Ce sujet est fermé
Replaying omega again. The scene in the reactor where Aria and Nyreen are trapped is simply brilliant. Its my favorite scene in the dlc by far.
Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!
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byne
, juil. 30 2012 07:09
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#55302
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 06:05
demersel
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GethPrimeMKII wrote...
Replaying omega again. The scene in the reactor where Aria and Nyreen are trapped is simply brilliant. Its my favorite scene in the dlc by far.
What did you do?
#55303
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 06:06
demersel
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DoomsdayDevice wrote...
Soldier: But converting other life forms into Reapers... I can't wrap my head around that.
Garrus: Makes sense to me. It ensures you never run out of cannon fodder. Eliminates any local resistance. And for every soldier you add, your enemy loses two: the one you converted, and his buddy on the other side who can't pull the trigger on a friend. (...)
Soldier: But the Reapers want to destroy us.
Garrus: And I have no intention of letting them. But If you don't respect your enemy's capabilities, you're in for one nasty surprise after another. [/i]
THat is the speach i mention yesterday - the one where Garrus sounds exactly like Illusive man.
#55304
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 06:07
DoomsdayDevice
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smokingotter1 wrote...
masster blaster wrote...
To add on to my last post.
The catalyst took the form of the child why?
Why did he?
The writers wrote the child on Earth as " you can't help me"/ not needing any help. The catalyst takes the form of the child that doesn't need help. Bioware knew that the kid on Earth was symbolic in a sense. The reason could be why they pick the Catalyst to take the form of the child is because the Catalyst does't need help.
In other words. Catalyst does not need Shepard's help. Almost everything he is telling you is a lie. What I mean is the epilogues are an illusion to keep Shepard in la la land, and either bleed out in Destroy or refuse, or become Indoctrinated in Control, and Synthesis.
However because Shepard stuck with Destroying the Reapers, which was the point, he/she wakes up do to the will power, and readiness we prepared Shepard.
Regarding your two posts there are two things happening.
When the child says "you can't help me" it could be symbolic of the reapers saying "you're not indoctrinated yet." Only at the very end is Shepard's mind ready to "help." Until Shepard is indoctrinated he's not useful yet to the reapers.
Also the child form is symbolic of the reapers new and growing influence. Get it? Also as indoctrination takes place the reapers will look more innocent and nice.
Also top
The child says "you can't help me", because it's symbolism to make you feel guilty about the ones you couldn't save.
In the dreams, you hear voices of dead companions, and you're chasing a child who, no matter how hard you try to help him, will always burn in the end.
All of this is preparing you for the ending, where Starbinger is trying to sway you from the option that is least favourable to him by telling you your friends will die.
What's the number one reason non-destroyers pick their endings? There you go.
The Reapers prey upon the human weakness of wanting to save everyone.
The key is understanding that you can't always win and save everyone at the same time. As a military leader, sometimes you need to make the hard choices and sacrifice the few to save the many.
Garrus: "If just one survivor is left standing at the end of the war, then the fight was worth it. But humans want to save everyone. In this war, that's not going to happen."
Shiala: (on Benezia) "She always sought the paths of peace and harmony. She joined with Saren because she hoped to turn him away from his path of destruction."
Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 30 novembre 2012 - 06:09 .
#55305
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 06:12
spotlessvoid
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I was driving to a friends last night and Blue Oyster Cult came on. I thought you guys are totally indoctrinated
#55307
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 06:18
smokingotter1
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DoomsdayDevice wrote...
Don't fear the Reaper!
#55309
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 06:23
Raistlin Majare 1992
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Working on a compilation of why the Catalyst in the litteral sense is a lying bastard who goes against his own core programming. Expect it in 30 min - 1 hour.
#55310
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 06:24
dorktainian
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excellent.Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
Working on a compilation of why the Catalyst in the litteral sense is a lying bastard who goes against his own core programming. Expect it in 30 min - 1 hour.
#55311
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 06:47
GethPrimeMKII
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The first time I played through it I was so close to hitting the button. But then I realized how closely this scene mirrored the decision chamber. So I didnt press the button.demersel wrote...
GethPrimeMKII wrote...
Replaying omega again. The scene in the reactor where Aria and Nyreen are trapped is simply brilliant. Its my favorite scene in the dlc by far.
What did you do?
#55312
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 07:00
demersel
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GethPrimeMKII wrote...
The first time I played through it I was so close to hitting the button. But then I realized how closely this scene mirrored the decision chamber. So I didnt press the button.
But not pushing the button would be closer to refuse than to destroy, no? (i didn't push the button)
#55313
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 07:03
Raistlin Majare 1992
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demersel wrote...
GethPrimeMKII wrote...
The first time I played through it I was so close to hitting the button. But then I realized how closely this scene mirrored the decision chamber. So I didnt press the button.
But not pushing the button would be closer to refuse than to destroy, no? (i didn't push the button)
No, not pressing the button is either done because you trust Aria and Nyreen can survive despite what you hear or because you are willing to sacrifice the few (Aria and Nyreen) (Geth and EDI) for the many (Thosuands of civilians) (the entire galaxy). It is not so much refusing to press it as it is making a choice to not press it, to not sacrifice the many.
Almost done, wall of text incomming within the next few minutes.
Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 30 novembre 2012 - 07:04 .
#55314
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 07:08
Andromidius
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Big sigh. Blur's thread is getting replies that go essentially like this:
"I agree, but because you said it was related to Indoctrination Theory I'm disagreeing. Also Occum's Razor."
Seriously. How pig-headed do people have to be?
"I agree, but because you said it was related to Indoctrination Theory I'm disagreeing. Also Occum's Razor."
Seriously. How pig-headed do people have to be?
#55315
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 07:08
RavenEyry
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*Insert Sean Bean bracing himslef here*Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
Almost done, wall of text incomming within the next few minutes.
#55316
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 07:11
Raistlin Majare 1992
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The Catalyst in Mass Effect 3 is lying, not just as in deceiving you, it is lying and going against its own core programming as said by the Leviathans and itself. In the following bit I will explain why.
"Mandate to preserve life at any cost" - Leviathan
This is how the Leviathan describes the Intelligence it created, the one which turned upon them and harvested them. One could easily see the flaw in such a programming and why it went haywire. It saw the Leviathans as live to be preserved as well and thought broad, wanting to preserve all life which would come into existence, not just the current.
The problem is the Catalyst we meet does not follow that mandate even though it itself claims to do so. First to be completely sure that we can be certain it is this mandate it is following look at these two quotes from it.
"Storing the old life in reaper form" - Catalyst
"Reapers harvest all life - organic and synthetic - preserving them before they are forever lost to this conflict" - Catalyst
Simple enough and in line with the original mandate. Especially notice the "all" in the second part, there are no exceptions to the harvest. Problem is the Catalysts actions do not support its words.
First let us look at its servants, the Reapers. They are in charge of the harvest yet if we look at their actions it would seem they didn't get the memo from the Catalyst regarding preserving all life.
One of the first time line indications of this is the Rachni Wars. There is a heavy implication that Sovereign caused the Rachni wars through the queens comments about a "sour yellow note from space" and it is all but confirmed by ME3 with the line: "The machines came. They heard our song. The shriek of sour notes drowned us out."
The problem is the Rachni Wars caused the Rahcni's near extinction with only the queen surviving by a miracle . In short the Reapers just destroyed a race which according to the Catalyst self stated purpose should be harvested.
This one can be explained in that the Rachni were harvested during the Prothean cycle where they were also around, but the next example cannot be explained in that way.
Mass Effect 3 pits the Quarians against the Geth in their final battle and as we learn the Reapers are the ones controlling the Geth. problem is that without Shepard's either the Geth or the Quarian's are wiped out…completely. Even with interference there is a high possibility of this outcome anyway removing a race which should have been harvested.
Again I refer you to the fact that the Catalyst says "all life" even emphasizing that it includes Synthetics. There is no explanation for this breach of programming for the Catalyst.
It only gets stranger when you remember the lines Harbinger could speak during the final battle in ME2 against the Proto Reaper. These lines depended on what species of squad mate you had with you.
“Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”
“Drell; useless, insufficient numbers.”
“Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.”
“Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.”
“Geth; an annoyance, limited utility.”
“Krogan; sterilized race, potential wasted.”
“Turian; you are considered...too primitive.”
Did Harbinger, the original Reaper not get the memo on harvesting all life? Sounds more like any other species than humanity is going to be wiped out.
But let us move on from the Reapers and to the Catalyst himself as two of the three options you can make at the end goes directly against his mandate.
"Soon your children will create Synthetics and then the chaos will come back" - Catalyst
Look above, isn't it nice when he spells out the problem in his own offer himself? No, I don’t refer to the synthetics
coming back, I refer to the fact that if Destroy truly isn't a permanent solution then why is he offering it?
His mandate was to preserve all life at any cost, but if Shepard goes through with Destroy not only will every single Reaper and the life it represents get wiped out, but he will also halt any future harvests and even according to this line cause the death of everything as the Synthetics rise up again. It even kills the Geth wiping out another race it should preserve. It is the ultimate failure of his purpose and programming, yet he is allowing it.
Control is the same though less so. If Shepard takes control of the Reapers then the harvest will stop, no more
species will be preserved and every dead species will be lost forever. It is less of a break, but the catalyst mandate is still to preserve "all" life (funny how a single word can bite you in the ass so many times. I would call it a slip of tongue was it not an AI supercomputer talking).
Obviously this is only the case if Reaper Shepard doesn't reach the same conclusion as the catalyst and starts up the cycle again.
You might assume that the Catalyst simply did not have any choice regarding this, that he had to tell Shepard due to the Crucible and couldn’t stop him in any way. That would be true until the Extended Cut rolled around and gave us the Refuse ending.
In this ending the Catalyst walks away and disappears, the lights go dark and the Crucible shuts down. lacking any other visible factors we have to assume it was the Catalyst cause. If he could shut down the Crucible at will, why allow Destroy to happen?
Also finally this is unrelated to his direct trust, but I think I got that point across already as we are clearly shown the Catalyst and its supposed minions going against its supposed purpose and mandate several times.
But consider that the catalyst takes the form of a child Shepard sees on Earth. The only logical explanation there is for it taking this form is that it knows about the child, but how? How does it know about this child which Shepard saw on Earth and had nightmares about, how does it know the child is significant to Shepard?
The only explanation is that it has accessed Shepard´s mind at some point seeing this. That would mean it has been in your head without you knowing and as it furthermore takes the shape of a child instead of trusted person from Shepard's memories mean it is trying to use symbol of innocence and guilt, most likely to manipulate Shepard as using a form with those meanings make little sense else.
And then there is the fact that the Catalyst reveals itself to be the leader of the Reapers, you know the killing machines directly aiming to kill you for three games straight and are known for deception and mind control? Can you really trust it?
Especially considering Harbinger was firing at you moments before, Shepard only surviving by a miracle. Then you encounter TIM who tries to kill you and quote on quote from the Catalyst, "we already controlled him."
Again you are probably going to say the Crucible changed the Catalyst, but how? It is just a giant battery, no one even knew of the catalyst being an AI (The Catalyst directly says you are the first person to make it that far) so the Crucible was not designed to alter it and even if it altered it, it clearly did not alter its core programming as the Catalyst states its purpose twice after the Crucible connects.
"Storing the old life in reaper form" - Catalyst
"Reapers harvest all life - organic and synthetic - preserving them before they are forever lost to this conflict" - Catalyst
And even then we have the Reapers going against the Catalyst "purpose" before the Crucible was even close to
the Citadel.
What does this mean? I will leave the conclusions to you, I just want to point out that this "benevolent" Catalyst is not speaking a lot of truths during its conversation and is not following the programming it says it has, so why can you trust it?
"Mandate to preserve life at any cost" - Leviathan
This is how the Leviathan describes the Intelligence it created, the one which turned upon them and harvested them. One could easily see the flaw in such a programming and why it went haywire. It saw the Leviathans as live to be preserved as well and thought broad, wanting to preserve all life which would come into existence, not just the current.
The problem is the Catalyst we meet does not follow that mandate even though it itself claims to do so. First to be completely sure that we can be certain it is this mandate it is following look at these two quotes from it.
"Storing the old life in reaper form" - Catalyst
"Reapers harvest all life - organic and synthetic - preserving them before they are forever lost to this conflict" - Catalyst
Simple enough and in line with the original mandate. Especially notice the "all" in the second part, there are no exceptions to the harvest. Problem is the Catalysts actions do not support its words.
First let us look at its servants, the Reapers. They are in charge of the harvest yet if we look at their actions it would seem they didn't get the memo from the Catalyst regarding preserving all life.
One of the first time line indications of this is the Rachni Wars. There is a heavy implication that Sovereign caused the Rachni wars through the queens comments about a "sour yellow note from space" and it is all but confirmed by ME3 with the line: "The machines came. They heard our song. The shriek of sour notes drowned us out."
The problem is the Rachni Wars caused the Rahcni's near extinction with only the queen surviving by a miracle . In short the Reapers just destroyed a race which according to the Catalyst self stated purpose should be harvested.
This one can be explained in that the Rachni were harvested during the Prothean cycle where they were also around, but the next example cannot be explained in that way.
Mass Effect 3 pits the Quarians against the Geth in their final battle and as we learn the Reapers are the ones controlling the Geth. problem is that without Shepard's either the Geth or the Quarian's are wiped out…completely. Even with interference there is a high possibility of this outcome anyway removing a race which should have been harvested.
Again I refer you to the fact that the Catalyst says "all life" even emphasizing that it includes Synthetics. There is no explanation for this breach of programming for the Catalyst.
It only gets stranger when you remember the lines Harbinger could speak during the final battle in ME2 against the Proto Reaper. These lines depended on what species of squad mate you had with you.
“Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”
“Drell; useless, insufficient numbers.”
“Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.”
“Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.”
“Geth; an annoyance, limited utility.”
“Krogan; sterilized race, potential wasted.”
“Turian; you are considered...too primitive.”
Did Harbinger, the original Reaper not get the memo on harvesting all life? Sounds more like any other species than humanity is going to be wiped out.
But let us move on from the Reapers and to the Catalyst himself as two of the three options you can make at the end goes directly against his mandate.
"Soon your children will create Synthetics and then the chaos will come back" - Catalyst
Look above, isn't it nice when he spells out the problem in his own offer himself? No, I don’t refer to the synthetics
coming back, I refer to the fact that if Destroy truly isn't a permanent solution then why is he offering it?
His mandate was to preserve all life at any cost, but if Shepard goes through with Destroy not only will every single Reaper and the life it represents get wiped out, but he will also halt any future harvests and even according to this line cause the death of everything as the Synthetics rise up again. It even kills the Geth wiping out another race it should preserve. It is the ultimate failure of his purpose and programming, yet he is allowing it.
Control is the same though less so. If Shepard takes control of the Reapers then the harvest will stop, no more
species will be preserved and every dead species will be lost forever. It is less of a break, but the catalyst mandate is still to preserve "all" life (funny how a single word can bite you in the ass so many times. I would call it a slip of tongue was it not an AI supercomputer talking).
Obviously this is only the case if Reaper Shepard doesn't reach the same conclusion as the catalyst and starts up the cycle again.
You might assume that the Catalyst simply did not have any choice regarding this, that he had to tell Shepard due to the Crucible and couldn’t stop him in any way. That would be true until the Extended Cut rolled around and gave us the Refuse ending.
In this ending the Catalyst walks away and disappears, the lights go dark and the Crucible shuts down. lacking any other visible factors we have to assume it was the Catalyst cause. If he could shut down the Crucible at will, why allow Destroy to happen?
Also finally this is unrelated to his direct trust, but I think I got that point across already as we are clearly shown the Catalyst and its supposed minions going against its supposed purpose and mandate several times.
But consider that the catalyst takes the form of a child Shepard sees on Earth. The only logical explanation there is for it taking this form is that it knows about the child, but how? How does it know about this child which Shepard saw on Earth and had nightmares about, how does it know the child is significant to Shepard?
The only explanation is that it has accessed Shepard´s mind at some point seeing this. That would mean it has been in your head without you knowing and as it furthermore takes the shape of a child instead of trusted person from Shepard's memories mean it is trying to use symbol of innocence and guilt, most likely to manipulate Shepard as using a form with those meanings make little sense else.
And then there is the fact that the Catalyst reveals itself to be the leader of the Reapers, you know the killing machines directly aiming to kill you for three games straight and are known for deception and mind control? Can you really trust it?
Especially considering Harbinger was firing at you moments before, Shepard only surviving by a miracle. Then you encounter TIM who tries to kill you and quote on quote from the Catalyst, "we already controlled him."
Again you are probably going to say the Crucible changed the Catalyst, but how? It is just a giant battery, no one even knew of the catalyst being an AI (The Catalyst directly says you are the first person to make it that far) so the Crucible was not designed to alter it and even if it altered it, it clearly did not alter its core programming as the Catalyst states its purpose twice after the Crucible connects.
"Storing the old life in reaper form" - Catalyst
"Reapers harvest all life - organic and synthetic - preserving them before they are forever lost to this conflict" - Catalyst
And even then we have the Reapers going against the Catalyst "purpose" before the Crucible was even close to
the Citadel.
What does this mean? I will leave the conclusions to you, I just want to point out that this "benevolent" Catalyst is not speaking a lot of truths during its conversation and is not following the programming it says it has, so why can you trust it?
Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 30 novembre 2012 - 08:34 .
#55317
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 07:14
Andromidius
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My thoughts on that thread though. I like it.
What we've done in-game hasn't even necessarily stopped this plan either. The Eezo from Omega has been taken, the people on Sanctuary have been taken, the Proto-Reaper remains have been studied extensively, TIM is still on the run (if we 'assume' that isn't really him in the end sequence).
And most of all, we've not gone back through the Omega-4 Relay. Undoubtably that's where the new Proto-Reaper is, either on the Collector Base if we spared it or on board the new Avernus Station Cerberus built.
It makes PERFECT sense for Cerberus to have its main military force guarding that system now, and Omega is so close to the Omega-4 Relay that transporting the Eezo would be ridiculously easy. Not to mention Omega's other Relay connects all across the Galaxy, making movements easier for them and allows them to transport people to be processed without being harassed.
...all makes sense now.
What we've done in-game hasn't even necessarily stopped this plan either. The Eezo from Omega has been taken, the people on Sanctuary have been taken, the Proto-Reaper remains have been studied extensively, TIM is still on the run (if we 'assume' that isn't really him in the end sequence).
And most of all, we've not gone back through the Omega-4 Relay. Undoubtably that's where the new Proto-Reaper is, either on the Collector Base if we spared it or on board the new Avernus Station Cerberus built.
It makes PERFECT sense for Cerberus to have its main military force guarding that system now, and Omega is so close to the Omega-4 Relay that transporting the Eezo would be ridiculously easy. Not to mention Omega's other Relay connects all across the Galaxy, making movements easier for them and allows them to transport people to be processed without being harassed.
...all makes sense now.
#55318
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 07:20
RavenEyry
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I also notice that the 'all life' mandate apparently only applies to all sentient life. You don't hear of squirrels being harvested.
#55319
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 07:23
RavenEyry
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I read that one. Funny how that theory is plausible and this is straw grasping despite them both being based on heavy in game hints with a lot of added supposition.Andromidius wrote...
Big sigh. Blur's thread is getting replies that go essentially like this:
"I agree, but because you said it was related to Indoctrination Theory I'm disagreeing. Also Occum's Razor."
Seriously. How pig-headed do people have to be?
#55320
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 07:29
GethPrimeMKII
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RavenEyry wrote...
I read that one. Funny how that theory is plausible and this is straw grasping despite them both being based on heavy in game hints with a lot of added supposition.Andromidius wrote...
Big sigh. Blur's thread is getting replies that go essentially like this:
"I agree, but because you said it was related to Indoctrination Theory I'm disagreeing. Also Occum's Razor."
Seriously. How pig-headed do people have to be?
I still insist that if people were to take the time to read the front page, and the links, they wouldnt be so quick to write off the theory as some dumb made up crap we pulled out of our collective asses.
But nobody likes to invest in something that takes more than 2 minutes to read up on. Bashing something with zero effort to understand it is so much easier
Modifié par GethPrimeMKII, 30 novembre 2012 - 07:32 .
#55321
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 07:40
Andromidius
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Plus its what all the cool kids are doing, so why not copy them!
And yeah, I agree with the big ol' wall o' text there. The 'Catalyst' is either lying or is insane. Either case is bad news. You can't claim to be protecting or preserving all life when you blantantly destroy life that isn't useful to you.
And yeah, I agree with the big ol' wall o' text there. The 'Catalyst' is either lying or is insane. Either case is bad news. You can't claim to be protecting or preserving all life when you blantantly destroy life that isn't useful to you.
#55322
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 07:48
DoomsdayDevice
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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
demersel wrote...
GethPrimeMKII wrote...
The first time I played through it I was so close to hitting the button. But then I realized how closely this scene mirrored the decision chamber. So I didnt press the button.
But not pushing the button would be closer to refuse than to destroy, no? (i didn't push the button)
No, not pressing the button is either done because you trust Aria and Nyreen can survive despite what you hear or because you are willing to sacrifice the few (Aria and Nyreen) (Geth and EDI) for the many (Thosuands of civilians) (the entire galaxy). It is not so much refusing to press it as it is making a choice to not press it, to not sacrifice the many.
Exactly. What's interesting is that 'to sacrifice the few to save the many', in the ending you need to take the violent course of action, and on Omega you need to resist the urge to take the violent course of action.
Same result, two opposite ways of achieving it, depending on the situation.
#55323
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 07:53
Restrider
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I hit the button at the third interrupt. First of all I was playing a renegade character, and secondly in my first ME3 playthrough I chose Refuse and I was burnt by this decision and compelled to not let indecision interfere with my goals.GethPrimeMKII wrote...
The first time I played through it I was so close to hitting the button. But then I realized how closely this scene mirrored the decision chamber. So I didnt press the button.demersel wrote...
GethPrimeMKII wrote...
Replaying omega again. The scene in the reactor where Aria and Nyreen are trapped is simply brilliant. Its my favorite scene in the dlc by far.
What did you do?
#55324
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 07:56
demersel
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#55325
Posté 30 novembre 2012 - 07:58
Restrider
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to the Anderson-1000-EMS discussion:
Apparantly there is no reasonable explanation in a literal POV...
Intriguing...
Apparantly there is no reasonable explanation in a literal POV...
Intriguing...
