80611 réponses à ce sujet

[BatmanTurian]

demersel wrote...

BatmanTurian - Omega is awesome! I consider it even more of IT DLC than Leviathan. In leviathan you're like - "Hey we could be getting indoctrinated". In Omega you're like "Ok, but what do I do about it?"

Omega is indeed A+ writing. 

It is much more sublte than Leviathan which is more like "in your face".

Read the dev's blog post about making Omega - they basicly say everything you say, as much without saying it directly as they can - 

blog.bioware.com/2012/11/30/dev-blog-creating-the-mass-effect-3-omega-dlc/

Aria’s thirst for revenge is not only driven by what typically motivates
her—pride and power—and when she is faced with losing Omega, Aria
becomes enraged like someone whose lover has been taken away.


To offset Aria, we introduced a calming force by ways of a brand new
character: Nyreen. Former Turian military, Nyreen is the exact opposite
of Aria—she is in control and pragmatic. Nyreen shares Aria’s dedication
to the people of Omega and wants to liberate it from Cerberus
occupation, and they also share a common past.

Bam. Aria's dedication to Omega is the Reaper's Dedication to the galaxy, to control it and use it. Nyreen is shepard, pragmatic and controlled.  Nyreen's dedication to Omega is to keep it free and hopefully to remove Aria's influence. Aria's deal with Cerberus that went bad directly mirrors the Reaper's deal with cerberus that went bad. Aria has a past with Nyreen just as Harbinger has a past with Shepard. This is just outstanding.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 30 novembre 2012 - 10:28 .

[demersel]

BatmanTurian - there is another side to it. Aria herself. If we do things the way Nyreen wants - it changes Aria - and by the end she is not herself anymore - that is indoctrination at its best - you change the way a person views the world.
Renegade Aria is ruthless, but that is what she is - if you do everything her way, and kill Petrovsky - She says to you in the purgatory - Once again, I am Omega. This means she is back at to herself of the times of ME2.

Paragon Aria is broken and pathetic. Yes it seems like a good thing - she cares for the people now, she is mercifull to cerberus and lets them go... Sunshine and rainbows and world peace... But THAT IS NOT WHO SHE IS. She is a ruthless egotistical vengefull ****! A hard ass. Making her better and more caring is changing her nature.

And consider this - Omega is Aria's home.  What would you do to those who kick you out of your own home, And kill your family and pets? 

Replace Aria with Shepard, Omega with Earth, and Cerberus with Reapers, Petrovsky with Harbinger. What do you get? Priority: Earth. 
Would you let Harbinger go, and reapers leave?  
Would you hesitate to blow up London if it is the only way you can proceed forward?  

Modifié par demersel, 30 novembre 2012 - 10:30 .

[BatmanTurian]

demersel wrote...

BatmanTurian - there is another side to it. Aria herself. If we do things the way Nyreen wants - it changes Aria - and by the end she is not herself anymore - that is indoctrination at its best - you change the way a person views the world.
Renegade Aria is ruthless, but that is what she is - if you do everything her way, and kill Petrovsky - She says to you in the purgatory - Once again, I am Omega. This means she is back at to herself of the times of ME2.

Paragon Aria is broken and pathetic. Yes it seems like a good thing - she cares for the people now, she is mercifull to cerberus and lets them go... Sunshine and rainbows and world peace... But THAT IS NOT WHO SHE IS. She is a ruthless egotistical vengefull ****! A hard ass. Making her better and more caring is changing her nature.

Paragon Aria is pacified Synthesized Shepard or EC pacified fans depending on how you look at it.

[demersel]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Paragon Aria is pacified Synthesized Shepard or EC pacified fans depending on how you look at it.

Exaclty. I was repulsed by it. 

And Nyreen is at least partially is affected by indoctrination - to the point of being dellusional. she is being manipulated by her guilt and her desire to care for anyone. 

Modifié par demersel, 30 novembre 2012 - 10:33 .

[byne]

demersel wrote...

BatmanTurian - there is another side to it. Aria herself. If we do things the way Nyreen wants - it changes Aria - and by the end she is not herself anymore - that is indoctrination at its best - you change the way a person views the world.
Renegade Aria is ruthless, but that is what she is - if you do everything her way, and kill Petrovsky - She says to you in the purgatory - Once again, I am Omega. This means she is back at to herself of the times of ME2.

Paragon Aria is broken and pathetic. Yes it seems like a good thing - she cares for the people now, she is mercifull to cerberus and lets them go... Sunshine and rainbows and world peace... But THAT IS NOT WHO SHE IS. She is a ruthless egotistical vengefull ****! A hard ass. Making her better and more caring is changing her nature.

I still think Aria is Aleena, and Wrex says Aleena was a bit of a softy. I say Paragon Aria is her actually being closer to who she really is, and not just putting on a mean face to show no weakness.

[Rifneno]

demersel wrote...

BatmanTurian - there is another side to it. Aria herself. If we do things the way Nyreen wants - it changes Aria - and by the end she is not herself anymore - that is indoctrination at its best - you change the way a person views the world.
Renegade Aria is ruthless, but that is what she is - if you do everything her way, and kill Petrovsky - She says to you in the purgatory - Once again, I am Omega. This means she is back at to herself of the times of ME2.

Paragon Aria is broken and pathetic. Yes it seems like a good thing - she cares for the people now, she is mercifull to cerberus and lets them go... Sunshine and rainbows and world peace... But THAT IS NOT WHO SHE IS. She is a ruthless egotistical vengefull ****! A hard ass. Making her better and more caring is changing her nature.

Paragon Aria does not "spare Cerberus".  She takes the surrender of one guy who let her live and hands him over to a government that wants to squeeze information out of him that'll damage Cerberus much more than killing him.  It is the practical decision.  There's no mercy for anyone except the antivillain.  They're still dragging off Cerberus mooks in the streets and giving them Omega justice.  Aria even says she can't promise her methods will change.  She's still Aria.  Shepard has just influenced her enough to give a damn about the people she rules.

[byne]

Rifneno wrote...

demersel wrote...

BatmanTurian - there is another side to it. Aria herself. If we do things the way Nyreen wants - it changes Aria - and by the end she is not herself anymore - that is indoctrination at its best - you change the way a person views the world.
Renegade Aria is ruthless, but that is what she is - if you do everything her way, and kill Petrovsky - She says to you in the purgatory - Once again, I am Omega. This means she is back at to herself of the times of ME2.

Paragon Aria is broken and pathetic. Yes it seems like a good thing - she cares for the people now, she is mercifull to cerberus and lets them go... Sunshine and rainbows and world peace... But THAT IS NOT WHO SHE IS. She is a ruthless egotistical vengefull ****! A hard ass. Making her better and more caring is changing her nature.

Paragon Aria does not "spare Cerberus".  She takes the surrender of one guy who let her live and hands him over to a government that wants to squeeze information out of him that'll damage Cerberus much more than killing him.  It is the practical decision.  There's no mercy for anyone except the antivillain.  They're still dragging off Cerberus mooks in the streets and giving them Omega justice.  Aria even says she can't promise her methods will change.  She's still Aria.  Shepard has just influenced her enough to give a damn about the people she rules.

She orders them to eject Cerberus from Omega if she's paragon. She doesnt order them to kill them like Renegade Aria does.

The others might still kill them, but Aria definitely doesnt order them to do so.

[Restrider]

demersel wrote...

How much war assets do you think Shepard is worth?
Lazarus project's cost alone must be astronomical - Illusive man admitted that youcould build an entire fleet of dreadnoughts and hire all the crews for that....

Shepard is worth ∞ EMS.

[masster blaster]

That depnds BT. Aria as a Paragon I could see. It goes to show she wanted to change because if you let her be herself. After the war the people may revoult. Aria would yes let everyone have freedom, as long as they don't break her rules. Also they would feel like Aria is no better than Cerberus. I mean look how many people wanted to kill Aria. I can't blame them.

[Andromidius]

byne wrote...

She orders them to eject Cerberus from Omega if she's paragon. She doesnt order them to kill them like Renegade Aria does.

Eject them...

...out of the nearest airlock?

[spotlessvoid]

I really don't like labeling being charismatic and persuasive as indoctrination. It really undermines how much of a physiological process it is. Shepard uses leadership to get people to follow, not subversion. It's the exact opposite. Even Aria is a little in awe of the ultimate badass.

[BatmanTurian]

byne wrote...

demersel wrote...

BatmanTurian - there is another side to it. Aria herself. If we do things the way Nyreen wants - it changes Aria - and by the end she is not herself anymore - that is indoctrination at its best - you change the way a person views the world.
Renegade Aria is ruthless, but that is what she is - if you do everything her way, and kill Petrovsky - She says to you in the purgatory - Once again, I am Omega. This means she is back at to herself of the times of ME2.

Paragon Aria is broken and pathetic. Yes it seems like a good thing - she cares for the people now, she is mercifull to cerberus and lets them go... Sunshine and rainbows and world peace... But THAT IS NOT WHO SHE IS. She is a ruthless egotistical vengefull ****! A hard ass. Making her better and more caring is changing her nature.

I still think Aria is Aleena, and Wrex says Aleena was a bit of a softy. I say Paragon Aria is her actually being closer to who she really is, and not just putting on a mean face to show no weakness.

I agree with you that Aria is most likely Aleena and the rest of it. I am just stating the metaphorical parallels I see.

[demersel]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I really don't like labeling being charismatic and persuasive as indoctrination. It really undermines how much of a physiological process it is. Shepard uses leadership to get people to follow, not subversion. It's the exact opposite. Even Aria is a little in awe of the ultimate badass.

Let's run down our points - We here agree that during the course of ME3 Shepard is undergoing the indoctrination process, and he is already significantly tainted by it at the beginning of ME3 for symptoms to become noticable. 

The codex entry on indoctrination states that indoctrinated persons could even become beacons for spreading indoctrination signal. 

And that is what shepard does in ME3 - he runs around the galaxy spreading indoctrination as a desease - while using the benefits of having it - people get influnced by you faster and more easily. They get more inclined to listen to your point of view and take it as their own. 

[BatmanTurian]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I really don't like labeling being charismatic and persuasive as indoctrination. It really undermines how much of a physiological process it is. Shepard uses leadership to get people to follow, not subversion. It's the exact opposite. Even Aria is a little in awe of the ultimate badass.

It's a trait that brings people around to your way of thinking. Using Charisma you can subtly get others to follow you, like you, hell hold you in awe, and pursuade others to do what you think they should do. Physiologically, it rewires another person's brain to feel endorphins when you are around and when they do something for you and it becomes a pleasure loop (do something for someone you like, they are grateful, you get pleasure from that, rinse, repeat). Indoctrination as the Reapers do it is the same thing, only cruder, physiologically damaging, and less out in the open.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 30 novembre 2012 - 10:49 .

[spotlessvoid]

Shepard has earned that respect and awe through his actions. People follow him because he is an example. Whether by being a beacon of hope or an indomitable intimidator.

Reaper indoctrination uses a physiological attack to undermine then usurp the targets ability to even think for himself. It's not convincing someone, it's replacing their thoughts altogether.

[BatmanTurian]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Shepard has earned that respect and awe through his actions. People follow him because he is an example. Whether by being a beacon of hope or an indomitable intimidator.

Reaper indoctrination uses a physiological attack to undermine then usurp the targets ability to even think for himself. It's not convincing someone, it's replacing their thoughts altogether.

All of those facts are true, but the results are the same.

[masster blaster]

Why Indoctrinating Shepard Does Not Make Sense

I guess DD's thread pissed people off so much the person had to create a thread that makes less sense than the literal endings.

[BatmanTurian]

masster blaster wrote...

Why Indoctrinating Shepard Does Not Make Sense

I guess DD's thread pissed people off so much the person had to create a thread that makes less sense than the literal endings.

Making a thread about why indoctrinating shepard does not make sense does not, itself, make sense.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 30 novembre 2012 - 11:01 .

[masster blaster]

BatmanTurian wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Why Indoctrinating Shepard Does Not Make Sense

I guess DD's thread pissed people off so much the person had to create a thread that makes less sense than the literal endings.

Making a thread about why indoctrinating shepard does not make sense does, itself, not make sense.

true.

[masster blaster]

Eryri wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...


The Catalyst in Mass Effect 3 is lying, not just as in deceiving you, it is lying and going against its own core programming as said by the Leviathans and itself. In the following bit I will explain why.

"Mandate to preserve life at any cost" - Leviathan

This is how the Leviathan describes the Intelligence it created, the one which turned upon them and harvested them. One could easily see the flaw in such a programming and why it went haywire. It saw the Leviathans as live to be preserved as well and thought broad, wanting to preserve all life which would come into existence, not just the current.

The problem is the Catalyst we meet does not follow that mandate even though it itself claims to do so. First to be completely sure that we can be certain it is this mandate it is following look at these two quotes from it.

"Storing the old life in reaper form" - Catalyst

"Reapers harvest all life - organic and synthetic - preserving them before they are forever lost to this conflict" - Catalyst

Simple enough and in line with the original mandate. Especially notice the "all" in the second part, there are no exceptions to the harvest. Problem is the Catalysts actions do not support its words.

First let us look at its servants, the Reapers. They are in charge of the harvest yet if we look at their actions it would seem they didn't get the memo from the Catalyst regarding preserving all life.

One of the first time line indications of this is the Rachni Wars. There is a heavy implication that Sovereign caused the Rachni wars through the queens comments about a "sour yellow note from space" and it is all but confirmed by ME3 with the line: "The machines came. They heard our song. The shriek of sour notes drowned us out."

The problem is the Rachni Wars caused the Rahcni's near extinction with only the queen surviving by a miracle . In short the Reapers just destroyed a race which according to the Catalyst self stated purpose should be harvested.

This one can be explained in that the Rachni were harvested during the Prothean cycle where they were also around, but the next example cannot be explained in that way.

Mass Effect 3 pits the Quarians against the Geth in their final battle and as we learn the Reapers are the ones controlling the Geth. problem is that without Shepard's either the Geth or the Quarian's are wiped out…completely. Even with interference there is a high possibility of this outcome anyway removing a race which should have been harvested.

Again I refer you to the fact that the Catalyst says "all life" even emphasizing that it includes Synthetics. There is no explanation for this breach of programming for the Catalyst.

It only gets stranger when you remember the lines Harbinger could speak during the final battle in ME2 against the Proto Reaper. These lines depended on what species of squad mate you had with you.

“Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”

“Drell; useless, insufficient numbers.”

 “Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.”

“Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.”

 “Geth; an annoyance, limited utility.”

 “Krogan; sterilized race, potential wasted.”

“Turian; you are considered...too primitive.”

Did Harbinger, the original Reaper not get the memo on harvesting all life? Sounds more like any other species than humanity is going to be wiped out.

But let us move on from the Reapers and to the Catalyst himself as two of the three options you can make at the end goes directly against his mandate.

"Soon your children will create Synthetics and then the chaos will come back" - Catalyst

Look above, isn't it nice when he spells out the problem in his own offer himself? No, I don’t refer to the synthetics
coming back, I refer to the fact that if Destroy truly isn't a permanent solution then why is he offering it?

His mandate was to preserve all life at any cost, but if Shepard goes through with Destroy not only will every single
Reaper and the life it represents get wiped out, but he will also halt any future harvests and even according to this line cause the death of everything as the Synthetics rise up again. It even kills the Geth wiping out another race it
should preserve. It is the ultimate failure of his purpose and programming, yet he is allowing it.

Control is the same though less so. If Shepard takes control of the Reapers then the harvest will stop, no more
species will be preserved and every dead species will be lost forever. It is less of a break, but the catalyst mandate is still to preserve "all" life (funny how a single word can bite you in the ass so many times. I would call it a slip of tongue was it not an AI supercomputer talking).

Obviously this is only the case if Reaper Shepard doesn't reach the same conclusion as the catalyst and starts up the cycle again.

You might assume that the Catalyst simply did not have any choice regarding this, that he had to tell Shepard due to the Crucible and couldn’t stop him in any way. That would be true until the Extended Cut rolled around and gave us the Refuse ending.

In this ending the Catalyst walks away and disappears, the lights go dark and the Crucible shuts down. lacking any other visible factors we have to assume it was the Catalyst cause. If he could shut down the Crucible at will, why allow Destroy to happen?  

Also finally this is unrelated to his direct trust, but I think I got that point across already as we are clearly shown the Catalyst and its supposed minions going against its supposed purpose and mandate several times.

But consider that the catalyst takes the form of a child Shepard sees on Earth. The only logical explanation there is for it taking this form is that it knows about the child, but how? How does it know about this child which Shepard saw on Earth and had nightmares about, how does it know the child is significant to Shepard?

The only explanation is that it has accessed Shepard´s mind at some point seeing this. That would mean it has been in your head without you knowing and as it furthermore takes the shape of a child instead of trusted person from Shepard's memories mean it is trying to use symbol of innocence and guilt, most likely to manipulate Shepard as using a form with those meanings make little sense else.

And then there is the fact that the Catalyst reveals itself to be the leader of the Reapers, you know the killing machines directly aiming to kill you for three games straight and are known for deception and mind control? Can you really trust it?

Especially considering Harbinger was firing at you moments before, Shepard only surviving by a miracle. Then you encounter TIM who tries to kill you and quote on quote from the Catalyst, "we already controlled him."

Again you are probably going to say the Crucible changed the Catalyst, but how? It is just a giant battery, no one even knew of the catalyst being an AI (The Catalyst directly says you are the first person to make it that far) so the Crucible was not designed to alter it and even if it altered it, it clearly did not alter its core programming as the Catalyst states its purpose twice after the Crucible connects.

"Storing the old life in reaper form" - Catalyst

"Reapers harvest all life - organic and synthetic - preserving them before they are forever lost to this conflict" - Catalyst

And even then we have the Reapers going against the Catalyst "purpose" before the Crucible was even close to
the Citadel.

What does this mean? I will leave the conclusions to you, I just want to point out that this "benevolent" Catalyst is not speaking a lot of truths during its conversation and is not following the programming it says it has, so why can you trust it?

Just thought this deserved quoting for the new page. A superb wall of text and I agree with every point.

This^^^^^^^

Plus all the troops that Harbinger kills and the fleet's ships being blown up, along with the people inside. ya,

Modifié par masster blaster, 30 novembre 2012 - 11:03 .

[spotlessvoid]

I guess my point BT is that what Shepard does is the opposite of indoctrination, which is a pejorative term. Shepard doesn't fool people, he generally inspires them

I guess I just feel it's an insult to everything Shepard represents. Shepard doesn't seek to bypass critical thinking in others. In fact, paragon Shepard especially tries to convince people through stating the facts and having the charisma and history to back it up. Indoctrination is the exact opposite

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 30 novembre 2012 - 11:06 .

[BatmanTurian]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I guess my point BT is that what Shepard does is the opposite of indoctrination, which is a pejorative term. Shepard doesn't fool people, he generally inspires them

I know what you are saying and I agree. I think we are having some misunderstanding or minor disagreement.

I believe the Reapers would see what Shepard does as beneficial because it would be a more efficient way of influencing others. So, perhaps they are thinking about going from terrorizing and brainwashing to benevolently influencing with charisma and then backstabbing or trapping.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 30 novembre 2012 - 11:08 .

[BatmanTurian]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I guess I just feel it's an insult to everything Shepard represents. Shepard doesn't seek to bypass critical thinking in others. In fact, paragon Shepard especially tries to convince people through stating the facts and having the charisma and history to back it up. Indoctrination is the exact opposite

Yeah, I think you are misinterpreting me. Reapers would look at the results, and then try to figure out the process. The result is the subject does what you want it to do, that's all Reapers would care about. I know they are opposites but one is more efficient than the other so maybe the Reapers are thinking about using what Shepard uses to further their agenda and make the harvest more efficient. I'm trying to look at it as a cold machine would look at it.

[masster blaster]

So anything new lately guys/gals?

Top!

Modifié par masster blaster, 30 novembre 2012 - 11:14 .

[BatmanTurian]

masster blaster wrote...

So anything new lately guys/gals?

Top!

http://social.biowar...7/2215#15117997

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 30 novembre 2012 - 11:25 .