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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#54351
The Heretic of Time

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Krimzie wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
No, the fact that Leviathan confirms what you think is inside Shepard's mind proves that it's not inside Shepards mind. After the extended cut the Catalyst tells us who he is. Leviathan told us exactly the same story. I rather doubt that 2 different independent parties would tell us the exact same thing if it was a lie.


Wait, what? Leviathans and the Catalyst are not 2 different parties. The Leviathans designed the Catalyst. Of course they would both say the same story. Leviathans programmed that construct.


They're still independent parties at the moment. The Leviathans have no control over the Catalyst or what he does or what he says.

Even though my mother gave birth to me, she created me, I'm independent from her now.

#54352
BansheeOwnage

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From the leaked script. More insight into the dreams. Cool stuff. Also, this takes place on Earth, during the Hammer mission.




Scene: Shepard sits down at his desk, obviously tired from the events up to now. Shepard lays head onto arms, and falls asleep.







[Cinematic]

As Shepard reaches out to touch the child, the child bursts into flame and ash.

The snow in the nightmare level is actually ashes. Shepard wakes up with a start.
Edit: Actually, probably not from Earth. Still...

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 29 novembre 2012 - 05:32 .


#54353
Krimzie

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

Indoctrination wouldn't invalidate your choice; it would only alter whether or not you survive.


Actually, it wouldn't. You'd live in destroy and die in control/synthesis.


:blink:
I just had to re-read all of this like six thousand times to understand what was going on  because I thought that's what I meant  -- then I realized I meant the "it" to refer "choice" and not "indoctrination." My grammar is dying a slow and horrible death tonight... derpderpderpina.

Modifié par Krimzie, 29 novembre 2012 - 05:29 .


#54354
Andromidius

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masster blaster wrote...

Not to mention Shepard thought Ann was there.

" Ann what are you doing here?"

Oh Shepard fail for it, but the Leviathan told Shepard that

" your memorys give us voice."

Ya it went though Shepard's memeorys, but that only can happen if you go inside Shepard's head.


Yeah, it goes to show how Shepard can be (temporarily at least) confused by entering into a simulated reality.  Add in being near to death and its easy to see how you can start agreeing with things that are worded in a reasonable manner...

#54355
Krimzie

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
No, the fact that Leviathan confirms what you think is inside Shepard's mind proves that it's not inside Shepards mind. After the extended cut the Catalyst tells us who he is. Leviathan told us exactly the same story. I rather doubt that 2 different independent parties would tell us the exact same thing if it was a lie.


Wait, what? Leviathans and the Catalyst are not 2 different parties. The Leviathans designed the Catalyst. Of course they would both say the same story. Leviathans programmed that construct.


They're still independent parties at the moment. The Leviathans have no control over the Catalyst or what he does or what he says.

Even though my mother gave birth to me, she created me, I'm independent from her now.


The Catalyst is still following the same construct that he was programmed with by the Leviathans, though. He's never changed his directive -- ever. And he can't.

If this is a reference to why he calls himself the Catalyst, there's both a literal and IT way to answer that: he heard Shepard talking about it on the Citadel, or he's interfaced with Shepard's brain.

#54356
Hanako Ikezawa

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Andromidius wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

Indoctrination wouldn't invalidate your choice; it would only alter whether or not you survive.


Actually, it wouldn't. You'd live in destroy and die in control/synthesis.


Depends who you ask, some people think that you'll live in all of them and you'll just potentially be indoctrinated if you don't use a 'save' from one of Shepard's allies coming to the rescue somehow.  And others think even Destroy is a trap.

All we can really agree on in general is that Starbinger is a lying SOB and shouldn't be trusted, and Synthesis is definately stupid.

Hey, I don't insult your choice, so don't insult mine.

#54357
masster blaster

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Hanar, you know there is a reason why Bioware makes dlc. So you can buy them, and play the god dam story. Honest you always say, but dlc... So I am right. Really just stop. If Bioware creates a dlc, that is part of the story, not weapons packs/ character out fits. Don't you think that Bioware wants you to buy it.

Oh and just for the record you could not buy ME3 and say the story ends in ME2. Your point being is....

#54358
Hanako Ikezawa

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Krimzie wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
No, the fact that Leviathan confirms what you think is inside Shepard's mind proves that it's not inside Shepards mind. After the extended cut the Catalyst tells us who he is. Leviathan told us exactly the same story. I rather doubt that 2 different independent parties would tell us the exact same thing if it was a lie.


Wait, what? Leviathans and the Catalyst are not 2 different parties. The Leviathans designed the Catalyst. Of course they would both say the same story. Leviathans programmed that construct.


They're still independent parties at the moment. The Leviathans have no control over the Catalyst or what he does or what he says.

Even though my mother gave birth to me, she created me, I'm independent from her now.


The Catalyst is still following the same construct that he was programmed with by the Leviathans, though. He's never changed his directive -- ever. And he can't.

If this is a reference to why he calls himself the Catalyst, there's both a literal and IT way to answer that: he heard Shepard talking about it on the Citadel, or he's interfaced with Shepard's brain.

are you saying the Catalyst is shackled?

#54359
Arashi08

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

@Hanar But are your points concrete? irrefutable? Obviously IT isn't either, not by a long shot, but clearly your points are not absolutely perfect because at least I would've seen that your arguments cannot be countered, and I only say that because I know myself and how I would look at something, not trying to speak for anyone else.

As much as I hate quoting C.S. Lewis one of his characters said something very interesting about stars in one of his books, I can't remember if it was from Chronicles of Narnia or not but when it was pointed out that stars were just giant balls of gas, this charater countered by saying that balls of gas aren't what the stars were, that was just what they were made of.

Not the best analogy for IT, I know, but the point is things aren't always "what you see is what you get." We don't have any proof obviously, but it is still fun to speculate. I've learned to accept and even appreciate, in my opinion, BioWare's attempt at an interesting ending that is meant to cause players to question their morality, and if the legacy saves are any indication, to see how many players were "indoctrinated." They clearly didn't do it in a way that was satisfying to most players, myself included, but IT or no, I feel that they could have been trying to accomplish something like this. again this is my opinion, much like IT is speculation, but I don't think it is any less valid if you disagree.


Fair enough. You make some valid points. I respect your opinion and your view on the endings.

That said, I personally don't think if BioWare would dismiss at least half of their fanbase by saying "your ending isn't real, you're indoctrinated, haha, f*ck you, you should have chosen Destroy you ******".

^
That's basically what the IT says and that's what BioWare would be saying if they confirmed the IT. I don't think that's gonna happen. That's not BioWares style. BioWare always tried to make each and every choice and playthrough equally valid. It would be totally uncool to invalidate half of our playthroughs with something like the IT and that is one of the biggest main reasons why I do not believe BioWare will ever do anything conclusive with the IT. They're never gonna confirm it, not even in ME4.

That's definitely understandable and a legitimate concern.  However the thing about IT is it isn't all just one idea for a theory, it's actually quite a few theory's and ideas, sometimes all shoved into the IT category.

I agree that BioWare likely wouldn't alienate their fanbase this way, but they would have consequences for it. 

Let's say for the sake of argument that IT is right and destroy is the best option.   That doesn't make it the "right" option per se, it just means that choosing this path makes it easier; you may have to make less sacrifices.  IMO any of the choices made could still allow the player to defeat the Reapers, but it might come at a greater cost, like having  some of your teammates/friends/LI die, or Shepard would be forced  to shoot her/himself in the same vein as Saren and TIM.  If they were going to make an ending where the player loses and becomes fully indoctrinated it would likely only be if you don't have enough EMS. 

I think if IT were accurate this would be the best route for BW to take, as it is one of safest ways since it would cause less backlash imo and is pretty much the same system they've used in the series; the choices you make matter, but don't completely change everything.  Your choices over the last three games could determine if you have to sacrifice something or not, same could apply for an IT ending.

That's just my opinion tho.  But do you think if the ending worked out more like this instead of "lol you lose shoulda licked Destroy!"  would that at least make it more acceptable?  maybe in the same way the EC made the endings somewhat more acceptable?

#54360
DoomsdayDevice

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

From the leaked script. More insight into the dreams. Cool stuff. Also, this takes place on Earth, during the Hammer mission.




Scene: Shepard sits down at his desk, obviously tired from the events up to now. Shepard lays head onto arms, and falls asleep.

[Cinematic]

As Shepard reaches out to touch the child, the child bursts into flame and ash.

The snow in the nightmare level is actually ashes. Shepard wakes up with a start.


You chase the child, trying to save him, but you never can. He always burns.

You hear voices of dead companions.

The Reapers are trying to make you feel guilty about all the ones you couldn't save, so they can persuade you to save your friends in the end. That's what the dreams do.

The Reapers just want to exploit that weakness many humans have, they want to save everyone. But you can't always win AND save everyone. Sometimes you need to make sacrifices.

Garrus: "If just one survivor is left standing at the end of the war, then the fight was worth it. But humans want to save everyone. In this war, that's not going to happen."

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 29 novembre 2012 - 05:31 .


#54361
The Heretic of Time

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Krimzie wrote...

Indoctrination wouldn't invalidate your choice; it would only alter whether or not you survive.


Which completely invalidates my choice, or better said, my ending.


If BioWare would honestly come out and say "hey dudes and dudettes who chose Control or Synthesis, your ending isn't real, your Shepard is indoctrinated and you f*cking lose! GAME OVER, please try again! And this time make sure you pick Destroy! TROLOLOLOLOLOL!"

Well, you can imagine what happens if BioWare would do that. Can you already see the flamewar starting? THAT'S what's gonna happen if BioWare would use the IT plotdevice and THAT'S why the IT is stupid. Do you honestly think BioWare would want to cause a 2nd flamewar?

#54362
DoomsdayDevice

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Quoting this, because of added edit.

I'm off for now. TTYL people. =)

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

IT's most solid foundation is, and always has been the breath scene.


"But what I need is proof! I can't take your word for this. Those assumptions merely leave my son stranded in enemy territory. Bilal may still be alive!" - Dominic Osaba


I forgot about that.  The guy who's dogtags you find on Benning, right?

...and even then its not really proof of his death.  Merely that his dogtags were lost - no sign of the body at all!  But his father is willing to accept it...  Hmm.


No, no... it's a 4th wall breaking reference to Shepard in the breath scene. AKA the most often heard complaint about IT:

"But that means the game has no ending!"

EDIT: nvm, I see what you're saying.

Yeah, it's Benning. You can overhear from the soldiers in Purgatory that something "brutal" happened to him.



#54363
BansheeOwnage

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DoomsdayDevice wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

From the leaked script. More insight into the dreams. Cool stuff. Also, this takes place on Earth, during the Hammer mission.




Scene: Shepard sits down at his desk, obviously tired from the events up to now. Shepard lays head onto arms, and falls asleep.

[Cinematic]

As Shepard reaches out to touch the child, the child bursts into flame and ash.

The snow in the nightmare level is actually ashes. Shepard wakes up with a start.


You chase the child, trying to save him, but you never can. He always burns.


Note: I was wrong. It wasn't from Earth.

Also, This is totally random and came out of nowhere. Sounds dreamy to me.

[CINEMATIC] As Shepard finds the person that was calling out, that person immolates and turns to ash.

#54364
byne

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

Indoctrination wouldn't invalidate your choice; it would only alter whether or not you survive.


Which completely invalidates my choice, or better said, my ending.


If BioWare would honestly come out and say "hey dudes and dudettes who chose Control or Synthesis, your ending isn't real, your Shepard is indoctrinated and you f*cking lose! GAME OVER, please try again! And this time make sure you pick Destroy! TROLOLOLOLOLOL!"

Well, you can imagine what happens if BioWare would do that. Can you already see the flamewar starting? THAT'S what's gonna happen if BioWare would use the IT plotdevice and THAT'S why the IT is stupid. Do you honestly think BioWare would want to cause a 2nd flamewar?


I dont see why not. If IT was their plan, such flamewars would likely be exactly their intention. To get us fighting eachother like the Reapers got the current cycle to do.

#54365
The Heretic of Time

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Arashi08 wrote...

That's definitely understandable and a legitimate concern.  However the thing about IT is it isn't all just one idea for a theory, it's actually quite a few theory's and ideas, sometimes all shoved into the IT category.

I agree that BioWare likely wouldn't alienate their fanbase this way, but they would have consequences for it. 

Let's say for the sake of argument that IT is right and destroy is the best option.   That doesn't make it the "right" option per se, it just means that choosing this path makes it easier; you may have to make less sacrifices.  IMO any of the choices made could still allow the player to defeat the Reapers, but it might come at a greater cost, like having  some of your teammates/friends/LI die, or Shepard would be forced  to shoot her/himself in the same vein as Saren and TIM.  If they were going to make an ending where the player loses and becomes fully indoctrinated it would likely only be if you don't have enough EMS. 

I think if IT were accurate this would be the best route for BW to take, as it is one of safest ways since it would cause less backlash imo and is pretty much the same system they've used in the series; the choices you make matter, but don't completely change everything.  Your choices over the last three games could determine if you have to sacrifice something or not, same could apply for an IT ending.

That's just my opinion tho.  But do you think if the ending worked out more like this instead of "lol you lose shoulda licked Destroy!"  would that at least make it more acceptable?  maybe in the same way the EC made the endings somewhat more acceptable?



Well at least you understand the problem with "vanilla IT". You made a clever workaround, saying that not everything is lost for Control and Synthesis Shepards. That would indeed be a smart direction to choose if BioWare ever wants to expand on the IT.

That said, it still would alienate people who genuinely liked the idea of becoming the God Emperor or creating a new Utopia. So the best way to go with IT would be to again offer us the options for Control and Synthesis at the end in some way or form. But then wouldn't the IT become rather pointless?

#54366
The Heretic of Time

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byne wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Krimzie wrote...

Indoctrination wouldn't invalidate your choice; it would only alter whether or not you survive.


Which completely invalidates my choice, or better said, my ending.


If BioWare would honestly come out and say "hey dudes and dudettes who chose Control or Synthesis, your ending isn't real, your Shepard is indoctrinated and you f*cking lose! GAME OVER, please try again! And this time make sure you pick Destroy! TROLOLOLOLOLOL!"

Well, you can imagine what happens if BioWare would do that. Can you already see the flamewar starting? THAT'S what's gonna happen if BioWare would use the IT plotdevice and THAT'S why the IT is stupid. Do you honestly think BioWare would want to cause a 2nd flamewar?


I dont see why not. If IT was their plan, such flamewars would likely be exactly their intention. To get us fighting eachother like the Reapers got the current cycle to do.


Yeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh because that's a totally smart thing to do.

Did you not see what happened last time when people reached the original endings? Do you honestly think BioWare would want to expose themselves to such a public outrage and such a huge amount of negative publicity... AGAIN?

Honestly Byne, you always gave me the impression that you're a smart fella, but this is just dumb.

#54367
byne

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Yeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh because that's a totally smart thing to do.

Did you not see what happened last time when people reached the original endings? Do you honestly think BioWare would want to expose themselves to such a public outrage and such a huge amount of negative publicity... AGAIN?

Honestly Byne, you always gave me the impression that you're a smart fella, but this is just dumb.


With all their yammering on about artistic integrity, I dont get the feeling they'd actually care if they got a negative response.

#54368
CmdrShep80

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Talon: Trust me. You hear any weird creepy whispering, you grab your friends and you run

#54369
Andromidius

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Its not like they can be hated more. And its not like the fanbase wouldn't split and bicker amongst itself anyway. You may as well use that rather then try to ignore it.

#54370
BleedingUranium

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

1. That doesn't prove f*ck all, I know Anderson, TIM, the Crucible, and the Citadel exist before going into the dream, therefore the Catalyst can be based on something I already know something about, just like everything else is. This point actually makes IT stronger because Shepard's not making up the Catalyst from nowhere. If it's in Shepard's head then there's no "two independent parties"!


You can't use this to strengthen the IT, because Leviathan is DLC. DLC is option and can be skipped. Therefor you can't say the Catalyst and his story of origin is from his memories. Because if Shepard doesn't do the Leviathan DLC, he doesn't know about the AI.

So I can use Leviathan against you, but you can't use it against me becaue of the fact that Leviathan is optional.


2. IT's most solid foundation is, and always has been the breath scene. There is no hole.


But there is a hole. The whole slideshow is the hole. You handwave the slideshows away as "illusions". Then why do we also see a slideshow if we pick the High EMS Destroy option? Shouldn't Shepard be free from the indoctrination if he chose that? Then why do we still see the Normandy crash scene and a slideshow, which is, according to you guys, just an illusion? Try to justify that without jumping through hoops or making big leaps of logic. If you can't, it means it is a big glaring hole in your theory.


"falls under the "It was all a dream" trope even though everything Link does in his dream has a consequence on the real-world as well"

"just a plot-device to handwave away the current endings as 'mere illusions'"

Pick one.


That's a strawman and you know it. I'm not gonna fall for that. The IT falls under the "just a dream" trope to handwave away what we saw in the ending as "mere illusions", even though you think these illussions have consequences on Shepard, they are still just that: illusions.


Because you don't like the endings, you invented the IT, a way out to invalidate the endings, claiming they aren't real endings, so you can create an opening for new, this time TRULY REAL endings. While I understand the idea behind it, I absolutely disagree with it.


1. This is about the Mass Effect universe. All of it: games, main missions, optional missions, DLC, novels, comics, everything. "It's DLC" isn't an argument against anything.

2. You ignored what I just said, the breath scene is the end of the illusion. Shepard makes the choice and them justifies it to himself, as in, we see the future Shepard hoped for.

3. You still don't get it. If the things that happen in the dream have real-world consequences then it's not handwaving.


Lastly, I first played through without spoilers and was unaware of this thread or the concept of IT. What we now call IT is what I knew happened from the first time I finished the game.

#54371
CmdrShep80

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You know...strangly enough the datapad picture of the adjutant looks vaguely similar to the map of the Citadel tower as an outline.

EDIT - Omega sure is noisy for just a few Talons up on the tiers.  You would think with all the shaking they would avoid the tiers so they don't fall off

Modifié par CmdrShep80, 29 novembre 2012 - 05:49 .


#54372
masster blaster

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Hanar EVERY CHOICE HAS a consequent's. Even the SMALLEST chocies have consequent's. Did you know if you got that Krogan Char with that Asari on Illium he dies, but leaves a poem to his blue rose of Illium.Did you know that the mother's baby if you did not side with the uncle dies!

Did you not know that every chocie you make as a down, or up side.

Destroy is the up side, and Control, and Synthesis are the down side, at least in IT. For literalist they think Destroy is bad, and Control, and Synthesis are awsome/ the best.

And this Bioware saying f u, well maybe you should have thought about makeing your chocie before you start saying Bioware riped us off. No you did. You failed for the Reaper's properganda, so it's on you not Bioware. You can only blame yourself for pick Control, and Synthesis.

#54373
The Heretic of Time

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byne wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Yeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh because that's a totally smart thing to do.

Did you not see what happened last time when people reached the original endings? Do you honestly think BioWare would want to expose themselves to such a public outrage and such a huge amount of negative publicity... AGAIN?

Honestly Byne, you always gave me the impression that you're a smart fella, but this is just dumb.


With all their yammering on about artistic integrity, I dont get the feeling they'd actually care if they got a negative response.


They want you to feel that way, because big company and such. But trust me, no company wants to go through what BioWare has gone through after the release of ME3. They'll never admit it though.


But sure, if this is what you wanna believe. Go head. We'll see who was right all along in a couple of years when we get to play ME4, assuming it's even gonna be a sequel (I doubt it).

#54374
ThisOneIsPunny

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Andromidius wrote...

I really don't get his logic.

"This proof of something is proof of the exact opposite, but I'm not going to tell you why!"

So Leviathan being able to create an artificial reality using Shepard's memories is proof that...  an artificial reality can't be created using Shepard's memories?  What what what?

I am genuine in wondering what his thoughts are on it, since not everyone analyzes the same way... Or at all..

BansheeOwnage wrote...
Hey Punny. Posted Image I didn't know you did voice acting! I'm kidding, but I swear you voiced Nyreen. Posted Image

I always did like blowing things up ;)

#54375
Hanako Ikezawa

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byne wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Yeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh because that's a totally smart thing to do.

Did you not see what happened last time when people reached the original endings? Do you honestly think BioWare would want to expose themselves to such a public outrage and such a huge amount of negative publicity... AGAIN?

Honestly Byne, you always gave me the impression that you're a smart fella, but this is just dumb.


With all their yammering on about artistic integrity, I dont get the feeling they'd actually care if they got a negative response.

Apparently they do, since they gave us the unplanned Extended Cut, pushing back development of all other SPDLC, as a token of friendship.