80611 réponses à ce sujet

[byne]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

what was the cipher they used? I must have passed over it when i was reading the posts from twitter?

You mean Rot-13?

[Rifneno]

Wow, I'm amazed at all the flags this game saves. First time I've ever done a playthrough where I hung up on the Council in ME1, and all the way in 3 Joker is mentioning it to Liara.

[Andromidius]

I should go to bed.

Notice the 'should', and the lack of 'will'.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Andromidius wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

But what he DOES tell us is most likely the truth. I have no reason to believe otherwise.

You mean, other than that he's the freaking Reaper Overlord?

I can't even begin to explain how naive that is.

Oh man, you're going to be so screwed when Bioware finally reveal what actually happened.

if*

Can't believe I just said that, but its true - there's no 100% guarentee they will do a reveal even if its true.  They might be super annoying and leave it up for speculation forever.

Which is just pure torture, but I'm readying myself for that possibility.  Or trying to at least.

That's not necessarily true. Mass Effect 4 will pretty much confirm, one way or another, whether the endings were literal or IT.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Andromidius wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

But what he DOES tell us is most likely the truth. I have no reason to believe otherwise.

You mean, other than that he's the freaking Reaper Overlord?

I can't even begin to explain how naive that is.

Oh man, you're going to be so screwed when Bioware finally reveal what actually happened.

if*

Can't believe I just said that, but its true - there's no 100% guarentee they will do a reveal even if its true.  They might be super annoying and leave it up for speculation forever.

Which is just pure torture, but I'm readying myself for that possibility.  Or trying to at least.

No, when.

I'm convinced and I'm not afraid to call it.

If others want to say "if", fine.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 29 novembre 2012 - 04:58 .

[Andromidius]

Rifneno wrote...

Wow, I'm amazed at all the flags this game saves. First time I've ever done a playthrough where I hung up on the Council in ME1, and all the way in 3 Joker is mentioning it to Liara.

Joker mentioned me 'hanging up on the Council again'  even though I've never done it.

Mind you, never heard him say it to Liara.  So maybe there is a flag for that.  Apperently there's a flag for if you got a discount from the Elcor merchant on Omega (and I didn't, why am I so nice to Quarians?  ...oh yeah.  I remember now.  nomnomnomnomnomnom).

[Arashi08]

@Hanar But are your points concrete? irrefutable? Obviously IT isn't either, not by a long shot, but clearly your points are not absolutely perfect because at least I would've seen that your arguments cannot be countered, and I only say that because I know myself and how I would look at something, not trying to speak for anyone else.

As much as I hate quoting C.S. Lewis one of his characters said something very interesting about stars in one of his books, I can't remember if it was from Chronicles of Narnia or not but when it was pointed out that stars were just giant balls of gas, this charater countered by saying that balls of gas aren't what the stars were, that was just what they were made of.

Not the best analogy for IT, I know, but the point is things aren't always "what you see is what you get." We don't have any proof obviously, but it is still fun to speculate. I've learned to accept and even appreciate, in my opinion, BioWare's attempt at an interesting ending that is meant to cause players to question their morality, and if the legacy saves are any indication, to see how many players were "indoctrinated." They clearly didn't do it in a way that was satisfying to most players, myself included, but IT or no, I feel that they could have been trying to accomplish something like this. again this is my opinion, much like IT is speculation, but I don't think it is any less valid if you disagree.

[Andromidius]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
That's not necessarily true. Mass Effect 4 will pretty much confirm, one way or another, whether the endings were literal or IT.

Unless its...

*shudder*

A prequel.

[The Heretic of Time]

BleedingUranium wrote...

1. That's still using the Catalyst against us, because it's connecting what Leviathan said to something we believed happened in Shepard's mind.

No, the fact that Leviathan confirms what you think is inside Shepard's mind proves that it's not inside Shepards mind. After the extended cut the Catalyst tells us who he is. Leviathan told us exactly the same story. I rather doubt that 2 different independent parties would tell us the exact same thing if it was a lie.

2. I don't see the issue there. The slides and speech are Shepard convincing himself he made the right choice by thinking about what he hopes will happen.

You're making stuff up to desperately try to fit what we got with the EC in the indoctrination theory and you don't even realize it.

It still begs the question though why Shepard would see the same type of "illusion" when he chose the High EMS Destroy option. It's still a big hole in your theory and you know it.

Also, you said before one of the things you don't like IT is because you think it falls under the "It was all a dream" trope, which it does not. Everything that happens in Shepard's mind is very important, he's not dreaming the whole thing in a normal sense, Harbinger's really in his mind talking with him. It's like saying what happens in dreams in Inception don't matter, it's simply false, they have very real consequences. Indoctrination is pretty much the same as the act of inception from that movie, actually: Planting an idea in someone's mind.

It's still falls in the "it was all a dream" trope. Just because you believe 2 of the 3 choices you can make would lead to a game-over screen doesn't lift this theory above the trope.

The Legend of Zelda: Links Awakening also falls under the "It was all a dream" trope even though everything Link does in his dream has a consequence on the real-world as well (in fact, he needs to do stuff in his dream in order to be able to escape from it).

So yeah, no matter how you look at it, the IT is just a plot-device to handwave away the current endings as "mere illusions" (in other words, all just a dream) to give BioWare the option to make new endings.

I also think the sole reason why you want to believe in the IT is because you don't like the endings in a literal sence and you still haven't gotten over it. That's what I think, but maybe I'm wrong on that. I can only speak for myself of course. I personally saw the appeal of the IT when I was still in grief over the crappy endings. However, I'm over the endings now and I no longer care. Now that I've grown over the endings I finally see that, in my opinion, the IT isn't that great after all.

[Andromidius]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

No, when.

I'm convinced and I'm not afraid to call it.

If others want to say "if", fine.

Just hedging my bets.

[Arashi08]

On an unrelated note...what are the requirements for a custom avatar again?

[byne]

Andromidius wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Wow, I'm amazed at all the flags this game saves. First time I've ever done a playthrough where I hung up on the Council in ME1, and all the way in 3 Joker is mentioning it to Liara.

Joker mentioned me 'hanging up on the Council again'  even though I've never done it.

Mind you, never heard him say it to Liara.  So maybe there is a flag for that.  Apperently there's a flag for if you got a discount from the Elcor merchant on Omega (and I didn't, why am I so nice to Quarians?  ...oh yeah.  I remember now.  nomnomnomnomnomnom).

I got a discount from him by threatening to break his legs.

Which incidentally was the paragon persuade.

Cause breaking legs is very paragon.

[BleedingUranium]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

But what he DOES tell us is most likely the truth. I have no reason to believe otherwise.

You mean, other than that he's the freaking Reaper Overlord?

I can't even begin to explain how naive that is.

Oh man, you're going to be so screwed when Bioware finally reveal what actually happened.

if*

Can't believe I just said that, but its true - there's no 100% guarentee they will do a reveal even if its true. They might be super annoying and leave it up for speculation forever.

Which is just pure torture, but I'm readying myself for that possibility. Or trying to at least.

That's not necessarily true. Mass Effect 4 will pretty much confirm, one way or another, whether the endings were literal or IT.

Agreed. They don't really have a way out of that.

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

But what he DOES tell us is most likely the truth. I have no reason to believe otherwise.

You mean, other than that he's the freaking Reaper Overlord?

I can't even begin to explain how naive that is.

Oh man, you're going to be so screwed when Bioware finally reveal what actually happened.

if*

Can't believe I just said that, but its true - there's no 100% guarentee they will do a reveal even if its true.  They might be super annoying and leave it up for speculation forever.

Which is just pure torture, but I'm readying myself for that possibility.  Or trying to at least.

No, when.

I'm convinced and I'm not afraid to call it.

If others want to say "if", fine.

I'm with you on this one Doomsday; it's coming, just a matter of when.

[Andromidius]

byne wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Wow, I'm amazed at all the flags this game saves. First time I've ever done a playthrough where I hung up on the Council in ME1, and all the way in 3 Joker is mentioning it to Liara.

Joker mentioned me 'hanging up on the Council again'  even though I've never done it.

Mind you, never heard him say it to Liara.  So maybe there is a flag for that.  Apperently there's a flag for if you got a discount from the Elcor merchant on Omega (and I didn't, why am I so nice to Quarians?  ...oh yeah.  I remember now.  nomnomnomnomnomnom).

I got a discount from him by threatening to break his legs.

Which incidentally was the paragon persuade.

Cause breaking legs is very paragon.

Daamn.  Who said Paragons couldn't be badasses?

[DoomsdayDevice]

Andromidius wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

No, when.

I'm convinced and I'm not afraid to call it.

If others want to say "if", fine.

Just hedging my bets.

I understand, I felt the same way for the longest time. I didn't want to be disappointed.

But then I dove into the dialogue of the game, and after getting my 4th wall broken like 50 times over in just a few hours playing, and the game beating me over the head that Shepard isn't really dead, and that this just a test, and that we all need to go through this, and that the war isn't over and that there are still monster out there in the dark and that the truth will become known.... need I go on?

Yeah. my doubts are gone. Sorry.

That reminds me, need to update my thread. Will do tomorrow.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 29 novembre 2012 - 05:05 .

[Rifneno]

Andromidius wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Wow, I'm amazed at all the flags this game saves. First time I've ever done a playthrough where I hung up on the Council in ME1, and all the way in 3 Joker is mentioning it to Liara.

Joker mentioned me 'hanging up on the Council again'  even though I've never done it.

Mind you, never heard him say it to Liara.  So maybe there is a flag for that.  Apperently there's a flag for if you got a discount from the Elcor merchant on Omega (and I didn't, why am I so nice to Quarians?  ...oh yeah.  I remember now.  nomnomnomnomnomnom).

Yeah, I've heard him mention it in the begining too.  Never to Liara though, like you said.

Joker: Meeting with the Council didn't go too well, huh?
Liara: It was less than ideal.
Joker: Yeah, that's a shocker.
Liara: Whole worlds are being lost to the Reapers. What more will it take?
Joker: Who knows? Hell, maybe the Council's just taking petty revenge for Shepard hanging up on them all those years ago.
Liara: Wait. Shepard did what?
Joker: <static> Sorry, I think we're going through some dark matter. Hello? Hello?

As for the Elcor, you did get a discount.  Even if you side the quarian and threaten to break his legs, Harrot gives you a discount to show there's no hard feelings.

[BansheeOwnage]

How Banshees were originally made:

AREA SUMMARY: This is where Shepard finds Falere, the youngest of Samara's daughters. If Samara is present, she is comforting her. Falere says her sister Rila is in a Reaper machine in the monastery's grand hall, where she is forced to feed off of captive asari and power their transformation into Banshees. Falere will meet Shepard there and let him in -- she does not trust herself not to feed off Shepard were she to travel with him.

Weird.

[The Heretic of Time]

Arashi08 wrote...

@Hanar But are your points concrete? irrefutable? Obviously IT isn't either, not by a long shot, but clearly your points are not absolutely perfect because at least I would've seen that your arguments cannot be countered, and I only say that because I know myself and how I would look at something, not trying to speak for anyone else.

As much as I hate quoting C.S. Lewis one of his characters said something very interesting about stars in one of his books, I can't remember if it was from Chronicles of Narnia or not but when it was pointed out that stars were just giant balls of gas, this charater countered by saying that balls of gas aren't what the stars were, that was just what they were made of.

Not the best analogy for IT, I know, but the point is things aren't always "what you see is what you get." We don't have any proof obviously, but it is still fun to speculate. I've learned to accept and even appreciate, in my opinion, BioWare's attempt at an interesting ending that is meant to cause players to question their morality, and if the legacy saves are any indication, to see how many players were "indoctrinated." They clearly didn't do it in a way that was satisfying to most players, myself included, but IT or no, I feel that they could have been trying to accomplish something like this. again this is my opinion, much like IT is speculation, but I don't think it is any less valid if you disagree.

Fair enough. You make some valid points. I respect your opinion and your view on the endings.

That said, I personally don't think if BioWare would dismiss at least half of their fanbase by saying "your ending isn't real, you're indoctrinated, haha, f*ck you, you should have chosen Destroy you ******".

^
That's basically what the IT says and that's what BioWare would be saying if they confirmed the IT. I don't think that's gonna happen. That's not BioWares style. BioWare always tried to make each and every choice and playthrough equally valid. It would be totally uncool to invalidate half of our playthroughs with something like the IT and that is one of the biggest main reasons why I do not believe BioWare will ever do anything conclusive with the IT. They're never gonna confirm it, not even in ME4.

[Rifneno]

Arashi08 wrote...

On an unrelated note...what are the requirements for a custom avatar again?

It's a not-so-legit thing.  We're not supposed to do it, but BW has been looking the other way for a few years.  You need either Dragon Age: Origins, or at least the demo character creator thing.  The character creator is a bit tougher to do it with I hear, but it's free so if you don't own Origins...  Basically you trick the thing into uploading a custom avatar under the guise of it being a face shot of your DAO character.  I don't have a link handy, but search for "custom avatar" usually finds you the good instructions.

[Andromidius]

I gave the Quarian money. So I guess I missed that bit.

And DD, I'm with you 99% of the way. And that 1% is just me thinking Bioware enjoy screwing with us too much to ever stop. And 0.0001% of me thinks the world might end before then.

Just not in 2012, because that's just dumb. Dinosaurs, man. Dinosaurs.

[BansheeOwnage]

Rifneno wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Wow, I'm amazed at all the flags this game saves. First time I've ever done a playthrough where I hung up on the Council in ME1, and all the way in 3 Joker is mentioning it to Liara.

Joker mentioned me 'hanging up on the Council again'  even though I've never done it.

Mind you, never heard him say it to Liara.  So maybe there is a flag for that.  Apperently there's a flag for if you got a discount from the Elcor merchant on Omega (and I didn't, why am I so nice to Quarians?  ...oh yeah.  I remember now.  nomnomnomnomnomnom).

Yeah, I've heard him mention it in the begining too.  Never to Liara though, like you said.

Joker: Meeting with the Council didn't go too well, huh?
Liara: It was less than ideal.
Joker: Yeah, that's a shocker.
Liara: Whole worlds are being lost to the Reapers. What more will it take?
Joker: Who knows? Hell, maybe the Council's just taking petty revenge for Shepard hanging up on them all those years ago.
Liara: Wait. Shepard did what?
Joker: <static> Sorry, I think we're going through some dark matter. Hello? Hello?

As for the Elcor, you did get a discount.  Even if you side the quarian and threaten to break his legs, Harrot gives you a discount to show there's no hard feelings.

That's awesome dialogue!

[Rifneno]

Andromidius wrote...

I gave the Quarian money. So I guess I missed that bit.

And DD, I'm with you 99% of the way. And that 1% is just me thinking Bioware enjoy screwing with us too much to ever stop. And 0.0001% of me thinks the world might end before then.

Just not in 2012, because that's just dumb. Dinosaurs, man. Dinosaurs.

...  What did you think happened?

[BansheeOwnage]

Rifneno wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

On an unrelated note...what are the requirements for a custom avatar again?

It's a not-so-legit thing.  We're not supposed to do it, but BW has been looking the other way for a few years.  You need either Dragon Age: Origins, or at least the demo character creator thing.  The character creator is a bit tougher to do it with I hear, but it's free so if you don't own Origins...  Basically you trick the thing into uploading a custom avatar under the guise of it being a face shot of your DAO character.  I don't have a link handy, but search for "custom avatar" usually finds you the good instructions.

I used the character creator it was fairly simple.

Here.
http://social.biowar...2113/blog/4817/

[Andromidius]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

That's awesome dialogue!

Its always funny how much Liara, the freaking Shadow Broker, doesn't know.  The amount she creeps on Shepard, and how important his/her actions were, you'd think she'd know every little detail.

But I think we all knew that already.

[Andromidius]

Rifneno wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

I gave the Quarian money. So I guess I missed that bit.

And DD, I'm with you 99% of the way. And that 1% is just me thinking Bioware enjoy screwing with us too much to ever stop. And 0.0001% of me thinks the world might end before then.

Just not in 2012, because that's just dumb. Dinosaurs, man. Dinosaurs.

...  What did you think happened?

...

...

...

All past disagreements are 100% forgotten.  You win.