80611 réponses à ce sujet

[MWMike2011]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

except he doesnt look at him, the kid just slips in and no one helps or even looks at him

Except one of the soldiers DOES look at him (not that one particular soldier next to the door though). Pay attention and look at the details.

then theres the warning signs

and the third dream, shepard sees himself embracing the child, and they both burn. in other words dont trust him

That's not how I intepretated the dreams.

I'm still trying to catch up on the day's IT events, but I wanted to jump in here real quick to put in my two cents. Even when I played the demo, I was of the impression that either that kid was a hallucination Shepard's mind made due to the stress he had felt after the events of the past three games and when the child died, it was symbolism that part of Shepard died, or maybe his view that humanity's "innocence" had died, that now they were exposed and in a very losable war.

Then I thought about it a little more and just came to the conclusion...I think the kid might very well have been real. Shepard was merely distracted by him because, maybe, he felt that he was responsible for everyone, including this very innocent child. Were it not for him, the Reapers would not have attacked Earth first in an effort to try and stop Shepard from thwarting their plans. He represents a very real threat to their plans of conquest. When the chopper the child is on is struck down, something in Shepard snaps. He has nightmares where he tries to reach the child, but moves dreadfully slow, hampered by the spirits of those that also lost their lives because of his interference. Finally, when Shepard and Hammer (I think that's what they were called), ran down the hill to the conduit to reach Citadel, Harbinger is simultaneously shooting at various members of the group to stop them and scanning Shepard, knowing this is his chance to indoctrinate Shepard and make this valuable human one of his thralls once and for all. Shepard is hit by the beam, blah blah blah, the Starchild is born, an image taken directly from Shepard's head by Harbinger in an attempt to try and convince Shepard to make the correct choice and submit to ultimate indoctrination. Yes, there is the Destroy option, but I think this is a gamble Harby takes, as not having that would seem too suspicious to Shepard's subconscious.

I know, there are probably plenty of holes in this. Still, my interpretation. Even if the ending is literal, and IT is false, this will always, ALWAYS be true to me.  

[dorktainian]

MWMike2011 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

except he doesnt look at him, the kid just slips in and no one helps or even looks at him

Except one of the soldiers DOES look at him (not that one particular soldier next to the door though). Pay attention and look at the details.

then theres the warning signs

and the third dream, shepard sees himself embracing the child, and they both burn. in other words dont trust him

That's not how I intepretated the dreams.

I'm still trying to catch up on the day's IT events, but I wanted to jump in here real quick to put in my two cents. Even when I played the demo, I was of the impression that either that kid was a hallucination Shepard's mind made due to the stress he had felt after the events of the past three games and when the child died, it was symbolism that part of Shepard died, or maybe his view that humanity's "innocence" had died, that now they were exposed and in a very losable war.

Then I thought about it a little more and just came to the conclusion...I think the kid might very well have been real. Shepard was merely distracted by him because, maybe, he felt that he was responsible for everyone, including this very innocent child. Were it not for him, the Reapers would not have attacked Earth first in an effort to try and stop Shepard from thwarting their plans. He represents a very real threat to their plans of conquest. When the chopper the child is on is struck down, something in Shepard snaps. He has nightmares where he tries to reach the child, but moves dreadfully slow, hampered by the spirits of those that also lost their lives because of his interference. Finally, when Shepard and Hammer (I think that's what they were called), ran down the hill to the conduit to reach Citadel, Harbinger is simultaneously shooting at various members of the group to stop them and scanning Shepard, knowing this is his chance to indoctrinate Shepard and make this valuable human one of his thralls once and for all. Shepard is hit by the beam, blah blah blah, the Starchild is born, an image taken directly from Shepard's head by Harbinger in an attempt to try and convince Shepard to make the correct choice and submit to ultimate indoctrination. Yes, there is the Destroy option, but I think this is a gamble Harby takes, as not having that would seem too suspicious to Shepard's subconscious.

I know, there are probably plenty of holes in this. Still, my interpretation. Even if the ending is literal, and IT is false, this will always, ALWAYS be true to me.  

 If shep makes it to the child then something bad will happen thats for sure.  Guess what?  Shep meets the child and something bad happens.  With the Destroy ending Harbinger assumes that whoever makes it that far is indoctrinated anyway so will never pick the destroy option.  He gives the illusion of choice.  As seen with TIM, by the time you are indoctrinated you have no choice.  It's an illusion.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

My personal interpretation is that the Destroy option is manifested by Shepard subcounsciousness still struggling against Indoctrination, thus why Catalyst / Harbinger tries to guide you away from it.

However I also think even choosing Destroy is only a temporary freedom thus the lack of reaction from Catalyst. It breaks free now, but Shepard is still in the process of Indoctrination and might succumb later. I think so because all we have seen about Indoctrination makes it out to be a permanent or near permanent process as even though Shiala and the Rahcni Queen can resist they both confirm that they are hearing the Reapers voices.

[dorktainian]

what if everything you see and hear is a lie? Everything geared to get shepard to a place at a certain time with a certain mindset? We know the reapers are powerful. We know that they have the power to indoctrinate. Creating an illusion in the mind? Dont forget Harbinger controlled the collectors through the collector general. All those creatures controlled by one reaper. Now multiply that by thousands of reapers. He definately says (open to interpretation here) ''serve us'' or ''save us''. Sounds more like ''serve us'' to me. In which case Harbinger is taking control of shepard - just like Sovereign took control of saren.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

magnetite wrote...

Many people wondered after playing the EC why Harbinger just sits there and waits and doesn't blow the Normandy out of the sky when he had the chance. He's waiting for Shepard. I mean, people wonder why he had this obsession with Shepard in Mass Effect 2, that's it.

Followed by the supposed "serve us" thing he says. Many have claimed this is just Reaper talk, but why have him say anything at all. Why not just shoot Shepard with the laser? Arrival hints that he said "serve us".

Is it just me or did Harbinger fire his laser twice at the Normandy, but we never actually saw the laser? Heard the sound though.

Might be at other people running down the hill Harbinger is shooting at. 

But I stil think the Normandy scene isent real as Shepard and his squadmates are simply so out of character (not even mentioing Harbinger's lack of action). Javik is probably the best example, can you imagine him pulling out during the final battle? EDI also is in no danger following Shepard since her true body is the Normandy and not the EVA body.

And Shepard...Shepard led people on a litteral suicide mission, people who were his friends and possibly his loved one and he did so knowing full well none of them might make it out alive.

The stakes are a million times higher in the final rush than they were at the attack on the Collector base as failure means the end of the entire galaxy and this is the time Shepard decides to send away his squad?

The entire scene just dosent make any sense.

[dorktainian]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

magnetite wrote...

Many people wondered after playing the EC why Harbinger just sits there and waits and doesn't blow the Normandy out of the sky when he had the chance. He's waiting for Shepard. I mean, people wonder why he had this obsession with Shepard in Mass Effect 2, that's it.

Followed by the supposed "serve us" thing he says. Many have claimed this is just Reaper talk, but why have him say anything at all. Why not just shoot Shepard with the laser? Arrival hints that he said "serve us".

Is it just me or did Harbinger fire his laser twice at the Normandy, but we never actually saw the laser? Heard the sound though.

Might be at other people running down the hill Harbinger is shooting at. 

But I stil think the Normandy scene isnt real as Shepard and his squadmates are simply so out of character (not even mentioing Harbinger's lack of action). Javik is probably the best example, can you imagine him pulling out during the final battle? EDI also is in no danger following Shepard since her true body is the Normandy and not the EVA body.

And Shepard...Shepard led people on a litteral suicide mission, people who were his friends and possibly his loved one and he did so knowing full well none of them might make it out alive.

The stakes are a million times higher in the final rush than they were at the attack on the Collector base as failure means the end of the entire galaxy and this is the time Shepard decides to send away his squad?

The entire scene just dosent make any sense.

 they want him on his own.  

[BleedingUranium]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

magnetite wrote...

Many people wondered after playing the EC why Harbinger just sits there and waits and doesn't blow the Normandy out of the sky when he had the chance. He's waiting for Shepard. I mean, people wonder why he had this obsession with Shepard in Mass Effect 2, that's it.

Followed by the supposed "serve us" thing he says. Many have claimed this is just Reaper talk, but why have him say anything at all. Why not just shoot Shepard with the laser? Arrival hints that he said "serve us".

Is it just me or did Harbinger fire his laser twice at the Normandy, but we never actually saw the laser? Heard the sound though.

Might be at other people running down the hill Harbinger is shooting at. 

But I stil think the Normandy scene isent real as Shepard and his squadmates are simply so out of character (not even mentioing Harbinger's lack of action). Javik is probably the best example, can you imagine him pulling out during the final battle? EDI also is in no danger following Shepard since her true body is the Normandy and not the EVA body.

And Shepard...Shepard led people on a litteral suicide mission, people who were his friends and possibly his loved one and he did so knowing full well none of them might make it out alive.

The stakes are a million times higher in the final rush than they were at the attack on the Collector base as failure means the end of the entire galaxy and this is the time Shepard decides to send away his squad?

The entire scene just dosent make any sense.

I agree. Harbinger not attacking the Normandy could be because he wants to convince him to help the Reapers, and if he'd just blown up your ship (again) and killed all your loved ones, Shepard would be far less likely to buy into his crap. It's a moot point though, considering how surreal the rest of the scene is.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 29 novembre 2012 - 09:05 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

magnetite wrote...

Many people wondered after playing the EC why Harbinger just sits there and waits and doesn't blow the Normandy out of the sky when he had the chance. He's waiting for Shepard. I mean, people wonder why he had this obsession with Shepard in Mass Effect 2, that's it.

Followed by the supposed "serve us" thing he says. Many have claimed this is just Reaper talk, but why have him say anything at all. Why not just shoot Shepard with the laser? Arrival hints that he said "serve us".

Is it just me or did Harbinger fire his laser twice at the Normandy, but we never actually saw the laser? Heard the sound though.

Might be at other people running down the hill Harbinger is shooting at. 

But I stil think the Normandy scene isent real as Shepard and his squadmates are simply so out of character (not even mentioing Harbinger's lack of action). Javik is probably the best example, can you imagine him pulling out during the final battle? EDI also is in no danger following Shepard since her true body is the Normandy and not the EVA body.

And Shepard...Shepard led people on a litteral suicide mission, people who were his friends and possibly his loved one and he did so knowing full well none of them might make it out alive.

The stakes are a million times higher in the final rush than they were at the attack on the Collector base as failure means the end of the entire galaxy and this is the time Shepard decides to send away his squad?

The entire scene just dosent make any sense.

I agree. Harbinger not attacking the Normandy could be because he wants to convince him to help the Reapers, and if he'd just blown up your ship (again) and killed all your loved ones, Shepard would be far less likely to buy into his crap. It's a moot point though, considering how surreal the rest of the scene is.

Yeah and I just realized it is even more surreal in regards to Javik if you convinced hi to watch the memory shard. If he did that he announces his plans to lay himself to rest with his crew once the battle is over...

The guy announces he is going to commit suicide when the Reapers are defeated and then obeys Shepard when he tells them to get the **** out during the final run? Seems legit.

His reaction to Shepard telling him to pull out should have probably have been more akin to this: www.youtube.com/watch

Followed by the rest of Shepards squad leaping out the Normandy and Joker turning te ship around to fire upon Harbinger. That is what should have happened.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 29 novembre 2012 - 09:16 .

[Jusseb]

So when is this next DLC coming out?

[TheProtheans]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Except one of the soldiers DOES look at him (not that one particular soldier next to the door though). Pay attention and look at the details.

How can we pay attention to something you made up.

Modifié par TheProtheans, 29 novembre 2012 - 10:17 .

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Jusseb wrote...

So when is this next DLC coming out?

That's a good question, I'd tweet Michael "****tease" Gamble but I don't think he'd respond.

My best guess: anywhere from late-december (if not some MP DLC around this time) to early March for the launch date 1 year anniversary.


Nice big 4 months window of uncertainty

[gunslinger_ruiz]

TheProtheans wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Except one of the soldiers DOES look at him (not that one particular soldier next to the door though). Pay attention and look at the details.

How can we pay attention to something you made up.

It's more speculation on his part than made up. One of the alliance soldiers does turn his head briefly towards the shuttle, but is wearing a helmet so it's up to interpretation whether he's looking at the Child, the civilians behind the Child, or at the shuttle itself. He could even be glancing ahead of the shuttle checking for hostiles. Too much speculation to be conclusive.

Modifié par gunslinger_ruiz, 29 novembre 2012 - 10:18 .

[FFZero]

Jusseb wrote...

So when is this next DLC coming out?

The next one should be out soon-ish, probably late january/early february. It’s already in the testing stage by the sounds of things.

[TheProtheans]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Except one of the soldiers DOES look at him (not that one particular soldier next to the door though). Pay attention and look at the details.

How can we pay attention to something you made up.

It's more speculation on his part than made up. One of the alliance soldiers does turn his head briefly towards the shuttle, but is wearing a helmet so it's up to interpretation whether he's looking at the Child, the civilians behind the Child, or at the shuttle itself. He could even be glancing ahead of the shuttle checking for hostiles. Too much speculation to be conclusive.

It's made up to assume he is looking at the kid and not the shuttle getting ready to take off, that he was securing.
I say it more made up than speculative that he was staring at the child.
But you can disagree.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Except one of the soldiers DOES look at him (not that one particular soldier next to the door though). Pay attention and look at the details.

How can we pay attention to something you made up.

It's more speculation on his part than made up. One of the alliance soldiers does turn his head briefly towards the shuttle, but is wearing a helmet so it's up to interpretation whether he's looking at the Child, the civilians behind the Child, or at the shuttle itself. He could even be glancing ahead of the shuttle checking for hostiles. Too much speculation to be conclusive.

Eaxctly and even then it is very, very srtange not a single person in that shuttle including the sodier standing right at the door would not help the kid get inside.

[paxxton]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Jusseb wrote...

So when is this next DLC coming out?

That's a good question, I'd tweet Michael "****tease" Gamble but I don't think he'd respond.

My best guess: anywhere from late-december (if not some MP DLC around this time) to early March for the launch date 1 year anniversary.


Nice big 4 months window of uncertainty

I say in the time window between late January and early March.

[umadcommander]

magnetite wrote...

Many people wondered after playing the EC why Harbinger just sits there and waits and doesn't blow the Normandy out of the sky when he had the chance. He's waiting for Shepard. I mean, people wonder why he had this obsession with Shepard in Mass Effect 2, that's it.

Followed by the supposed "serve us" thing he says. Many have claimed this is just Reaper talk, but why have him say anything at all. Why not just shoot Shepard with the laser? Arrival hints that he said "serve us".

Is it just me or did Harbinger fire his laser twice at the Normandy? We never actually saw the laser. Heard the sound though.

harbinger dosent want shepard dead, the shockwave from a ship like the normandy that close to shepard wouldve killed him thats why harbinger dosent just blast it out of the sky

[gunslinger_ruiz]

TheProtheans wrote...


It's made up to assume he is looking at the kid and not the shuttle getting ready to take off, that he was securing.
I say it more made up than speculative that he was staring at the child.
But you can disagree.

I more than agree the soldier was just glancing at the shuttle, or something other than the Child. Too many suggestions and hints the Child might not be real. The way he vanishes from the vents when we see him, no soldier to glance at him there, and makes no sound as he seemingly moves faster than a scared animal in the space of a few seconds.

Cannot say "Well Bioware was lazy when they made that part," we know they have the data for sound of moving through vents from Liara's enouncter on Mars shortly after. Simple matter of putting a fraction of that sound as Shepard looks at Anderson, away from the Child.

[TheProtheans]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...


It's made up to assume he is looking at the kid and not the shuttle getting ready to take off, that he was securing.
I say it more made up than speculative that he was staring at the child.
But you can disagree.

I more than agree the soldier was just glancing at the shuttle, or something other than the Child. Too many suggestions and hints the Child might not be real. The way he vanishes from the vents when we see him, no soldier to glance at him there, and makes no sound as he seemingly moves faster than a scared animal in the space of a few seconds.

Cannot say "Well Bioware was lazy when they made that part," we know they have the data for sound of moving through vents from Liara's enouncter on Mars shortly after. Simple matter of putting a fraction of that sound as Shepard looks at Anderson, away from the Child.

Not least it is odd for him to rush off like that.
It is like in movies and shows where a mysterious character that sometimes has magical capabilities simply disappears without a sound in an instant when a character turns away for 1 second.
If I am to apply him to the same rules in the Mass effect universe, then I can only assume he is indeed not real and did not actually crawl away.

[burz]

In the refusal ending we get a different conversation between a woman and a child rather than the Buzz Aldrin one. In this refusal ending Liara's messages recounting the war with the Reapers are left and found by future generations. This time the child specifically says "And thats why we have peace." The Lady responds "Otherwise we too would have been threatened."

The main difference really seems to be that in the refusal, the people blatantly mention that there is peace and it is because of the "Archives". It would seem that here we have been successful, not in our own cycle, but successful in warding off the Reapers for future generations.

In the other endings the boy and Buzz talk about how there could be many stars, and many worlds that could have life. It seems odd that he wouldn't mention any specific species to the boy like Asari or Krogan. Buzz only tells of stories, not archives or hard facts like in the refusal's. Neither of them directly mention that there is peace. They seem to just be sharing a story, like they don't take the Reapers seriously, much like the Council did in ME1. Maybe this is the beginning of a new cycle rather than the beginning of peace.

This is my first post here and I have only read so many of these 2000+ pages so Im sure this has been discussed. I sought these forums out after seeing the IT documentaries on youtube. I am a fan of IT and think it makes a lot of sense, but then again I feel Bioware has sought to ignore it so who knows whats supposed to be real. It seems hard to believe the star child is a dream anymore when Leviathan legitimized him.

Before the EC dlc came, I was a firm Destroy guy, but now I kind of think Refusal is the only one that shows some ounce of success, at least for the future. Either way, I hope to join in on your guys' sometimes friendly discussions!

[burz]

I also think its funny that my join date is from April of 2010 but I couldnt even post here just now until I went through and did some synchronization to my xbox account.

[KyreneZA]

SwobyJ wrote...

The problem with Bioware games, especially recently, is that you don't know what's a bug and what's a potentially brilliant detail.

Yup. And that’s the reason for my own personal vacillation between IT and BI/WT. On most good days I think IT was the intent, but on the pessimistic and jaded days I think they just wanted our money...

[dorktainian]

**edited from rediculous wall of text**

IT.  Harbinger utters the now famous ‘’Serve us’’ and then it all goes to lala land. 

A gun with no ammunition that fires.  Shepards vision is blurred (oily shadows).  He can still fire his gun.  He can not see anyone else.  He is alone. That is the point.  The only reason harbinger wants Shepard alone is to indoctrinate him.  There can be no other aim.  He could have swatted him like a fly.  

Modifié par dorktainian, 29 novembre 2012 - 11:30 .

[MaximizedAction]

burz wrote...

In the refusal ending we get a different conversation between a woman and a child rather than the Buzz Aldrin one. In this refusal ending Liara's messages recounting the war with the Reapers are left and found by future generations. This time the child specifically says "And thats why we have peace." The Lady responds "Otherwise we too would have been threatened."

The main difference really seems to be that in the refusal, the people blatantly mention that there is peace and it is because of the "Archives". It would seem that here we have been successful, not in our own cycle, but successful in warding off the Reapers for future generations.

In the other endings the boy and Buzz talk about how there could be many stars, and many worlds that could have life. It seems odd that he wouldn't mention any specific species to the boy like Asari or Krogan. Buzz only tells of stories, not archives or hard facts like in the refusal's. Neither of them directly mention that there is peace. They seem to just be sharing a story, like they don't take the Reapers seriously, much like the Council did in ME1. Maybe this is the beginning of a new cycle rather than the beginning of peace.

This is my first post here and I have only read so many of these 2000+ pages so Im sure this has been discussed. I sought these forums out after seeing the IT documentaries on youtube. I am a fan of IT and think it makes a lot of sense, but then again I feel Bioware has sought to ignore it so who knows whats supposed to be real. It seems hard to believe the star child is a dream anymore when Leviathan legitimized him.

Before the EC dlc came, I was a firm Destroy guy, but now I kind of think Refusal is the only one that shows some ounce of success, at least for the future. Either way, I hope to join in on your guys' sometimes friendly discussions!

First of all welcome! :happy:

I'm not sure if I've seen this point of view on Refuse here -- although I might've missed or forgotten it...6000+ pages are a lot.
In any case, I find this very interesting. Using the EC version of the game, the fact that Buzz's version remained in its original version while adding a new and different one, implies that they are free for direct comparison.
Now, since Buzz' version is the same no matter if you kept the Reapers or destroyed them means that indeed one may ask why they don't mention them as it is done in the Refuse version?
And it does indeed seem like the Reapers aren't taken serious anymore in the Buzz version. Which is indeed odd if one compares it to the other version.

What might that mean? Of course, it could mean that they are representatives of Shepard's/the player's stance on the Reapers because in order to choose Refuse one has to explicitly work against what the Guardian/Reapers is offering you, and thus still work against the Reapers.
But then, this looks again like this scene isn't real: it represents Shepard's will, which I don't think has been projected on the galaxy with Shepard's choice at the end. Why? Because in the slides and cinematics we see that others like the soldiers, krogans or asari don't seem to happy if you chose Synthesis. Hence, they do not accept it as easily. Therefore I would indeed expect it to be mentioned at least in a post-Synthesis Stargazer scene, if it were real.
So if it only reflects Shepard's choice and not the situation in the situation of the galaxy, then we're back again to: he's hallucinating.


TL;DR: I agree that it's odd that the Reapers aren't mentioned in the Buzz Stargazer scene while they are in Refuse. And it can be explained with IT.

Regarding Leviathan, he didn't outright mention the Guardian, only an "intelligence" which might just as well be what later became Harbinger.

edit:
Then again, I might be a bit biased with regards to Refuse as it's somewhat my favorite ending. So naturally, this only fuels my enthusiasm.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 29 novembre 2012 - 11:37 .