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[The Heretic of Time]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

That said: Isn't it pretty much a fact that both atheism and non-ITism are the defaults?

Not necessarily a fact. Examples: I believe in Adam and Eve and they were very devout followers of God (minus the Fruit on Knowledge incident) & Bleeding Uraniun stated that he thought IT his first playthrough so to him IT is default since that was his first impression.

Well, you first have to be told about the IT or cook up the IT before you can believe in it. Same with theism. You can't be a theist if you've never heard of God. If we take "lack of belief in god(s)" as the defnition of atheism, than it's a fact that all babies are born atheists and only later in their life are they converted to theists.

But I only used atheism as an example for a label with an "a" prefixed to it. So lets stick to the IT discussion and lets not turn this into a religious debate. 

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 29 novembre 2012 - 04:17 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

paxxton wrote...

I'm replaying Virmire atm and something struck me so hard I could not wait with sharing it. The Mass Relay Technology has an inherent property. All mass relays send out indoctrination signal! I've gotten an irrefutable proof for that. While on the Citadel Kaidan mentions that the hum coming out of the minirelay makes his teeth tingle. We all know that a hum is a sign of indoctrination. What he says can be correlated with what Rana Thanoptis says about the indoctrination signal emitted by Sovereign. She says that it causes a tingle in the back of a victim's skull. The key word here is "tingle."

Yeah, IIRC most of us did pick up on the 'hum' comment by Kaidan and concluded it could be an indoctrination 'signal'. Good catch on the 'tingle'!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

That said: Isn't it pretty much a fact that both atheism and non-ITism are the defaults?

Not necessarily a fact. Examples: I believe in Adam and Eve and they were very devout followers of God (minus the Fruit on Knowledge incident) & Bleeding Uraniun stated that he thought IT his first playthrough so to him IT is default since that was his first impression.

Well, you first have to be told about the IT or cook up the IT before you can believe in it. Same with theism. You can't be a theist if you've never heard of God. If we take "lack of belief in god(s)" as the defnition of atheism, than it's a fact that all babies are born atheists and only later in their life are they converted to theists.

But I only used atheism as an example for a label with an "a" prefixed to it. So lets stick to the IT discussion and lets not turn this into a religious debate. 

Yes, lets. Sorry to debate that but I'm in the middle of doing my arguing a position essay so I'm in the mindset that you shouldn't say fact unless it's absolute and have data to back it up.

[RavenEyry]

I thought the tingle was just foreshadowing that it wasn't a statue. There are infrasounds that don't indoctrinate.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

RavenEyry wrote...

I thought the tingle was just foreshadowing that it wasn't a statue. There are infrasounds that don't indoctrinate.

exactly, and if it has a high EMF, and it's a Mass Relay so of couurse it does, then it will cause symptoms like indoctrination, like tingling and paranoia, without that actually happening. This would especially apply to biotics like Kaidan who are more attuned to EMFs.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 29 novembre 2012 - 04:23 .

[dreamgazer]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Is it? I think it's a matter of perspective.

You might see "bad writing" as an easy excuse for all the plotholes and weirdness going on in ME3.
But I see the IT as a cheap method of justifying all the plotholes and weirdness going on in ME3.


It goes both ways and it's just a matter of perspective and preferences I suppose.

Yes.  Cynicism is just a hell of a lot easier, and it's currently well-supported in certain areas of the BSN.  Not to mention that arriving at anything resembling an abstract or thought-out interpretation gets folks branded a "drone" or whatever else the cool, edgy kids are flinging around nowadays.

To me, there's a gray area of intended interpretation here that does, in fact, involve a portion of this theory, just not the overly-elaborate machine it's become.  And it boils down to something much less-elaborate and not all that intellectually brilliant, not to mention flawed in execution.

Gray areas, indeed. 

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

But I only used atheism as an example for a label with an "a" prefixed to it. So lets stick to the IT discussion and lets not turn this into a religious debate. 

An excellent piece of advice, one worth remembering.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 29 novembre 2012 - 04:29 .

[Andromidius]

I honestly think most of us here are cynics, otherwise we'd have never questioned the events in ME3.

Most people who dislike IT aren't cynics, they give a knee-jerk reaction and declare its stupid/headcanon/insane and then start using insults. They don't put in the required thought to qualify.

And a side note: we often get accused of being 'religious zealots', so we never started the analogy. Even though it fits disturbingly well with how other people act, and there are many religious undertones and overtones in ME3 (though thankfully they usually turn out to be 'you were deceived' rather then as being any real religious message from the Devs).

[ElSuperGecko]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
Is it? I think it's a matter of perspective.

You might see "bad writing" as an easy excuse for all the plotholes and weirdness going on in ME3.
But I see the IT as a cheap method of justifying all the plotholes and weirdness going on in ME3.

It goes both ways and it's just a matter of perspective and preferences I suppose.

Sorry Hanar, but explaining away "all the plotholes and weirdness" in Mass Effect 3 with cynicism is a cop-out.  The "bad writing" argument is a cop out. 

Bioware have created an incredibly rich and diverse universe with the Mass Effect series, and the vast majority of the writing throughout the series has been exceptional, at least in video gaming terms.  When taken as a whole, Mass Effect 3 is a well crafter, well written game.

Bioware are telling a story with Mass Effect 3 - one that's designed to be open to interpretation.  What you see as plotholes and weirdness, others see as intentional clues and hints at a bigger picture from the writers.  I'm not saying that Bioware are above making mistakes, but if someone chooses to define anything and everything ambiguous within the game as "bad writing", then they're clearly missing something.

It's like the old military saying.

"Once is bad luck.  Twice is coincidence.  Three times is enemy action."

When you're talking about a developer as capable, as respected and with as impressive a history as Bioware, at some point, it stops being "bad writing" and starts being deliberate.  ME3 isn't a straightforward story.  They intended or us to think about the game, discuss and debate it.  They intended to give us things that didn't quite add up.  To make us suspicious.  It's up to us to try and put it all into context and make some sense of it.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 29 novembre 2012 - 04:44 .

[spotlessvoid]

You can't compare religion to literary interpretation. That's just dumb.

[archangel1996]

I don't know if this was already said, but someone else thinks that the EMS is Shepard's will? In fact If i let TIM(the Reapers) kill Anderson(Shepard's conscience) i need more EMS, maybe to replace it
If i have low EMS i have just the Destroy ending, that kills everyone in the Earth, if i have high EMS the Catalyst needs something to distract Shep
EMS=Will of Shepard to fight the Reapers

[RavenEyry]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

"Once is bad luck.  Twice is coincidence.  Three times is enemy action."

There's also a Sherlock Holmes quote along the lines of "How many coincidences does it take to make a pattern?"

Though I'm not gonna join in trying to get Hanar to change his opinion because it's pointless and kinda mean.

[RavenEyry]

archangel1996 wrote...

I don't know if this was already said, but someone else thinks that the EMS is Shepard's will? In fact If i let TIM(the Reapers) kill Anderson(Shepard's conscience) i need more EMS, maybe to replace it
If i have low EMS i have just the Destroy ending, that kills everyone in the Earth, if i have high EMS the Catalyst needs something to distract Shep
EMS=Will of Shepard to fight the Reapers

That's the general opinion on EMS in IT yes. Note with very low EMS Mr. Sparkle opens with 'Why are you here?" as if surprised you made it that far.

[Restrider]

archangel1996 wrote...

I don't know if this was already said, but someone else thinks that the EMS is Shepard's will? In fact If i let TIM(the Reapers) kill Anderson(Shepard's conscience) i need more EMS, maybe to replace it

A thing that is vastly ignored and actually is a thing that is a strong supporting point for the ending of ME3 being not what it seems.
Why should it make a difference of 1000 EMS (afaik) if Anderson dies by the hand of TIM or a few minutes later after having a last conversation with Shepard?
That makes no sense in a literal POV. And you cannot explain it with "Bad Writing" since this was obviously a deliberate choice to implement this.
I guess I'll have to add this point to the Top Ten list in the Anderson&TIM section when I'll do my upgrade to that list in a few days.

[RavenEyry]

Restrider wrote...

Why should it make a difference of 1000 EMS (afaik) if Anderson dies by the hand of TIM or a few minutes later after having a last conversation with Shepard?
That makes no sense in a literal POV. And you cannot explain it with "Bad Writing" since this was obviously a deliberate choice to implement this.

Especially as it only applies to the breath scene which was oficially only added as a 'fun little easter egg'.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

RavenEyry wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

"Once is bad luck.  Twice is coincidence.  Three times is enemy action."

There's also a Sherlock Holmes quote along the lines of "How many coincidences does it take to make a pattern?"

"There is no coincidence, only inevitability." -Yuko Ichihara from xxxholic

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 29 novembre 2012 - 05:07 .

[spotlessvoid]

Bioware: Intended to have Shepard get indoctrinated but couldn't implement player losing control along dialogue wheel as of late November 2012.

Must have changed entire narrative because of game mechanic 3 months before going gold. Never intended for Shepard to get indoctrinated, not smart enough to come up with it. Bad writing.

[RavenEyry]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Bioware: Intended to have Shepard get indoctrinated but couldn't implement player losing control along dialogue wheel as of late November 2012.

Must have changed entire narrative because of game mechanic 3 months before going gold. Never intended for Shepard to get indoctrinated, not smart enough to come up with it. Bad writing.

That may have just been a reference to TIM's magic powers but it's still fishy.

And it's not the only fishy final hours thing. There's that reference to the end of the first matrix. Y'know, that film that ends with the main character proving the world isn't real to a bunch of onlookers.

There's also the way it manages to not say much about the making of the ending despite that being the central topic.
Bioware: so secretive that a tell-all documentary doesn't tell all.

[CmdrShep80]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I'm replaying Virmire atm and something struck me so hard I could not wait with sharing it. The Mass Relay Technology has an inherent property. All mass relays send out indoctrination signal! I've gotten an irrefutable proof for that. While on the Citadel Kaidan mentions that the hum coming out of the minirelay makes his teeth tingle. We all know that a hum is a sign of indoctrination. What he says can be correlated with what Rana Thanoptis says about the indoctrination signal emitted by Sovereign. She says that it cause a tingle in the back of a victim's skull. The key word here is "tingle."

Hate to tell you this, but all technology hums when it is active (it only appears off because the Ilos side is out of power) and if it has a high enough EMF, it can cause sensations like teeth tingling or symptoms similar to indoctrination, like paranoia. if Mass Relays were capable of indoctrinating, then the harvests would be even easier since everyone who uses Mass Relays would be indoctrinated.

and who created mass relays?  The reapers.  What you said actually would help them advance their agenda and not kill the poor indoctrinated people.  The codex again says that small subtle suggestions is better to keep the person alive than a quick and dirty takeover. If you do that the person becomes a vegetable and becomes useless. 
By the way the IIlos side was never meant to connect to the citadel relay. The Protheans either took a standing relay on Illos and made it redirect to the citadel or hand built a relay then force connected to the citadel. They couldn't have done this in any way at the citadel because they were doing all this in the middle of their cycle's reaper harvest.  They went to the citadel after all the reapers went back to dark space
Also we've never actually stood next to a relay. The only relay we've ever stood next to for extended periods of time is the citadel. All the others we fly through via ships.

[spotlessvoid]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Are you guys arguing this from a literal perspective? Because then I'd agree, but what you're saying doesn't apply to IT.

Yeah I was saying how literal refuse makes no sense as an option and Raistlin was pointing out how literal destroy is also baffling.

And this is without getting into the effects once it's chosen.

How is literal destroy baffling?

AI created to prevent synthetics from killing organics, also says itself that its purpose is to preserve all Organic and Synthetic species...offers you choice to destroy all synthetics including all the supposedly preserved races...but makes sure to point out that it will not end the cycle in any way and the nightmare will come again.

In short not only is it allowing something to happen which will go against its core programming (since the cycle of Synthetics killing organics will not end) but also something which will destroy every single one of the species its cliams it is its purpose to preserve.

The current solution doesn't work anymore, but it can't stop the Cycle on its own.

AI: Harvested Leviathan, made Harbinger, started cycles, created relay technology, built Citadel, collective intelligence of the Reapers.

AI: Needs your help to stop the cycles. Gives you two minutes to decide because can't control the Reapers (but Shepard can)

[MaximizedAction]

RavenEyry wrote...
...

There's also the way it manages to not say much about the making of the ending despite that being the central topic.
Bioware: so secretive that a tell-all documentary doesn't tell all.

No one knows.

There is no single decent >5 min documentary out there with interviews about making the game that goes beyond the pre-release teaser vids stuff.
I wrote it before and I write it again, it still is as if the main game is yet to be released, so that details remain a-missing.

[spotlessvoid]

RavenEyry wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Bioware: Intended to have Shepard get indoctrinated but couldn't implement player losing control along dialogue wheel as of late November 2012.

Must have changed entire narrative because of game mechanic 3 months before going gold. Never intended for Shepard to get indoctrinated, not smart enough to come up with it. Bad writing.

That may have just been a reference to TIM's magic powers but it's still fishy.

And it's not the only fishy final hours thing. There's that reference to the end of the first matrix. Y'know, that film that ends with the main character proving the world isn't real to a bunch of onlookers.

There's also the way it manages to not say much about the making of the ending despite that being the central topic.
Bioware: so secretive that a tell-all documentary doesn't tell all.

You mean the game mechanic where Shepard loses control but can use the dialogue wheel? If that's all it was, then they did implement what they didn't implement...

[CmdrShep80]

How the codex puts indoctrination:

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months

[CmdrShep80]

Here's something on why Harbinger can't miss:

Reaper Capabilities codex:


The main gun on a Reaper capital ship dwarfs that of the Alliance's Everest-class dreadnoughts. No dreadnought has yet survived a direct hit from the weapon. Estimates put its destructive power anywhere from 132 to 454 kilotons of TNT. Even if the target is hardened, as in the case of a surface-based missile silo, the gun can instead bury the target beneath molten metal. Precise targeting computers and correctors also give the Reaper weapons a longer effective range than organics' dreadnoughts or cruisers.

[CmdrShep80]

The reason Reapers need indoctrination is because the literal harvest itself takes decades or centuries so they:

From the harvest codex:
Victims who cooperate, surrender, or are captured by husks are sorted into camps. It is believed the husks possess receptors that allow them to analyze a victim's DNA through sight, smell, or touch. Victims that meet their standards are herded from the camps into processor ships. Those the husks deem insufficient are either turned into husks themselves or indoctrinated to serve as slave labor. The Reapers use this last option to give their victims false hope -- many captives who would otherwise fight back become docile when they see members of their own kind obey and survive.

[Vakarian-Fever]

I definately subscribe to the Indoctrination theory from what little I have seen (you don't even need to see much for it to make sense). I never read too much into it for fear of running into spoilers from the first game. I'm a ps3 gamer so I have never played the first one yet. I was wondering if someone would be so kind as to explain it to me in more detail sans the spoilers please! I rarely check this site so email me on reasontolive@hotmail.co.uk or send me a message at my psn account nameless-account. Hopefully it will help me with my fan fic.