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[The Heretic of Time]

byne wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I hoped debating with ITers would not be as mind-numbing as debating creationists, but it does seem to go into that direction, no offense.

I thought you said you'd stopped trolling.

I'm not trolling, I'm voicing my honest thoughts on this. I would be trolling if I were joking, lying, or trying to start a flame war. I'm not. This is really what it feels like to me right now. Maybe I need a break from the forum to cool down and clear my head, else I'll lose my temper and you guys will once again assume that I'm trolling, even though I'm not.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 29 novembre 2012 - 05:13 .

[masster blaster]

Honest Hanar if you don't argee with IT, then why are you here? Honest when ever we bring up something your like " No that not true, or that can't be right." For a guy that says we have zero evidence, your the 1 to talk.

That even goes with you trying to say " your just trying to make it fit your theory. Furthermore

1. You believe what the Catalyst says is true.
2. Everything that happence at the end is real
3. You don't believe Bioware can make IT work, or even think they are that good of writers.
4. Your one minded as could be the same for us.
5. You believe that Harbinger is not the Catalyst in the end.
6. You don't think that the epilogues can be an illsuion.

[BleedingUranium]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

1. That's still using the Catalyst against us, because it's connecting what Leviathan said to something we believed happened in Shepard's mind.

No, the fact that Leviathan confirms what you think is inside Shepard's mind proves that it's not inside Shepards mind. After the extended cut the Catalyst tells us who he is. Leviathan told us exactly the same story. I rather doubt that 2 different independent parties would tell us the exact same thing if it was a lie.

2. I don't see the issue there. The slides and speech are Shepard convincing himself he made the right choice by thinking about what he hopes will happen.

You're making stuff up to desperately try to fit what we got with the EC in the indoctrination theory and you don't even realize it.

It still begs the question though why Shepard would see the same type of "illusion" when he chose the High EMS Destroy option. It's still a big hole in your theory and you know it.

Also, you said before one of the things you don't like IT is because you think it falls under the "It was all a dream" trope, which it does not. Everything that happens in Shepard's mind is very important, he's not dreaming the whole thing in a normal sense, Harbinger's really in his mind talking with him. It's like saying what happens in dreams in Inception don't matter, it's simply false, they have very real consequences. Indoctrination is pretty much the same as the act of inception from that movie, actually: Planting an idea in someone's mind.

It's still falls in the "it was all a dream" trope. Just because you believe 2 of the 3 choices you can make would lead to a game-over screen doesn't lift this theory above the trope.

The Legend of Zelda: Links Awakening also falls under the "It was all a dream" trope even though everything Link does in his dream has a consequence on the real-world as well (in fact, he needs to do stuff in his dream in order to be able to escape from it).

So yeah, no matter how you look at it, the IT is just a plot-device to handwave away the current endings as "mere illusions" (in other words, all just a dream) to give BioWare the option to make new endings.

I also think the sole reason why you want to believe in the IT is because you don't like the endings in a literal sence and you still haven't gotten over it. That's what I think, but maybe I'm wrong on that. I can only speak for myself of course. I personally saw the appeal of the IT when I was still in grief over the crappy endings. However, I'm over the endings now and I no longer care. Now that I've grown over the endings I finally see that, in my opinion, the IT isn't that great after all.

1. That doesn't prove f*ck all, I know Anderson, TIM, the Crucible, and the Citadel exist before going into the dream, therefore the Catalyst can be based on something I already know something about, just like everything else is. This point actually makes IT stronger because Shepard's not making up the Catalyst from nowhere. If it's in Shepard's head then there's no "two independent parties"!

2. IT's most solid foundation is, and always has been the breath scene. There is no hole.


"falls under the "It was all a dream" trope even though everything Link does in his dream has a consequence on the real-world as well"

"just a plot-device to handwave away the current endings as 'mere illusions'"

Pick one.

[CmdrShep80]

Aria: You always did like blowing things up given half the chance

Though the one line that made me just now go Oh S***!

Nyreen: When Cerberus invaded, the Talons were a mess. I brought...new direction

The catalyst: The created will always rebel against their creators...The Crucible changed me. Created new…possibilities...I control the Reapers, they are my solution...(Shepard: Solution to what?) Chaos

[DoomsdayDevice]

Batarian preacher, in Omega DLC:

"Draw your weapons for the word, my friends! Draw your weapons and fight! Else certain doom awaits us all!"

"Sally forth and blaze gloriously through the stars!"

"You were warned! You were all warned! Watch now as the hands of the Reapers, the human invaders, lay ruin to all we hold dear!"

[Krimzie]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
That said, I personally don't think if BioWare would dismiss at least half of their fanbase by saying "your ending isn't real, you're indoctrinated, haha, f*ck you, you should have chosen Destroy you ******".

^
That's basically what the IT says and that's what BioWare would be saying if they confirmed the IT. I don't think that's gonna happen. That's not BioWares style. BioWare always tried to make each and every choice and playthrough equally valid. It would be totally uncool to invalidate half of our playthroughs with something like the IT and that is one of the biggest main reasons why I do not believe BioWare will ever do anything conclusive with the IT. They're never gonna confirm it, not even in ME4.

No, no, no, no, no! I'm being so emphatic about this because I don't think that's true at all -- at least not for everyone who buys IT, and please try to remember that we're all individuals who buy varying gradients of an overarching umbrella theory.

ME is an RPG -- the final choice is about choosing. You're still Shepard making a choice -- the reasons you made that choice are still there -- the morals motivating your choice, how you played your Shepard, ALL of it. Indoctrination wouldn't invalidate your choice; it would only alter whether or not you survive.

Modifié par Krimzie, 29 novembre 2012 - 05:17 .

[ThisOneIsPunny]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...


No, the fact that Leviathan confirms what you think is inside Shepard's mind proves that it's not inside Shepards mind. After the extended cut the Catalyst tells us who he is. Leviathan told us exactly the same story. I rather doubt that 2 different independent parties would tell us the exact same thing if it was a lie.

The Catalyst that, like the Leviathans when conversing within Shepard's mind, took the form of a child Shepard briefly met?
So what's you're reasoning for The Catalyst refering to itself as The Catalyst and not The Intelligence?

[CmdrShep80]

Here's another good one:

Nyreen: The deception was necessary. I needed to figure out what your plans were
Don't we say something like the catalyst is decieving us?

Aria: He's like his boss. No matter who suffers, and no matter the cost, he stops at nothing
TIM

[CmdrShep80]

Aria: If it was anyone else, I'd want blood but Nyreen's a variable I can control

[CmdrShep80]

seriously, you all are not seeing all the wonderful connections Omega has? That's what happens when you play RPGs too fast. They're meant to take forever to play through

[Krimzie]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
No, the fact that Leviathan confirms what you think is inside Shepard's mind proves that it's not inside Shepards mind. After the extended cut the Catalyst tells us who he is. Leviathan told us exactly the same story. I rather doubt that 2 different independent parties would tell us the exact same thing if it was a lie.

Wait, what? Leviathans and the Catalyst are not 2 different parties. The Leviathans designed the Catalyst. Of course they would both say the same story. Leviathans programmed that construct.

[MWMike2011]

Anything new today?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

ThisOneIsPunny wrote...
So what's you're reasoning for The Catalyst refering to itself as The Catalyst and not The Intelligence?

He never liked the name Intelligence and saw that Catalyst closely resembled what he was, so he got it changed.

[DoomsdayDevice]

BleedingUranium wrote...

IT's most solid foundation is, and always has been the breath scene.

"But what I need is proof! I can't take your word for this. Those assumptions merely leave my son stranded in enemy territory. Bilal may still be alive!" - Dominic Osaba

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 29 novembre 2012 - 05:20 .

[Andromidius]

ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...


No, the fact that Leviathan confirms what you think is inside Shepard's mind proves that it's not inside Shepards mind. After the extended cut the Catalyst tells us who he is. Leviathan told us exactly the same story. I rather doubt that 2 different independent parties would tell us the exact same thing if it was a lie.

The Catalyst that, like the Leviathans when conversing within Shepard's mind, took the form of a child Shepard briefly met?
So what's you're reasoning for The Catalyst refering to itself as The Catalyst and not The Intelligence?

I really don't get his logic.

"This proof of something is proof of the exact opposite, but I'm not going to tell you why!"

So Leviathan being able to create an artificial reality using Shepard's memories is proof that...  an artificial reality can't be created using Shepard's memories?  What what what?

[Andromidius]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

IT's most solid foundation is, and always has been the breath scene.

"But what I need is proof! I can't take your word for this. Those assumptions merely leave my son stranded in enemy territory. Bilal may still be alive!" - Dominic Osaba

I forgot about that.  The guy who's dogtags you find on Benning, right?

...and even then its not really proof of his death.  Merely that his dogtags were lost - no sign of the body at all!  But his father is willing to accept it...  Hmm.

[BansheeOwnage]

Krimzie wrote...

Indoctrination wouldn't invalidate your choice; it would only alter whether or not you survive.

Actually, it wouldn't. You'd live in destroy and die in control/synthesis.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Krimzie wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
That said, I personally don't think if BioWare would dismiss at least half of their fanbase by saying "your ending isn't real, you're indoctrinated, haha, f*ck you, you should have chosen Destroy you ******".

^
That's basically what the IT says and that's what BioWare would be saying if they confirmed the IT. I don't think that's gonna happen. That's not BioWares style. BioWare always tried to make each and every choice and playthrough equally valid. It would be totally uncool to invalidate half of our playthroughs with something like the IT and that is one of the biggest main reasons why I do not believe BioWare will ever do anything conclusive with the IT. They're never gonna confirm it, not even in ME4.

No, no, no, no, no! I'm being so emphatic about this because I don't think that's true at all -- at least not for everyone who buys IT, and please try to remember that we're all individuals who buy varying gradients of an overarching umbrella theory.

ME is an RPG -- the final choice is about choosing. You're still Shepard making a choice -- the reasons you made that choice are still there -- the morals motivating your choice, how you played your Shepard, ALL of it. Indoctrination wouldn't invalidate your choice; it would only alter whether or not you survive.

Javik: "The Reapers are cunning in their deception. Allowing life to flourish, century upon century, letting us believe ourselves the masters of the cosmos. Then the truth becomes known. There are monsters in the dark spaces. And we are their prey."

Javik: "Only the foolish mourn the loss of innocence. It is inevitable. The galaxy has never rewarded the naive."

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 29 novembre 2012 - 05:23 .

[The Heretic of Time]

BleedingUranium wrote...

1. That doesn't prove f*ck all, I know Anderson, TIM, the Crucible, and the Citadel exist before going into the dream, therefore the Catalyst can be based on something I already know something about, just like everything else is. This point actually makes IT stronger because Shepard's not making up the Catalyst from nowhere. If it's in Shepard's head then there's no "two independent parties"!

You can't use this to strengthen the IT, because Leviathan is DLC. DLC is option and can be skipped. Therefor you can't say the Catalyst and his story of origin is from his memories. Because if Shepard doesn't do the Leviathan DLC, he doesn't know about the AI.

So I can use Leviathan against you, but you can't use it against me becaue of the fact that Leviathan is optional.

2. IT's most solid foundation is, and always has been the breath scene. There is no hole.

But there is a hole. The whole slideshow is the hole. You handwave the slideshows away as "illusions". Then why do we also see a slideshow if we pick the High EMS Destroy option? Shouldn't Shepard be free from the indoctrination if he chose that? Then why do we still see the Normandy crash scene and a slideshow, which is, according to you guys, just an illusion? Try to justify that without jumping through hoops or making big leaps of logic. If you can't, it means it is a big glaring hole in your theory.

"falls under the "It was all a dream" trope even though everything Link does in his dream has a consequence on the real-world as well"

"just a plot-device to handwave away the current endings as 'mere illusions'"

Pick one.

That's a strawman and you know it. I'm not gonna fall for that. The IT falls under the "just a dream" trope to handwave away what we saw in the ending as "mere illusions", even though you think these illussions have consequences on Shepard, they are still just that: illusions.


Because you don't like the endings, you invented the IT, a way out to invalidate the endings, claiming they aren't real endings, so you can create an opening for new, this time TRULY REAL endings. While I understand the idea behind it, I absolutely disagree with it.

[BansheeOwnage]

ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

So what's you're reasoning for The Catalyst refering to itself as The Catalyst and not The Intelligence?

Hey Punny.  I didn't know you did voice acting! I'm kidding, but I swear you voiced Nyreen.

[Rifneno]

Andromidius wrote...

I really don't get his logic.

"This proof of something is proof of the exact opposite, but I'm not going to tell you why!"

So Leviathan being able to create an artificial reality using Shepard's memories is proof that...  an artificial reality can't be created using Shepard's memories?  What what what?

Still a lot better than some of the crap literalists have flung around "logic."  Remember that one who said Shepard can't get indoctrinated because his combat shield would protect him?

[masster blaster]

Not to mention Shepard thought Ann was there.

" Ann what are you doing here?"

Oh Shepard fail for it, but the Leviathan told Shepard that

" your memorys give us voice."

Ya it went though Shepard's memeorys, but that only can happen if you go inside Shepard's head.

[Andromidius]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

Indoctrination wouldn't invalidate your choice; it would only alter whether or not you survive.

Actually, it wouldn't. You'd live in destroy and die in control/synthesis.

Depends who you ask, some people think that you'll live in all of them and you'll just potentially be indoctrinated if you don't use a 'save' from one of Shepard's allies coming to the rescue somehow.  And others think even Destroy is a trap.

All we can really agree on in general is that Starbinger is a lying SOB and shouldn't be trusted, and Synthesis is definately stupid.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Andromidius wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

IT's most solid foundation is, and always has been the breath scene.

"But what I need is proof! I can't take your word for this. Those assumptions merely leave my son stranded in enemy territory. Bilal may still be alive!" - Dominic Osaba

I forgot about that.  The guy who's dogtags you find on Benning, right?

...and even then its not really proof of his death.  Merely that his dogtags were lost - no sign of the body at all!  But his father is willing to accept it...  Hmm.

No, no... it's a 4th wall breaking reference to Shepard in the breath scene. AKA the most often heard complaint about IT:

"But that means the game has no ending!"

EDIT: nvm, I see what you're saying.

Yeah, it's Benning. You can overhear from the soldiers in Purgatory that something "brutal" happened to him.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 29 novembre 2012 - 05:33 .

[Andromidius]

Rifneno wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

I really don't get his logic.

"This proof of something is proof of the exact opposite, but I'm not going to tell you why!"

So Leviathan being able to create an artificial reality using Shepard's memories is proof that...  an artificial reality can't be created using Shepard's memories?  What what what?

Still a lot better than some of the crap literalists have flung around "logic."  Remember that one who said Shepard can't get indoctrinated because his combat shield would protect him?

Thankfully, I don't remember that.

And even then, Shepard's shields are broken by the time s/he gets to the decision chamber.  So that argument is easy to destroy anyway!