80611 réponses à ce sujet

[dorktainian]

hehe fun here init?

[demersel]

Hello everyone! What's new? Been out of the forums for a few days, while playing Omega.

[RavenEyry]

demersel wrote...

Hello everyone! What's new? Been out of the forums for a few days, while playing Omega.

People are trying to get Hanar to change his opinion for some reason.

Oh wait, that's not new...

[GethPrimeMKII]

RavenEyry wrote...

Fighting dickishness with dickishness is not the answer.

Doing our best to treat him with respect doesnt seem to be working very well either. 

Ill be nice to Hanar when he stops ....

-ramming his opinions down peoples' throats
-blathering on and on about bad writting.
-calling us zealots, conspiracy nuts, lunatics, or whatever crap he feels like flinging that day
-insulting people who disagree with him
-provoking people

Theres more, but I dont feel like typing on my thumbs all day. Lets face facts. Hanar is never going to stop being a troll. Lets stop pretending hes anything but. Sometimes its ok to fight fire with fire, and be a jerk to a jerk. 

Its just a shame to see a good discussion derailed because this idiot decides to fill us in on what he things of ME3's writting for the 1000th time. 

[archangel1996]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Restrider wrote...

@Hanar:
What are your thoughts on the difference in EMS (as far as I know 1000EMS) when Anderson is not shot to death by TIM and has the last conversation with Shepard, to the scene where TIM shoots Anderson?

Never really thought about it. I've always seen it as just a game-mechanic not really related to the story. I never really thought about why it is that your EMS effectively lowers with 1000 points when Anderson is shot by TIM. I'll give it some thought and see what my opinion is on this.

EMS=Shepard's will
If Shep let the Reapers kill his/her coscience he/she has to replace it

Modifié par archangel1996, 29 novembre 2012 - 07:48 .

[Restrider]

I really want to know your opinion (and those of the other literalists around):

Restrider wrote...

@Hanar:
What are your thoughts on the difference in EMS (as far as I know 1000EMS) when Anderson is not shot to death by TIM and has the last conversation with Shepard, to the scene where TIM shoots Anderson?

EDIT : I've just seen the respond at the top of the page...

Modifié par Restrider, 29 novembre 2012 - 07:50 .

[GethPrimeMKII]

demersel wrote...

Hello everyone! What's new? Been out of the forums for a few days, while playing Omega.

did you enjoy it?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Restrider wrote...

I really want to know your opinion (and those of the other literalists around):

Restrider wrote...

@Hanar:
What are your thoughts on the difference in EMS (as far as I know 1000EMS) when Anderson is not shot to death by TIM and has the last conversation with Shepard, to the scene where TIM shoots Anderson?

To be quite honest with you, Restrider, I never put a second thought into except that it was punishment for letting TIM kill Anderson two minutes before he would anyway. I guess I never thought about it because I disagree with the Destroy option entirely so whether the breath scene would occur or not never mattered to me since I don't choose that option.

[Restrider]

archangel1996 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Restrider wrote...

@Hanar:
What are your thoughts on the difference in EMS (as far as I know 1000EMS) when Anderson is not shot to death by TIM and has the last conversation with Shepard, to the scene where TIM shoots Anderson?

Never really thought about it. I've always seen it as just a game-mechanic not really related to the story. I never really thought about why it is that your EMS effectively lowers with 1000 points when Anderson is shot by TIM. I'll give it some thought and see what my opinion is on this.

EMS=Shepard's will
If Shep let the Reapers kill his/her coscience he/she has to replace it

Yes, that's what I and most IT-ers think. The fun part is that this is a very powerful supporting hint at IT because:
1. It is consistent with IT.
2. It is save to say that it is not an oversight/glitch/reused assets (a lot of other things used as hints for IT could be easily one of those things).
3. It makes no sense in a literal POV (unless someone comes up with a good reason).

[The Heretic of Time]

dorktainian wrote...

1. A gun with limitless ammo.
2. Oily shadows in sheps dreams.
3. The hum on board the normandy that vega hears.
4. The whole idea of constructing the crudible is just unbelievable.
5. Oily shadows when Shep confronts TIM.
6. The worst villain in the history of video gaming.... Kai Leng.
7. Cerberus....and moar cerberus.........and moar cerberus.....
8. Hackett is clearly indoctrinated.
9. Control & Synthesis are aborrent.
10. if indoctrination theory is false, then the ending is truly the worst ending of any game ever in the history of video gaming..... even after the EC.

1. Again; Gameplay and story segregation. Look it up. Just try to imagine that your ammo can actually run out in the final struggle to the beam, and you'll have to actually search for clips while your Shepard is slow as f*ck and husks are actually running towards you. Not exactly what I'd call fun gameplay, right? Well, there you go, there is your answer to your "unlimited ammo" question.

2. The Oily Shadows look like people. They have the voices of the peopple that died in your gameplay. Everytime when someone died Shepard has this dream and a bunch of extra shadows are added with the voice of the deceased person. It's Shepards mind dealing with the losses he had to witness.

3. It's just a hum. Lots of stuff hums. My PC hums right here right now while I'm typing this.

4. It's a stupid plot device and crappy storytelling indeed.

5.Those "oily shadows" are caused by TIMs new (mind)control powers from his new reaper implants.

6. Agreed. Kai Leng sucks balls.

7. Jep, Cerberus has build quite the Sith Empire in the few weeks Shepard was on earth. Rather stupid if you ask me. Not very convincing storytelling.

8. Is he? And what makes you believe that?

9. That's just your opinion. I love the Control ending. God Emperor Shepard for the win!

10. Just your opinion. I disagree. It's a bad ending, but the EC made it a lot less bad. And I've seen worse, MUCH WORSE endings i other games. ME3 does not even make my personal top 5 worst video-game endings.

[401 Kill]

Only a matter of time before Mark IV will be initiated!

[Restrider]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Restrider wrote...

I really want to know your opinion (and those of the other literalists around):

Restrider wrote...

@Hanar:
What are your thoughts on the difference in EMS (as far as I know 1000EMS) when Anderson is not shot to death by TIM and has the last conversation with Shepard, to the scene where TIM shoots Anderson?

To be quite honest with you, Restrider, I never put a second thought into except that it was punishment for letting TIM kill Anderson two minutes before he would anyway. I guess I never thought about it because I disagree with the Destroy option entirely so whether the breath scene would occur or not never mattered to me since I don't choose that option.

Ignore for a moment that most ITers support Destroy. Just look at this one mechanic that lowers your EMS significantly in a situation where you already have all the assets (as far as I know you cannot gather any assets after entering the Sol system, or am I mistaken?). And letting Anderson get killed by TIM is punishment enough for you as the player, do you really think BW would have to use some abstract number to punish you, especially since this mechanic is something that is not really obvious. Hell, I am in this thread a few months now and I have noticed this thing recently.

[Restrider]

Hell, I myself am trying to explain that Anderson-1000-EMS stuff myself.
I could explain it for Synthesis and Control, since a Shepard with a shatterd psych due to seeing his mentor being executed could mean that his "essence" in Synthesis and Control is tainted and you would actually need more EMS for these endings.
BUT since this does not change the required EMS for Synthesis and Control exclusively, but also for Destroy it is just not logical in a literal POV.
It makes no sense and is obviously put there intentional!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Restrider wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Restrider wrote...

I really want to know your opinion (and those of the other literalists around):

Restrider wrote...

@Hanar:
What are your thoughts on the difference in EMS (as far as I know 1000EMS) when Anderson is not shot to death by TIM and has the last conversation with Shepard, to the scene where TIM shoots Anderson?

To be quite honest with you, Restrider, I never put a second thought into except that it was punishment for letting TIM kill Anderson two minutes before he would anyway. I guess I never thought about it because I disagree with the Destroy option entirely so whether the breath scene would occur or not never mattered to me since I don't choose that option.

Ignore for a moment that most ITers support Destroy. Just look at this one mechanic that lowers your EMS significantly in a situation where you already have all the assets (as far as I know you cannot gather any assets after entering the Sol system, or am I mistaken?). And letting Anderson get killed by TIM is punishment enough for you as the player, do you really think BW would have to use some abstract number to punish you, especially since this mechanic is something that is not really obvious. Hell, I am in this thread a few months now and I have noticed this thing recently.

Well, technically it raised the breath scene requirement from 4000 EMS to 5000 EMs, according to the stradegy guide, so it doesn't lower anything. You're right, the last War Asset is the Reaper Heart/Brain. As for the rest, I will admit I don't have the answer. But again, I can never choose Destroy (tried it twice, hated it both times) because I simply don't agree with what it represents.

[demersel]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

did you enjoy it?

You know, I really did! Found lots of stuff relevant to IT. 

[The Heretic of Time]

I was just thinking:


If BioWare wanted to include a "Shepard is being indoctrinated" plottwist in ME3 they could have done so easily in several ways. There are some examples from other games and my opinion on how it could have been used in ME3:


1) BioShock:
"Would you kindly?" Fantastic! I loved the twist at the end of the game where we discovered we've been controlled by someone else the entire time! Great job. Great plottwist. Awesomely done. This is how BioWare could have implemented indoctrination in ME3. This could have been done if Shepard was still working for Cerberus and TIM. TIM would be the person that influences Shepard with something similar as "would you kindly". The game would give us the feeling that we are doing what we want, but in reality we're being heavily manipulated by TIM. Would have been an awesome plot twist.

2) Assassin's Creed 3:
The plot-twist with Haytham Kenway. The game did a great job at giving us the impression that we were playing with a hero doing the right thing, only to find out that we've been controlling the antagonist of the game all along! Everything we did as Haytham was actually bad! And now we have to fix it as his son Connor, who is the real good-guy in Assassin's Creed 3.
ME3 could have done something similar with Shepard, but I think people would be pissed off if halfway through the game their Shepard would turn out to be a villain because of indoctrination. We love our Shepards and we don't want him to become an antagonist.
Still, BioWare could have given us the illusion what we were doing the right thing, only to find out were are actually f*cking things up. Then halfway through the game, after we discover we have been indoctrinated, we get the opportunity to break free and fix the mess we created during the first half of the game. It would have been quite awesome.

[ElSuperGecko]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
Bad writing is not more or less of a cop-out than the IT is.

No.

IT is an open, ongoing and developing discussion of the endings combined with the story, the lore and the background of the Mass Effect series.

The "bad writting" argument is simply writing the story off.  It's a cop-out, and a pretty ignorant and snobbish one at that.

Hahahahahaha.  No, just no. I do NOT agree with this at all! .... **snip** ...Alas, enough about this. I could go on like this forever, but I think I made my point rather clear. Lets continue with the rest of your post.

Everything in that rather elongated diatribe is you opinion and therefore subjective.  You're free of course to have that opinion, and believe it, just so long as you understand that it IS simply an opinion, one that's not shared by everyone and you don't try to pass it off as fact.  Because that would be ignorant.

There is a fine line between ambiguous writing or just plain nonsense. I've read a lot of literature and I've played a lot of games with ambiguous plots. Mass Effect has never been an ambiguous series. It was always pretty damn straight-forward. Mass Effect is not the new H.P. Lovecraft of the 21st century, no, Mass Effect is more like the 21st century version of Star Wars. It's simple, straigh-forward pulp entertainment.

I'm sure you have read a lot of books and played a lot of games.  So have I.  Not many games have left me thinking and held my interest as long as the Mass Effect series has, however.  True, ME1 and ME2 (especially) had fairly straightforward stories, however the implementation of the "choice" mechanic and the attempt by Bioware to carry consequences across from one game to the next lads to some very ambiguous decisions for the player.

This is by the by of course, because again what you have written is once again only your opinion, and by no means an etablished fact.

BioWare did a perfect job at creating individual stories, but it's clear that the Mass Effect project was too ambitious for them. They planned out this trilogy very poorly, and this is not just speculation, there are plenty of facts that prove the Mass Effect trilogy could have been planned better. One only has to look at the suicide mission of ME2. BioWare basically wrote themselves into a corner with ME2. They openly admitted that in an interview during the development of ME3. It's the reason why so many ME2 squad members are reduced to simple cameos in ME3. BioWare didn't have a choice. They had to do it this way because they wrote themselves in a corner with ME2.

You know, hindsight is a wonderful, wonderful thing.  I'm sure Bioware will readily admit that there are things they could have done better throughout the trilogy.  However, that doesn't instantly make it all "bad writing".  Bioware attempted to do something innovative with the Mass Effect series, and for the most part it worked very well.  They have produced a killer app franchise, with three outstanding, award winning, best-selling games set an immersive, extensive universe which they created from scratch.  Note that this isn't opinion, this is fact.  They may not have got everything perfect, but there is MUCH more good than bad in the series.

This is just one example of BioWares poor planning capablities for this trilogy. And then there is the fact that their lead writer Drew left the party halfway the trilogy. Switching writers halfway a story is never a good idea. It is clear Mac Walters tried to take Mass Effect into a new direction when he got the job as new lead writer and I didn't like it one single bit. 

So now you're saying your opinion is also clouded by bias.  The change in writing staff was unfortunate of course, but without knowing everything that went on behind the scenes, what leaqves you in a position to judge?  There are a lot of very creative people working on the Mass Effect series.  Put a lot of creative people together on a long-term project and chances are there will always be differences of opinion and changes of direction along the way.

Hell, even keeping the same writer all the way through isn't a gurantee against an original vision being lost, distorted or changed along the way.  Look at Stephen King's Dark Tower series.  By the time the final book came around, it was clear that King just wanted the series finished more than anything else.  Or take Lost for that matter, the story for which became the subject of an incredible amount of punchlines during it's run.  But as disappointed as some of the fans were by the way both series turned out, they're still incredible pieces of work.

Nonsense. ME3 is not ambiguous in the slightest bit until the ending madness. Up until that point it is pretty damn straight forward and sometimes even rather shallow and black-n-white.

Opinion. 

Cerberus turned into a cliché evil Sith Empire, TIM became a moustache-twirling cliché villain and eventually ended up being a Saren 2.0, how original and ambiguous! NOT! No, it's actually rather shallow and pathetic if you ask me.

 
Opinion.

And then there is the Crucible, the biggest McGuffin ass-pull if I ever saw one. I'm okay with McGuffins (the one ring in LOTR is also a McGuffin), but the Crucible was just a big dumb ass-pull, nothing more. It literally came out of nowhere and during the entire game we have not even a clue what the damn thing is supposed to do! I think I'll declare the Crucible as the new king of the McGuffin ass-pulls.

Opinion, opinion, opinion.  Passed off as fact.

Look, it's fairly obvious you were disappointed with the way the Mass Effect series panned out.  It's obvious you didn't enjoy the endings, and it's obvious that you have many reasons for this disechantment.  But at the end of the day, your opinion is just one opinion.  And an opinion - especially a biased one - is not a foundation for a convincing argument.

[MaximizedAction]

SwobyJ wrote...
Random idea of expansion/ME4:

Synthesis --> Completely indoctrinated Shepard, enemy
Control --> Mostly indoctrinated and struggling Shepard, enemy?
Destroy --> Partially indoctrinated but actively fighting it, Shepard, protagonist?
Refuse --> Shepard dies, but dies free, new protagonist?
New ME4/expansion file --> New protagonist

Although awesome, I sadly doubt this is practically possible for a professional developer to accomplish these days, under the everlasting burning eye of the publisher, metaphorically watching over the developer's collective shoulder expecting datelines to be fulfilled...

401 Kill wrote...
Only a matter of time before Mark IV will be initiated!

Somehow this reminds me of that Watchmen scene, "Only a matter of time I suppose."

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 29 novembre 2012 - 08:09 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Restrider wrote...

Hell, I myself am trying to explain that Anderson-1000-EMS stuff myself.
I could explain it for Synthesis and Control, since a Shepard with a shatterd psych due to seeing his mentor being executed could mean that his "essence" in Synthesis and Control is tainted and you would actually need more EMS for these endings.
BUT since this does not change the required EMS for Synthesis and Control exclusively, but also for Destroy it is just not logical in a literal POV.
It makes no sense and is obviously put there intentional!

Well actually the death of Anderson only raises the EMS requierment for the breath scene. It doesn't make a difference for any other ending. The Control, Synthesis and Refuse endings are always the same regardless of what you do with Anderson. It's only the High EMS Destroy endings that needs an even higher EMS if you killed Anderson.

[dreamgazer]

SwobyJ wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

This is thread is hopelessly naive sometimes. This guy is constantly belittling IT and it's supporters. He openly mocks you, even telling you he is, and yet many of you stick up for him. He makes a point of disagreeing with almost everything, going on and on about bad writing. He flames almost daily with tired old insults like comparing IT to a religion or implying that anyone who believes IT is cooking up some fantasy etc. He's openly trolled this thread on numerous occasions and is continuing to do so. That fact that he sees IT as stupid fanfic and it's supporters as fanatic and deluded oozes out of his posts constantly. His arguments rarely have any merit and he is intentionally inflammatory. He admits to being here to laugh at you. Yet many defend him. Go figure

Meh. Showing that someone gets under your skin is the exact opposite way of getting rid of someone like that. It's one of the few pillars of human interaction that translates to Internet communication. Yep, there are those who get enjoyment out of this sort of thing, and they get a charge out of repeating those messages for their peers to ridicule. Best you can do is stick to the content and make sure not to shut out legitimate voices of opposition.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

SwobyJ wrote...
Random idea of expansion/ME4:

Synthesis --> Completely indoctrinated Shepard, enemy
Control --> Mostly indoctrinated and struggling Shepard, enemy?
Destroy --> Partially indoctrinated but actively fighting it, Shepard, protagonist?
Refuse --> Shepard dies, but dies free, new protagonist?
New ME4/expansion file --> New protagonist

 I doubt that this will come to fruition for two reasons:
1) ME3 is Shepard's story so they wouldn't introduce a new protaggonist for the ME3 expansion
2) ME3 is the end of Shepard's story, so Shepard will not appear as the antagonist for ME4 because then Shepard's story wasn't over in ME3.

[smokingotter1]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Updated the OP of my thread with a ton of examples of what I mean. =)

It is also my belief in the end the decision chamber being an overlay of reality in "destroy ending" as Shepard is shooting the "tube" he is in reality showing he still is resisting. The explosion is from the blast of Harbinger's laser. Look at the pic above. see that black effect during the explosion, same effect used when a reaper laser hits the ground.

Also in EC writers emphasied that Harbinger's blast is coming from the right, the same path you go to for destroy...

Also I think you're right, ME4 will continue the story, no strong resolution in ME3 I'm starting to think. Also starting to think everything that happens after Harbinger blasts you actually takes place in a millisecond in Shepard's mind which is kind of trippy.

Also top! Where I belong

Modifié par smokingotter1, 29 novembre 2012 - 08:17 .

[Andromidius]

demersel wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

did you enjoy it?

You know, I really did! Found lots of stuff relevant to IT. 

Please share!  I didn't find much myself, most reinforcement of themes.