character as TIM as his minion. Harbinger didn't deserve TIM, he was too good for him.

You actually fulfilled second paragraph of my signature... thank you very much ...<3

You're welcome.

Now tell your Harbinger to make my chose-the-control-ending-Shepard a sandwich or else he'll go "assuming direct control" on his ass.

[Rifneno]

That pic is inaccurate. Harbinger doesn't have a middle tentacle.

[The Heretic of Time]

Krimzie wrote...

I'm sure it varies from person to person, but for me personally? I believe that Shepard's indoctrinated or on the way to becoming indoctrinated and for me, that's enough; I don't necessarily need a follow up. I see the oily shadows, I hear the whispers, I hear the call for retreat and see Harbinger leave, I see the camera angles breaking the fourth wall, and I see the bright white light scene changes -- and then I see Shepard bowing in the same way the geth bowed before the light in ME1, and then I see the child from Shepard's nightmares greeting her and answering all herquesitons about the Crucible. I absolutely cannot, personally, interpret this scene literally. Others have, and that's fine. 

Since all of my interpretation of the ending is based in the ending itself -- nothing external -- I don't think it can be fanfiction or headcanon. It doesn't bring in any other information other than what was given to me in-game: my Shep is tired, she's having nightmares, she's hearing whispers, she's shooting Anderson, she's bowing down, she's being docile, she's passing out and seeing things. If anything, I've seen literal interpretation bring in more external reasoning than Indoc Theory does -- such as Shep having a resuscitator, or the Citadel having a forcefield protecting it, or other external justifications for why Shep can breathe in space and not have magboots at the ending.

And I also can't help but feel that when a Role Playing Game gives you no choice but to die (ignoring the metagaming of the breath scene), it is purposely taking away your ability to choose. Not because the writers have forgotten how to write an RPG script, but because they are purposely taking away your agency. Indoctrination is my answer to that, too.

Blah. Long post is long. But that's just my two cents and I speak for no one but myself. I respect all interpretations, but that's mine. 

Fair enough. I've nothing to say against that really, other than perhaps "I don't agree". But as you rightfully stated, it's your intepretation of the ending and you gave solid reasons why you believe it to be so. I just do not agree with your reasons, but that's just my opinion.

I could go in to detail why I disagree with your reasons given, but I'm sure you've heard them before. I don't care if I have to repeat them though if you so desire. Just ask and I'll do my best to explain.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 28 novembre 2012 - 10:05 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Rifneno wrote...

That pic is inaccurate. Harbinger doesn't have a middle tentacle.

Does that mean the pic proves IT? 

[ThisOneIsPunny]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
But that's begging the question though. Why would they end their beloved trilogy on a cliffhanger? And doesn't the Extended Cut fix this? I don't get the cliffhanger feel anymore after the EC. The story feels complete now. So what reason is there to believe that the IT is true? Please convince me.

I'm going to address this because I don't feel this same satisfaction or closure. The extended cut expects me to believe that I should be okay with my LI simply somehow knowing Shepard's not dead, specifically before the breath scene comes up. I don't understand how it's logical in the sense of the literal ending for the breath scene to still occur after the whole high ems slideshow.
My mind likes closure and I don't see it here.
Closure: Shepard and LI reunite in high ems destroy
Not Closure: LI holds name plate, looks up with hope gleaming in eyes, Normandy takes off, Shepard breath scene before credits
 This is not complete, for a high ems ending and the only one where shepard lives, this is butts.

Modifié par ThisOneIsPunny, 28 novembre 2012 - 10:10 .

[byne]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Its probably because I think way too much about things, but that picture has always bugged me since it means Shepard melted down people to make a Reaper for herself. And a lot of them too, since she's like twice Harby's size.

[Rifneno]

byne wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Its probably because I think way too much about things, but that picture has always bugged me since it means Shepard melted down people to make a Reaper for herself. And a lot of them too, since she's like twice Harby's size.

It's okay.  They were batarians.  It's okay to kill batarians.

[The Heretic of Time]

ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
But that's begging the question though. Why would they end their beloved trilogy on a cliffhanger? And doesn't the Extended Cut fix this? I don't get the cliffhanger feel anymore after the EC. The story feels complete now. So what reason is there to believe that the IT is true? Please convince me.

I'm going to address this because I don't feel this same satisfaction or closure. The extended cut expects me to believe that I should be okay with my LI simply somehow knowing Shepard's not dead, specifically before the breath scene comes up. I don't understand how it's logical in the sense of the literal ending for the breath scene to still occur after the whole high ems slideshow.
My mind likes closure and I don't see it here.
Closure: Shepard and LI reunite in high ems
Not Closure: LI holds name plate, looks up with hope gleaming in eyes, Normandy takes off, Shepard breath scene before credits
 This is not complete, for a high ems ending and the only one where shepard lives, this is butts.

Well I would be the last person to say the ending of ME3 is properly handled. You know my opinion on the writing of ME3, including the endings, including the EC. But aside from all the plotholes and inconsistencies, the EC, for the part, did give me (and a lot of other people) closure.

I'll try to respond to all of your issues:

Closure: Shepard and LI reunite in high ems

I find that entirely unneccesary. This is Mass Effect, not a dating sim or a Disney movie, even though ME3 did start to look like one. When a story ends there will always be some things left open to the imagination of the player. The EC gave us closure for all the major plot points from the entire trilogy. Mandatory stuff such as the romance subplot is left open to the imagination of the player. I'm fine with that.

Not Closure: LI holds name plate, looks up with hope gleaming in eyes

It's exactly as you say it is: The LI believes Shepard might still be alive. She doesn't know for sure, but she has hope. It's a gut feeling. I don't know if you ever hard a girlfriend or boyfriend, but if you did, I have to ask: Did you never ever feel a distant connection with your lover? A moment when you think about your lover, and you somehow "know" he/she is also thinking about you at the moment. Do you know that feeling? I do. And I'm certain that's what the LI also felt during the name-plate scene. At least that's my intepretation.

Normandy takes off,

So? This is simply to show that the Normandy crew is not trapped on the jungle planet, something a lot of fans feared after seeing the original ending. The Normandy taking off shows that the lives of your former squad members continues, even after everything what happenes. They're is hope and a future for them. That's good closure to me.

Shepard breath scene before credits

This is the only part where I agree that this is a cliffhanger. The scene doesn't give closure, although it can. What i does though, is give the player a sense of hope that their Shepard might still be alive and kicking. It takes away some of the uncertainty of the Destroy ending. The other endings don't have this breathing scene because we know for certain that in those endings Shepard dies or becomes something else entirely.

[The Heretic of Time]

byne wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Its probably because I think way too much about things, but that picture has always bugged me since it means Shepard melted down people to make a Reaper for herself. And a lot of them too, since she's like twice Harby's size.

The Shepard reaper is not twice the size of Harby. It's called perspective. They're the same size, Sheaper is just in front and Harby is in the back.


That said: That piece of art is obviously just a gag. It's not to be taken seriously. It was made to introduce a bit of humor to the rather serious and depressing atmosphere here on the BSN after the original endings.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 28 novembre 2012 - 10:21 .

[byne]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

That said: That piece of art is obviously just a gag. It's not to be taken seriously. It was made to introduce a bit of humor to the rather serious and depressing atmosphere here on the BSN after the original endings.

I'm aware of that. I'm not a humorless husk, yknow.

[Rifneno]

Here's another good one.