80611 réponses à ce sujet

[The Heretic of Time]

acidic-ph0 wrote...

Do the reapers outright lie? Like saying Red is Blue, 1+1=3...etc? No. So you are correct about that.

But do they make you lie to yourself via indoctrination? Yes! And that is much, MUCH more deceptive than just telling a blatant lie. So that's the point that I'm trying to make. 

So yeah, the Reapers will "lie" to you by making you believe something is true but obviously isn't... Like telling you that synthesis is the best thing ever because reasons! 

If you acknowledge that the reapers don't outright lie than you also have to acknowledge that everything the Catalyst says is more or less true. So that means you acknowledge that the Catalyst is an AI created by the Leviathans, not a reaper. You acknowledge the Catalyst speaks the truth about his motivations, or at least mostly. You acknowledge that the consequences of each ending option as told by the Catalyst is at least mostly true.

So, after acknowledging all that, what is left of the indoctrination theory?

[BleedingUranium]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

acidic-ph0 wrote...

Do the reapers outright lie? Like saying Red is Blue, 1+1=3...etc? No. So you are correct about that.

But do they make you lie to yourself via indoctrination? Yes! And that is much, MUCH more deceptive than just telling a blatant lie. So that's the point that I'm trying to make. 

So yeah, the Reapers will "lie" to you by making you believe something is true but obviously isn't... Like telling you that synthesis is the best thing ever because reasons! 

If you acknowledge that the reapers don't outright lie than you also have to acknowledge that everything the Catalyst says is more or less true. So that means you acknowledge that the Catalyst is an AI created by the Leviathans, not a reaper. You acknowledge the Catalyst speaks the truth about his motivations, or at least mostly. You acknowledge that the consequences of each ending option as told by the Catalyst is at least mostly true.

So, after acknowledging all that, what is left of the indoctrination theory?

Wow, those are some serious leaps of logic there.

[acidic-ph0]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Lovecraftian horror is stupid, especially in something as relatively grounded in reality as Mass Effect. Sovereign was just spewing crap to scare everyone, that was pretty obvious to me the first time I met him. Whether he actually believed it himself doesn't really matter.

Sovereign should have been named "Hubris".

Actually that is the perfect type of setting for Lovecraftian horror!

In all of Lovecraft's works, the monsters were terrifying  because they made us realize that the order and reality that we see in our world is really just a lie. Or at best only scratches on the surface of a much more terrifying reality... 

[Andromidius]

BleedingUranium wrote...
Wow, those are some serious leaps of logic there.

If you assume that I am the sexist man alive, you must then accept the fact all women desire me and all men are jealous of me.

Wow, leaps of logic are great!  Who wants their turn? 

[The Heretic of Time]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Yes, but Brotherhood is based on the Fullmetal Alchemist manga, so technically FMA is a remake of FMA:B.
I'm glad you agree with me. Usually on threads when I bring up anime equivilents I get shot down for various reasons. As for the Control epilogue, I think they meant to show that he was controlling that Reaper, but not necessarily dwelling inside it, though I suppose it's possible for Shepalyst to "assume direct control" of any individual Reaper.

Yeah I know that Brotherhood follows the manga more closely than the first FMA anime.

And if you took a look at my avatar you would have known that I'm open-minded about anime. 


I'm glad we can agree on what the reaper minds are probably like.

[Ithurael]

acidic-ph0 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Lovecraftian horror is stupid, especially in something as relatively grounded in reality as Mass Effect. Sovereign was just spewing crap to scare everyone, that was pretty obvious to me the first time I met him. Whether he actually believed it himself doesn't really matter.

Sovereign should have been named "Hubris".

Actually that is the perfect type of setting for Lovecraftian horror!

In all of Lovecraft's works, the monsters were terrifying  because they made us realize that the order and reality that we see in our world is really just a lie. Or at best only scratches on the surface of a much more terrifying reality... 

Ya.

Basically, Lovecraftian Horror was a massivly expanded mythos on the "there is always a bigger fish" statement.

[Rifneno]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Lovecraftian horror is stupid, especially in something as relatively grounded in reality as Mass Effect. Sovereign was just spewing crap to scare everyone, that was pretty obvious to me the first time I met him. Whether he actually believed it himself doesn't really matter.

Sovereign should have been named "Hubris".

No, I'm pretty sure Leviathan has the patent on Hubris.

Lovecraftian horror is one of the reasons Mass Effect was so good.  Pretty much any incomprehensible alien monster qualifies.  Alien and monster are pretty obvious, why's it unrealistic for an ancient malevolent starship from behind the stars to be beyond our piddly human comprehension?

I'm not against things being super advanced and such, but I am against the idea that he can't know something. Everything is theoretically knowable.

Don't get me, I never bought into it "our motives are beyond you" either.  Methods can be extremely complex, but motives and goals are pretty simple.  Take a nuclear power plant for example...  do you think the average dog can understand how those things work?  I sure don't.  But I'm fairly sure they could understand the motive: to create power for things like light bulbs.  We're no different, just more advanced.  There's plenty of things that are doubtlessly simply too complex for our brains to understand.

[The Heretic of Time]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

acidic-ph0 wrote...

Do the reapers outright lie? Like saying Red is Blue, 1+1=3...etc? No. So you are correct about that.

But do they make you lie to yourself via indoctrination? Yes! And that is much, MUCH more deceptive than just telling a blatant lie. So that's the point that I'm trying to make. 

So yeah, the Reapers will "lie" to you by making you believe something is true but obviously isn't... Like telling you that synthesis is the best thing ever because reasons! 

If you acknowledge that the reapers don't outright lie than you also have to acknowledge that everything the Catalyst says is more or less true. So that means you acknowledge that the Catalyst is an AI created by the Leviathans, not a reaper. You acknowledge the Catalyst speaks the truth about his motivations, or at least mostly. You acknowledge that the consequences of each ending option as told by the Catalyst is at least mostly true.

So, after acknowledging all that, what is left of the indoctrination theory?

Wow, those are some serious leaps of logic there.

And that's coming from an ITer? Hah, that's funny. 

[BleedingUranium]

acidic-ph0 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Lovecraftian horror is stupid, especially in something as relatively grounded in reality as Mass Effect. Sovereign was just spewing crap to scare everyone, that was pretty obvious to me the first time I met him. Whether he actually believed it himself doesn't really matter.

Sovereign should have been named "Hubris".

Actually that is the perfect type of setting for Lovecraftian horror!

In all of Lovecraft's works, the monsters were terrifying  because they made us realize that the order and reality that we see in our world is really just a lie. Or at best only scratches on the surface of a much more terrifying reality...

That sounds perfectly fine. Maybe I just don't know the detail of it enough, I always assumed it just was "these things are big and scary and you can't understand them because"

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Yes, but Brotherhood is based on the Fullmetal Alchemist manga, so technically FMA is a remake of FMA:B.
I'm glad you agree with me. Usually on threads when I bring up anime equivilents I get shot down for various reasons. As for the Control epilogue, I think they meant to show that he was controlling that Reaper, but not necessarily dwelling inside it, though I suppose it's possible for Shepalyst to "assume direct control" of any individual Reaper.

Yeah I know that Brotherhood follows the manga more closely than the first FMA anime.

And if you took a look at my avatar you would have known that I'm open-minded about anime. 


I'm glad we can agree on what the reaper minds are probably like.

I did notice that you avatar is Luffy from One Piece. I wish i had a better PC so I could make a custom avatar. I would totally become Selim Bradley.
You and I seem to have similar opinions on a lot of things, like Catalyst being honest with us.

[Andromidius]

Ithurael wrote...

acidic-ph0 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Lovecraftian horror is stupid, especially in something as relatively grounded in reality as Mass Effect. Sovereign was just spewing crap to scare everyone, that was pretty obvious to me the first time I met him. Whether he actually believed it himself doesn't really matter.

Sovereign should have been named "Hubris".

Actually that is the perfect type of setting for Lovecraftian horror!

In all of Lovecraft's works, the monsters were terrifying  because they made us realize that the order and reality that we see in our world is really just a lie. Or at best only scratches on the surface of a much more terrifying reality... 

Ya.

Basically, Lovecraftian Horror was a massivly expanded mythos on the "there is always a bigger fish" statement.

I always thought of it as "everything is knowable, but who wants to know everything?"  There are just some things sane humans don't want to know, and may not be able to handle knowing.

Pretty much every Lovecraftian character learns something that drives them insane or to suicide.  That's the chilling thing for me.

[BleedingUranium]

Rifneno wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Lovecraftian horror is stupid, especially in something as relatively grounded in reality as Mass Effect. Sovereign was just spewing crap to scare everyone, that was pretty obvious to me the first time I met him. Whether he actually believed it himself doesn't really matter.

Sovereign should have been named "Hubris".

No, I'm pretty sure Leviathan has the patent on Hubris.

Lovecraftian horror is one of the reasons Mass Effect was so good.  Pretty much any incomprehensible alien monster qualifies.  Alien and monster are pretty obvious, why's it unrealistic for an ancient malevolent starship from behind the stars to be beyond our piddly human comprehension?

I'm not against things being super advanced and such, but I am against the idea that he can't know something. Everything is theoretically knowable.

Don't get me, I never bought into it "our motives are beyond you" either.  Methods can be extremely complex, but motives and goals are pretty simple.  Take a nuclear power plant for example...  do you think the average dog can understand how those things work?  I sure don't.  But I'm fairly sure they could understand the motive: to create power for things like light bulbs.  We're no different, just more advanced.  There's plenty of things that are doubtlessly simply too complex for our brains to understand.

True, I guess I think of it (not in this case, I mean) as artificially making the enemies more scary.

Thanks guys, I think I understand the concept better, and it's not really bad.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 29 novembre 2012 - 04:29 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Andromidius wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...
Wow, those are some serious leaps of logic there.

If you assume that I am the sexist man alive, you must then accept the fact all women desire me and all men are jealous of me.

Wow, leaps of logic are great!  Who wants their turn? 

Keep on trolling. And these guys say I'm the troll? Haha, that's even more funny. 

[BleedingUranium]

Hanar, you're trying to argue our points by using things the Catalyst says and stuff in the slideshow as evidence against us. That's not going to get you anywhere.

[The Heretic of Time]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Yes, but Brotherhood is based on the Fullmetal Alchemist manga, so technically FMA is a remake of FMA:B.
I'm glad you agree with me. Usually on threads when I bring up anime equivilents I get shot down for various reasons. As for the Control epilogue, I think they meant to show that he was controlling that Reaper, but not necessarily dwelling inside it, though I suppose it's possible for Shepalyst to "assume direct control" of any individual Reaper.

Yeah I know that Brotherhood follows the manga more closely than the first FMA anime.

And if you took a look at my avatar you would have known that I'm open-minded about anime. 


I'm glad we can agree on what the reaper minds are probably like.

I did notice that you avatar is Luffy from One Piece. I wish i had a better PC so I could make a custom avatar. I would totally become Selim Bradley.
You and I seem to have similar opinions on a lot of things, like Catalyst being honest with us.

Well, I do get the feeling there is still a lot about the Catalyst that we don't know yet. The Catalyst is probably holding some info back. Hell, not probably, but most certainly. He flat-out refuses to answer where the Crucible came from. This shows that he does not tell us everything. But what he DOES tell us is most likely the truth. I have no reason to believe otherwise.


And yeah, Luffy is awesome. One Piece for the win!

Kaizoku-o ni, ore wa na ru!

[Andromidius]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Hanar, you're trying to argue our points by using things the Catalyst says and stuff in the slideshow as evidence against us. That's not going to get you anywhere.

I know I shouldn't make this analogy, but oh well...

Its about as credible as someone quoting Bible passages when asked to prove the existance of God.  It doesn't matter if what you're arguing is true or not, the evidence you're putting forward is completely irrelivent.  It leads to horrible circular logic where something is true because it claims to be true.

If you're going to argue something, you need to be grounded in reality and logical discourse.

[Krimzie]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
And that's coming from an ITer? Hah, that's funny. 

Hey now, he's not incorrect. Your rebuttal is based on a lot of assumptions and leaps. For example, being an AI created by the Leviathans does not preclude the Catalyst being a Reaper -- in fact, it supports the fact that he is "Reaper," or Reaperhood, or the ultimate Reaper -- he is the programmed code that gives the Reapers their directive. Reaper is just a word organics gave the machines. What the Reapers consider themselves to be is a directive.

Modifié par Krimzie, 29 novembre 2012 - 04:34 .

[BansheeOwnage]

Looking through the leaked script now. Finding some very interesting things. Look through it yourself to help!

- Confirmed that you were going to fight geth outside the Geth Consensus mission like Blur and I speculated way back. Vindication is sweet. IT next?

- You were going to fight with another Spectre but would be forced to kill them to save Javik.

- You were going to fight the reaper on Rannoch in a Hammerhead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DLC PLZZZZ????

- Were going to visit an ancient quarian city.

- The geth consensus was originally going to be "an idealized version of Rannoch" I find this not only very interesting in itself, but also because it sets an even better precedent for an alternate reality. This time, it's even more real. If the geth can do it, why not reapers?

[masster blaster]

You know what's funny I thought the Citadel was a trap, not a place for theb Catalyst Leader of the Reapers to live. I also find it funny that Leviathan lies to your face about the crucible. More over it makes Zero sense that Control, and Destroy options are on the Citadel. Really it makes no sense, and nobody ever bothered to look under the Citadel tower. I also find it funny that The brat is not telling his Reapers what's the Organics, and Synthetics planning, and where they are going to attack. Furthermore the big question is, why doesn't the brat have Control over his own home. Really it can bring an elevator to life, but not close the Citadel, or even open the mass relay in dark space.

Honest I fail to see the Catalyst on the Citadel.

1. Why would the Leader want to live on the Citadel, and not even have no Control over it?

2. How is it that it can Control Harbinger, if Harbinger can Indoctrinate both Synthetics, and Organics, if the brat is just an AI? Makes no sense. The only way I see it it that it his Harbinger. Yet no it can't be because they didn't mention Harbinger, and the AI being the same.

3. Why would the Leader of the Reapers just live out in the open where everyone can see him?

4. How does it know about the child?

5. How does it show what's going to happen in the chocies we will pick, before we can choose 1?

6. Why is it that no Reaper is inside the Citadel, just in case they found away into the Citadel? TIM being the only person gaurding the controls is just stupid. If he dies, then that's it.

7. Why is it that if the Catalyst can't make the crucible fire? Remember all that was needed was the Catalyst, but it can't do anything but talk about iis lame *** story about why he harvest life, and try to show Shepard he not bad.

8. How is the Catalyst doing anything? Really it just explains about all the chocies, yet it clams it doesn't know what the crucible does. Honest the one that does all the work is Shepard ( which we speculated that Shepard is the Catalyst)?

9. Why the hell is the brat telling us that there is not enough time, but it goes in depth about the endings/ what they will do/ questions Shepard has?

10. Why isn't Shepard angry? You would think of all the bs the Reapers have done would ****** Shepard off, even more so now that Anderson is dead. Or even in low ems. Shepard just show his/her squad die, yet not angry at all that Harbinger killed them. Nope.

[BansheeOwnage]

Andromidius wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Hanar, you're trying to argue our points by using things the Catalyst says and stuff in the slideshow as evidence against us. That's not going to get you anywhere.

I know I shouldn't make this analogy, but oh well...

Its about as credible as someone quoting Bible passages when asked to prove the existance of God.  It doesn't matter if what you're arguing is true or not, the evidence you're putting forward is completely irrelivent.  It leads to horrible circular logic where something is true because it claims to be true.

If you're going to argue something, you need to be grounded in reality and logical discourse.

I thought it worked great.

[The Heretic of Time]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Hanar, you're trying to argue our points by using things the Catalyst says and stuff in the slideshow as evidence against us. That's not going to get you anywhere.

You're obviously not paying attention then. I also used Leviathan against you. But oh wait, because Leviathan basically confirms that the Catalyst is real and that he's speaking the truth, Leviathan must also be lying!

You even dare to go as far as saying "yeaaaaaaah the AI Leviathan talks about is probably not the same AI as the Catalyst we saw." And then people dare to say I make big leaps of faith / leaps of logic?


No offense, but you folks only see what you want see and you only hear what you want to hear. As soon as something does not fit you, you're saying "using that stuff as evidence doesn't get you anywhere". Well sure it does!

If the slideshows contradict your theory (the fact that there is a Destroy slideshow is still a big hole/flaw/gap in your theory), than I can use it against you. You may not like it. but you can't simply handwave it away. Well, sure, you can, but you wouldn't be honest, neither to me nor to yourself.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 29 novembre 2012 - 04:37 .

[BansheeOwnage]

masster blaster wrote...

10. Why isn't Shepard angry? You would think of all the bs the Reapers have done would ****** Shepard off, even more so now that Anderson is dead. Or even in low ems. Shepard just show his/her squad die, yet not angry at all that Harbinger killed them. Nope.

Great point. Though, Shepard killed Anderson and didn't apologize.  Only makes sense in a hallucination.

[Rifneno]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Looking through the leaked script now. Finding some very interesting things. Look through it yourself to help!

- Confirmed that you were going to fight geth outside the Geth Consensus mission like Blur and I speculated way back. Vindication is sweet. IT next?

- You were going to fight with another Spectre but would be forced to kill them to save Javik.

- You were going to fight the reaper on Rannoch in a Hammerhead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DLC PLZZZZ????

- Were going to visit an ancient quarian city.

- The geth consensus was originally going to be "an idealized version of Rannoch" I find this not only very interesting in itself, but also because it sets an even better precedent for an alternate reality. This time, it's even more real. If the geth can do it, why not reapers?

Holy Christ on a ******!  Fighting a REAPER in a vehicle whose shields are seemingly made of sunshine and unicorn wishes?  Thank God that got cut.  OMG.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Yes, but Brotherhood is based on the Fullmetal Alchemist manga, so technically FMA is a remake of FMA:B.
I'm glad you agree with me. Usually on threads when I bring up anime equivilents I get shot down for various reasons. As for the Control epilogue, I think they meant to show that he was controlling that Reaper, but not necessarily dwelling inside it, though I suppose it's possible for Shepalyst to "assume direct control" of any individual Reaper.

Yeah I know that Brotherhood follows the manga more closely than the first FMA anime.

And if you took a look at my avatar you would have known that I'm open-minded about anime. 


I'm glad we can agree on what the reaper minds are probably like.

I did notice that you avatar is Luffy from One Piece. I wish i had a better PC so I could make a custom avatar. I would totally become Selim Bradley.
You and I seem to have similar opinions on a lot of things, like Catalyst being honest with us.

Well, I do get the feeling there is still a lot about the Catalyst that we don't know yet. The Catalyst is probably holding some info back. Hell, not probably, but most certainly. He flat-out refuses to answer where the Crucible came from. This shows that he does not tell us everything. But what he DOES tell us is most likely the truth. I have no reason to believe otherwise.


And yeah, Luffy is awesome. One Piece for the win!

Kaizoku-o ni, ore wa na ru!

     I would almost guarantee that they have a DLC dedicated to the Crucible: it's origins, who first built it(my money's on Keepers), how they got it to work with the Citadel, etc. That's why they left it vague, because a DLC will add to it, like Leviathan did, but it's not necessary for the core story. As for what he does share with us, I'm like you. I rationalized it as "He could have left us to bleed to death next to Anderson and TIM, yet he saved us and is now placing the future of the galaxy in shepard's plan because new and better options than the harvest are now available."

While One Piece isn' my favorite anime, it is quite entertaining to watch.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 29 novembre 2012 - 04:41 .

[Big_Boss9]

Rifneno wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Looking through the leaked script now. Finding some very interesting things. Look through it yourself to help!

- Confirmed that you were going to fight geth outside the Geth Consensus mission like Blur and I speculated way back. Vindication is sweet. IT next?

- You were going to fight with another Spectre but would be forced to kill them to save Javik.

- You were going to fight the reaper on Rannoch in a Hammerhead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DLC PLZZZZ????

- Were going to visit an ancient quarian city.

- The geth consensus was originally going to be "an idealized version of Rannoch" I find this not only very interesting in itself, but also because it sets an even better precedent for an alternate reality. This time, it's even more real. If the geth can do it, why not reapers?

Holy Christ on a ******!  Fighting a REAPER in a vehicle whose shields are seemingly made of sunshine and unicorn wishes?  Thank God that got cut.  OMG.

+1,000