80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Hanar, you're trying to argue our points by using things the Catalyst says and stuff in the slideshow as evidence against us. That's not going to get you anywhere.

You're obviously not paying attention then. I also used Leviathan against you. But oh wait, because Leviathan basically confirms that the Catalyst is real and that he's speaking the truth, Leviathan must also be lying!

You even dare to go as far as saying "yeaaaaaaah the AI Leviathan talks about is probably not the same AI as the Catalyst we saw." And then people dare to say I make big leaps of faith / leaps of logic?


No offense, but you folks only see what you want see and you only hear what you want to hear. As soon as something does not fit you, you're saying "using that stuff as evidence doesn't get you anywhere". Well sure it does!

If the slideshows contradict your theory (the fact that there is a Destroy slideshow is still a big hole/flaw/gap in your theory), than I can use it against you. You may not like it. but you can't simply handwave it away. Well, sure, you can, but you wouldn't be honest, neither to me nor to yourself.

Considering the theory revolves around the epilogues being fake, I don't see how you can rationalize using them to disprove it.  I do actually agree that the destroy slideshow doesn't make much sense, but that (along with one or two other things) is one point against vs. many, many for IT.

[The Heretic of Time]

Andromidius wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Hanar, you're trying to argue our points by using things the Catalyst says and stuff in the slideshow as evidence against us. That's not going to get you anywhere.

I know I shouldn't make this analogy, but oh well...

Its about as credible as someone quoting Bible passages when asked to prove the existance of God.  It doesn't matter if what you're arguing is true or not, the evidence you're putting forward is completely irrelivent.  It leads to horrible circular logic where something is true because it claims to be true.

If you're going to argue something, you need to be grounded in reality and logical discourse.

The irony in all this is that the bible analogy is more fitting for the IT crew than for me.


You guys have created a nice little theory, but a theory I do not believe in, just like I don't believe in the Bible or in God. I'm an atheist when it comes to god and I'm an atheist when it comes to the IT as well.

Meanwhile it is you guys that use circular logic and confirmation bias. Look, when I read a book, I have no reason to second-guess the words I'm reading. Same sh*t with the Catalyst. The Extended Cut effectively tells me what happens after I made my choice. You folks try to handwave that away as a mere illusion. And then you dare to compare me to a religious zealot? Well excuse me, but do you know what your behavior remind me of? It reminds me of creationists handwaving away the theory fo evolution because the theory does not fit within their own beliefs. Same way you handwave away the slideshows in the EC because the slideshows do not fit your belief in the IT.

[Andromidius]

Rifneno wrote...

Holy Christ on a ******!  Fighting a REAPER in a vehicle whose shields are seemingly made of sunshine and unicorn wishes?  Thank God that got cut.  OMG.

To be fair, it wouldn't have made much difference if it was a Dreadnought instead of a Hammerhead if it got hit.  And at least a Hammerhead might be able to dodge a few shots.

Though yeah, generally speaking I'd have rather had a Hammerhead vs Harvester battle.

Or my old Mako, if only for a little while.

[byne]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

- You were going to fight with another Spectre but would be forced to kill them to save Javik.

Why would I do something as silly as that?

[BleedingUranium]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Hanar, you're trying to argue our points by using things the Catalyst says and stuff in the slideshow as evidence against us. That's not going to get you anywhere.

You're obviously not paying attention then. I also used Leviathan against you. But oh wait, because Leviathan basically confirms that the Catalyst is real and that he's speaking the truth, Leviathan must also be lying!

You even dare to go as far as saying "yeaaaaaaah the AI Leviathan talks about is probably not the same AI as the Catalyst we saw." And then people dare to say I make big leaps of faith / leaps of logic?


No offense, but you folks only see what you want see and you only hear what you want to hear. As soon as something does not fit you, you're saying "using that stuff as evidence doesn't get you anywhere". Well sure it does!

If the slideshows contradict your theory (the fact that there is a Destroy slideshow is still a big hole/flaw/gap in your theory), than I can use it against you. You may not like it. but you can't simply handwave it away. Well, sure, you can, but you wouldn't be honest, neither to me nor to yourself.

1. That's still using the Catalyst against us, because it's connecting what Leviathan said to something we believed happened in Shepard's mind.

2. I don't see the issue there. The slides and speech are Shepard convincing himself he made the right choice by thinking about what he hopes will happen.


Also, you said before one of the things you don't like IT is because you think it falls under the "It was all a dream" trope, which it does not. Everything that happens in Shepard's mind is very important, he's not dreaming the whole thing in a normal sense, Harbinger's really in his mind talking with him. It's like saying what happens in dreams in Inception don't matter, it's simply false, they have very real consequences. Indoctrination is pretty much the same as the act of inception from that movie, actually: Planting an idea in someone's mind.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

But what he DOES tell us is most likely the truth. I have no reason to believe otherwise.

You mean, other than that he's the freaking Reaper Overlord?

I can't even begin to explain how naive that is.

Oh man, you're going to be so screwed when Bioware finally reveal what actually happened.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 29 novembre 2012 - 04:48 .

[CmdrShep80]

Hey DD I have something for you.  Remember that symbol that's now all over the Normandy?  I found the biggest one yet.  Plus it's sitting right next to a computer that says WRNG = Warning which is producing all those interesting waves.  By the way the WRNG label is everywhere so far.  Plus the waves are at places you need to hack in order to boost your control over the system....

[The Heretic of Time]

Rifneno wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Hanar, you're trying to argue our points by using things the Catalyst says and stuff in the slideshow as evidence against us. That's not going to get you anywhere.

You're obviously not paying attention then. I also used Leviathan against you. But oh wait, because Leviathan basically confirms that the Catalyst is real and that he's speaking the truth, Leviathan must also be lying!

You even dare to go as far as saying "yeaaaaaaah the AI Leviathan talks about is probably not the same AI as the Catalyst we saw." And then people dare to say I make big leaps of faith / leaps of logic?


No offense, but you folks only see what you want see and you only hear what you want to hear. As soon as something does not fit you, you're saying "using that stuff as evidence doesn't get you anywhere". Well sure it does!

If the slideshows contradict your theory (the fact that there is a Destroy slideshow is still a big hole/flaw/gap in your theory), than I can use it against you. You may not like it. but you can't simply handwave it away. Well, sure, you can, but you wouldn't be honest, neither to me nor to yourself.

Considering the theory revolves around the epilogues being fake, I don't see how you can rationalize using them to disprove it.  I do actually agree that the destroy slideshow doesn't make much sense, but that (along with one or two other things) is one point against vs. many, many for IT.

You mean zero points for the IT. All I've seen so far is your confirmation bias at work, no real proof or evidence or anything.


Saying that the epilogues are fake just because it doesn't fit your theory is like creationists saying the Theory fo Evolution is fake just because it doesn't fit their dogma.


I hoped debating with ITers would not be as mind-numbing as debating creationists, but it does seem to go into that direction, no offense.

[BansheeOwnage]

OMG Thane was going to save the hanar!

Originally, you team up with Kolyat, Kasumi and Thane to assassinate Udina (who's confirmed to be indoctrinated). The premise for this is he is planning the citadel coup with Cerberus, and he also want to pass a vote to let Kahje fall to help with other worlds. Thane manages to kill Udina, and ends the drell's debt to the hanar. Holy crap!

Also, he wasn't going to be killed by Kai Leng.

[DoomsdayDevice]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Hey DD I have something for you.  Remember that symbol that's now all over the Normandy?  I found the biggest one yet.  Plus it's sitting right next to a computer that says WRNG = Warning which is producing all those interesting waves.  By the way the WRNG label is everywhere so far.  Plus the waves are at places you need to hack in order to boost your control over the system....

Yeah, I'm not sure that label actually means anything, to be honest. It's all over the game, basically. It's also on Mars and so many other places.

Also, WRNG spells WRONG.

[CmdrShep80]

Outside the control 1 area...simply just says "Control." 

[byne]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I hoped debating with ITers would not be as mind-numbing as debating creationists, but it does seem to go into that direction, no offense.

I thought you said you'd stopped trolling.

[masster blaster]

Hanar did you know in arrival Shepard sees visions of what could be the future. It happence if you fail, or really slow down the first vision Shepard sees. Honest I believe it's easy for it to create a base illusion out of a fake vision. That goes for refuse to.

Now what I want to know is, if the Catalyst/Harbinger is in Shepard's head, then in knows everything about Shepard, and what he/she has done. If the Catalyst took the form of the child that died on Earth, then is it possible to create a fake vision, but have Shepard's choices that are important to him/her. Not really and consider Arrival, and Leviathan/ the Geth mission I think it's equally vaild.

[Krimzie]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

No offense, but you folks only see what you want see and you only hear what you want to hear. As soon as something does not fit you, you're saying "using that stuff as evidence doesn't get you anywhere". Well sure it does!

This tends to be how a lot of literary interpretation works. Read one of any number of scholarly articles on fictional pieces -- it's not "conspiracy theory," it's playing in a sandbox.

Hanar, I've been having fun seeing your side but your line of debate right now is becoming just as unproductive as an ITer handwaving a point against the IT; you're picking contrary sides when they're contrary, not because they necessarily make any sense. I think it's really good to have a person who doesn't buy this theory in here debating. I'm relatively new here, but it stirs up the brain juices. But this is elevating somewhere hostile and circularly pointless... and that's no fun. It can be saved if the "you folks" nonsense can be dropped and the "hey, we all play the same video game, let's debate!" swoops back in.

Just my two cents, bro, take it or leave it as you will.

[acidic-ph0]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

acidic-ph0 wrote...

Do the reapers outright lie? Like saying Red is Blue, 1+1=3...etc? No. So you are correct about that.

But do they make you lie to yourself via indoctrination? Yes! And that is much, MUCH more deceptive than just telling a blatant lie. So that's the point that I'm trying to make. 

So yeah, the Reapers will "lie" to you by making you believe something is true but obviously isn't... Like telling you that synthesis is the best thing ever because reasons! 

If you acknowledge that the reapers don't outright lie than you also have to acknowledge that everything the Catalyst says is more or less true. So that means you acknowledge that the Catalyst is an AI created by the Leviathans, not a reaper. You acknowledge the Catalyst speaks the truth about his motivations, or at least mostly. You acknowledge that the consequences of each ending option as told by the Catalyst is at least mostly true.

So, after acknowledging all that, what is left of the indoctrination theory?

Okay... I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you just misunderstood what I was trying to say, cause yeah... thats a huge leap in logic right there.

While I do believe that the catalyst is a real thing (Leviathan basically proved that), I do not think that the conversation you are having with the catalyst is truthful at all. In fact, I believe that whole conversation is just a ploy by the reapers to make your turn on your own morals and agree to their line of thinking through emotional manipulation.

- Flipping the paragon/renegade colors
- comparing the Reapers to a cleansing fire
- Making you believe TIM was right all along
- Selling synthesis as the best option
- Using the form of a child from your dreams

The information the catalyst gives you isn't the truth as presented through facts. It's the "truth" that the Reapers want you to believe by using misdirection and emotional manipulation in order for you to not destroy them. 

The best way I can describe this is to link you to this thread social.bioware.com/social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12241848/1 

That's a scene from Mass Effect Retribution where Kahlee experiences indoctrination. I think we can agree that what Grayson is telling her isn't very honest... Hell it doesn't even make sense! Just like the catalyst scene. But yet she feels compelled to believe it.

EDIT-

All this being said, it's just something I want to believe. Until Bioware says otherwise, what we have IS what we have and that's not much... Just a sh*tty ending that barely makes sense and should be taken at face value... otherwise the game is incomplete and has been for 8 freaking months. So yeah, I hate to admit it but I do think the endings as the stand now are are litteral and absolutely awful =/ 

All this indoctrination theory speculation is kind of a fun "what if" thing for me though.

Modifié par acidic-ph0, 29 novembre 2012 - 04:57 .

[Andromidius]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

But what he DOES tell us is most likely the truth. I have no reason to believe otherwise.

You mean, other than that he's the freaking Reaper Overlord?

I can't even begin to explain how naive that is.

Oh man, you're going to be so screwed when Bioware finally reveal what actually happened.

if*

Can't believe I just said that, but its true - there's no 100% guarentee they will do a reveal even if its true.  They might be super annoying and leave it up for speculation forever.

Which is just pure torture, but I'm readying myself for that possibility.  Or trying to at least.

[CoolioThane]

No. WRNG spells WRNG.

[CmdrShep80]

How many of you actually paid attention to this?  The datapad from "H" said that there was something off about the visual image of the patrols.  I stared at it for a while and the only weird thing I found was the patrols were not going in circles correctly.  There kept appearing random patrols out of thin air at the bottom left and the top right but none of the patrols actually disapeared (at least when I was staring at it) it kept looking like there were more people in the image then there must be

[Rifneno]

byne wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I hoped debating with ITers would not be as mind-numbing as debating creationists, but it does seem to go into that direction, no offense.

I thought you said you'd stopped trolling.

If anyone seriously believed he was done trolling, they need to stop being so damned gullible.

[Krimzie]

CoolioThane wrote...

No. WRNG spells WRNG.

Did all the Omega signage -- loading screens, etc -- use the some code cipher jawn that the Cerberus Twitter account did?

Someone should get on that ish.

[CmdrShep80]

CoolioThane wrote...

No. WRNG spells WRNG.

so WRNG at all the places with the ! points, with the shut down consoles, the shut off grids, and various other places where it would be sensible is just WRNG?  (wrong)

[CmdrShep80]

what was the cipher they used? I must have passed over it when i was reading the posts from twitter?

[Andromidius]

byne wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I hoped debating with ITers would not be as mind-numbing as debating creationists, but it does seem to go into that direction, no offense.

I thought you said you'd stopped trolling.

Not to mention that's how we see him, and the most common tactic used by anti-IT'ers is:

1/ The Catalysts says this.

or

2/ Bad writing.

Yeah, okay.  We're the 'creationists' here.

[Rifneno]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

what was the cipher they used? I must have passed over it when i was reading the posts from twitter?

rot-13

[CmdrShep80]

Andromidius wrote...

byne wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I hoped debating with ITers would not be as mind-numbing as debating creationists, but it does seem to go into that direction, no offense.

I thought you said you'd stopped trolling.

Not to mention that's how we see him, and the most common tactic used by anti-IT'ers is:

1/ The Catalysts says this.

or

2/ Bad writing.

Yeah, okay.  We're the 'creationists' here.

And the most common tactic used by ITers is saying it's WRNG