80611 réponses à ce sujet

[RavenEyry]

byne wrote...

I dont think the godchild exists in reality, no.

I am aware the Leviathans referred to an intelligence, but I dont think godchild was it.

Ditto.

Some think it may be part of Harbinger, others that it no longer exists. It's also possible the levithans were lying, though I've no guess why.

[Andromidius]

Actually, I think 'The Intelligence' may be a more abstract concept, like the Geth Concensus. A networked hive mind between the billions of minds that make up each Reaper, then networked to all the other Reapers via QEC style technology. But unlike the Geth Concensus, each Reaper is still independant.

And thus, as the Leviathan's creation did its work it grew more and more intellgent and spiralled out of control.

This makes sense in the context of what the Reapers themselves have told us, and second hand information from the Geth, and also from a logical standpoint. An AI isn't necessarily limited to one peice of hardware, much like today's Internet isn't a 'thing' - its a massive network of things all working together.

It doesn't make sense for there to be a single voice 'commanding' all the other Reapers, and being able to speak for all of them.  It makes much more sense for one Reaper to be selected to be the conduit of the Reaper's combined intelligence and knowledge.

Modifié par Andromidius, 01 décembre 2012 - 06:46 .

[401 Kill]

On the subject of the Child:

Shepard sees a child playing on a rooftop, then the Reapers come. The child has a short amount of time to leave the park on the roof. Later in the level, you can see the same place where the child was at the beginning of the game- except that there is not park there anymore.

Next, the kid would have to travel a very long distance to the near top of another massive building. The child can be seen sitting near the edge of that building, watching a Reaper. As you move closer, he runs through a locked door to get in the building, which is later destroyed by the Reapers. A massive explosion happens in the room where the child is hiding .

When you enter the building, you hold open a stuck door for Anderson. When Anderson goes through, Shepard goes to an air vent with the child in it. The conversation with the child is eerie ("You can't save me."), what child refuses help from a millatary officer? When Anderson aproaches, the child is gone. And a Reaper growl sounds.

At the Evac sight for the child, nobody except Shepard seems to notice him. The child struggles to climb into the shuttle, and nobody even attempts to help him. When the child climbs in, he looks up, directly at Shepard.

After all this, personally, I believe that the child was never real. The child was fake right from the start of the game. I think that the Reapers are using this child to haunt Shepard about his failure to save him. The child also appears in Shepard's dreams, these dreams include lots of Indoctrination codex clues (oily shadows for one), and to top it all off, the "Catalyst" appears as that very child.

Modifié par 401 Kill, 01 décembre 2012 - 07:07 .

[masster blaster]

True there are some hints that Harbinger is the leader of the Reapers.

Harbinger at the end of ME2, is leading the Reapers into the Milky Way galaxy.

Harbinger personally leads the attack on Earth,where ironicly Shepard so happence to be on.

Harbinger tells the other Reapers about Shepard.

Harbinger just so happence to go down to Earth, to stop Shepard from reaching the conduit, and is the only Reaper to land on Earth. That went to go stop Shepard.

Harbinger is the oldest/ first Reaper true Reapers.

Harbinger is seen on TIM's data screen, when you talk to him on Mars. Probable hinting that maybe Harbinger is the key to Control the Reapers.

Harbinger over sees the Arrival project.

Harbinger is already harvesting humanity in ME2, and he personally tells us, who is sutible to become a Reaper/ be preserved.

Only Humanity is worthy of being perserved into Reaper form, so that leads us to believe what's going to happened to the other races. Only soultion, they become Husk/ Reaper ground troops/ become the new Collectors.

Modifié par masster blaster, 01 décembre 2012 - 07:10 .

[masster blaster]

401 Kill wrote...

On the subject of the Child:

Shepard sees a child playing on a rooftop, then the Reapers come. The child has a short amount of time to leave the park on the roof. Later in the level, you can see the same place where the child was at the beginning of the game- except that there is not park there anymore.

Next, the kid would have to travel a very long distance to the near top of another massive building. The child can be seen sitting near the edge of that building, watching a Reaper. As you move closer, he runs through a locked door to get in the building, which is later destroyed by the Reapers. A massive explosion happens in the room where the child is hiding .

When you enter the building, you hold open a stuck door for Anderson. When Anderson goes through, Shepard goes to an air vent with the child in it. The conversation with the child is eerie ("You can't save me."), what child refuses help from a millatary officer? When Anderson aproaches, the child is gone. And a Reaper growl sounds.

At the Evac sight for the child, nobody except Shepard seems to notice him. The child struggles to climb into the shuttle, and nobody even attempts to help him. When the child climbs in, he looks up, directly at Shepard.

After all this, personally, I believe that the child was never real. The child was fake right from the start of the game. I think that the Reapers are using this child to haunt Shepard about his failure to save him. The child also appears in Shepard's dreams, these dreams include lots of Indoctrination codex clues (oily shadows for one), and to top it all off, the "Catalyst" appears as that very child.

Which the child represents other than " All the people that Shepard couldn't save" he" doesn't need help", hinting that maybe at the end, the Catalyst doesn't need help. Yes it ask for a new solution, but maybe it means to deal with Shepard.

Control Reapers Control Shepard.
Synthesis Reapers Synthesis Shepard/ become one with Harbinger
Destroy Reapers Destroy Shepard, but fail for some reason which we can only speculate on
Refuse/reject the Reapers refuse/reject Shepard because they can't control, or synthesis hum/her.

Modifié par masster blaster, 01 décembre 2012 - 07:16 .

[masster blaster]

Okay so here is what I think happens in Destroy.

As Shepard on Earth is charging towards Harbingers beam, The Normandy comes back, and takes the hit from Harbingers beam. Now depending on the upgrades even the small ones, The Normandy can take minor damage, and fly off to either fire a round at Harbinger and damaging Harbinger, thus makes Harbinger run away or lower Harbinger to flow low them.

Now if you didn't upgrade the Normandy, then they make the ultimate sacrifice. Taking the hit from Harbingers beam, but in the end, it causes the Normandy to blow up.

Now here is another one Leviathan starts to use it's mind powers to semi take Control of Harbinger, and directs it beam towards some where else. Harbinger in fear of Leviathan further trying to take Control over him leaves.

Or all you ground war assets/ maybe some fleet assets " Arias fleet" comes just in time to save Shepard, and firers everything they got at Harbinger.

Modifié par masster blaster, 01 décembre 2012 - 07:27 .

[Restrider]

Just for the lulz:


Census results available very soon (~30 minutes)

[BatmanTurian]

Wayning_Star wrote...

the idea of indoctrination is
overblown. Its just not efficient enough. You have to be willing to
indoctrinated to fall into the catagory. Shep is impervious to
indoctrination. Implants and will and too many distractions from the
goals of indoctrination and it's implimentation. It would seem that
Shepard is an empath of sorts, to be able to 'link' with the prothean
beacons from jump, and survive. Saren was already mostly there, so thats
how he communed with them and survived. Others just burn out rather
quickly, under the mechanical influence, especially if they resist. TIM
"wanted" to be indoctrinated to find out more about reaper tech, that
was his folly. He couldn't control the reapers.

So much bulls***

[spotlessvoid]

Regarding the advantage of indoctrinating Shepard:

First, the Reapers have an established history of doing this so they must have their reasons.


One would be the blow to morale. Shepard and the crucible give everyone fighting a reason not to give up.

Another would be the sort of critical blow that could be dealt by an indoctrinated Shepard at a crucial moment.

Another is that they want Shepard to be the new Reapers avatar and need him willingly subservient.

[dreamgazer]

Eh, a case actually can be made for Shepard being immune to indoctrination, though I don't agree with it. If s/he can withstand the Prothean beacon's content and have it ciphered without dying, then perhaps Shepard's mental will is sturdy enough to not ever have to deal with the taint. 

[Andromidius]

dreamgazer wrote...

Eh, a case actually can be made for Shepard being immune to indoctrination, though I don't agree with it. If s/he can withstand the Prothean beacon's content and have it ciphered without dying, then perhaps Shepard's mental will is sturdy enough to not ever have to deal with the taint. 

I'd say that's a good case for being resistant to it, but not immune.

[BatmanTurian]

dreamgazer wrote...

Eh, a case actually can be made for Shepard being immune to indoctrination, though I don't agree with it. If s/he can withstand the Prothean beacon's content and have it ciphered without dying, then perhaps Shepard's mental will is sturdy enough to not ever have to deal with the taint. 

I dunno, I think it's ridiculous to think Shep, a regular organic, would be completely immune. It's like saying someone can't get a cold.

[byne]

dreamgazer wrote...

Eh, a case actually can be made for Shepard being immune to indoctrination, though I don't agree with it. If s/he can withstand the Prothean beacon's content and have it ciphered without dying, then perhaps Shepard's mental will is sturdy enough to not ever have to deal with the taint. 

Right, like how Saren could understand the beacons and thus was immune to indoctrina- waitaminute.

Modifié par byne, 01 décembre 2012 - 07:53 .

[dreamgazer]

byne wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Eh, a case actually can be made for Shepard being immune to indoctrination, though I don't agree with it. If s/he can withstand the Prothean beacon's content and have it ciphered without dying, then perhaps Shepard's mental will is sturdy enough to not ever have to deal with the taint. 

Right, like how Saren could understand the beacons and thus was immune to indoctrina- waitaminute.

Saren was already indoctrinated at that point, yes?

[byne]

dreamgazer wrote...

byne wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Eh, a case actually can be made for Shepard being immune to indoctrination, though I don't agree with it. If s/he can withstand the Prothean beacon's content and have it ciphered without dying, then perhaps Shepard's mental will is sturdy enough to not ever have to deal with the taint. 

Right, like how Saren could understand the beacons and thus was immune to indoctrina- waitaminute.

Saren was already indoctrinated at that point, yes?

One would assume indoctrination would weaken his mental will, not strengthen it.

[masster blaster]

Why Indoctrinate Shepard? Why Indoctrinated anyone simple.

The Reapers needed to activate the Citadel manual, but if Nazara where to have just shown up alone, the Citadel would have been shut before Nazara could get into the Citadel.

So He needed Saren the best specter before Shepard comes in, the one everyone one does not want as an enemy, and the person that has an dark ego/ easier to manipulate. To find a way in, hence they use saren to find the Conduit. Now Saren is going to need help/ Nazara is going to need a fleet to distract the fleet guarding the Citadel.

So Nazara hacked the geth ( half of the Geth) with a math error in their systems, and thus the stage is set.

Yet it the plan failed, so Harbinger uses the plan be card. uses Indoctrinated Collectors to gather humanity and start to make the human Reaper for this cycle.

Saren/ the Geth Indoctrinated

yet it fails.

TIM is now their plan c card. TIM has been slowly fighting Indoctrination, but the Reapers use TIM's ego as they did Saren's to use technology to Control the reapers/ help humanity. Thus time begins to implant reaper tech into his own troops, so it gives them an edge when the war is about to start. TIM's job is to start to causes havoc across the galaxy, and give the galaxy's forces a run for their money. TIM's job is to also plant the idea of Shepard can Control the Reapers. TIM Indoctrinated

Kenson's job was to allow the Reapers to arrive early, and thus the galaxy could be caught of guard by 6 months. Kenson Indoctrinated.

Yet failed.

Now Shepard is the prime target. Shepard has gathered the galaxy's best of the best troops,fleets, and the best people to take back Earth. Shepard is weakening the other races chances of holding back the reapers because he, or she is having the other races spare their troops to go help retake Earth.

If the Reapers Indoctrinate Shepard, then they would make Shepard undo all that he/she accomplish, and make the galaxy's greatest hero fail. In as sense it would be like harvy Dents turned into a Dark knight because of the Jokers influence. Shepard is turned into a Dark knight because of the Catalyst/ Reapers influence. Either way weather it's killing Shepard, or Indoctrinating Shepard the Reapers gain something.

[masster blaster]

Andromidius wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Eh, a case actually can be made for Shepard being immune to indoctrination, though I don't agree with it. If s/he can withstand the Prothean beacon's content and have it ciphered without dying, then perhaps Shepard's mental will is sturdy enough to not ever have to deal with the taint. 

I'd say that's a good case for being resistant to it, but not immune.

Just look at Leviathan. It got into Shepard's head with in a minute. Yea no. Fight it yes, but immune no.

[dreamgazer]

byne wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

byne wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Eh, a case actually can be made for Shepard being immune to indoctrination, though I don't agree with it. If s/he can withstand the Prothean beacon's content and have it ciphered without dying, then perhaps Shepard's mental will is sturdy enough to not ever have to deal with the taint.

Right, like how Saren could understand the beacons and thus was immune to indoctrina- waitaminute.

Saren was already indoctrinated at that point, yes?

One would assume indoctrination would weaken his mental will, not strengthen it.

Perhaps it depends on the direction. Maybe his manufactured resolve for the Reaper agenda strengthened his mental constitution in some distorted way. His invigorated belief made it so he could endure more, as long as it serviced those higher powers.

(shrug)

[dreamgazer]

masster blaster wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Eh, a case actually can be made for Shepard being immune to indoctrination, though I don't agree with it. If s/he can withstand the Prothean beacon's content and have it ciphered without dying, then perhaps Shepard's mental will is sturdy enough to not ever have to deal with the taint. 

I'd say that's a good case for being resistant to it, but not immune.

Just look at Leviathan. It got into Shepard's head with in a minute. Yea no. Fight it yes, but immune no.

One could argue that Shepard wanted to communicate with the Leviathans, since they held the secret to defeating the Reapers.  Lowered his/her guard.

[masster blaster]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Eh, a case actually can be made for Shepard being immune to indoctrination, though I don't agree with it. If s/he can withstand the Prothean beacon's content and have it ciphered without dying, then perhaps Shepard's mental will is sturdy enough to not ever have to deal with the taint. 

I dunno, I think it's ridiculous to think Shep, a regular organic, would be completely immune. It's like saying someone can't get a cold.

Shepard is just a regular soldier, not special right. He can't become Indoctrinated at the end because he/she is just a regular Soldier. He/she even tells Anderson/everyone that " I am just a soldier"

[masster blaster]

dreamgazer wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Eh, a case actually can be made for Shepard being immune to indoctrination, though I don't agree with it. If s/he can withstand the Prothean beacon's content and have it ciphered without dying, then perhaps Shepard's mental will is sturdy enough to not ever have to deal with the taint. 

I'd say that's a good case for being resistant to it, but not immune.

Just look at Leviathan. It got into Shepard's head with in a minute. Yea no. Fight it yes, but immune no.

One could argue that Shepard wanted to communicate with the Leviathans, since they held the secret to defeating the Reapers.  Lowered his/her guard.

And how would Shepard try to communicate with the leviathans?


Shepard: Okay I am going to let you inside my mind now, so don't do anything to my mind/ use my memorys.

few minutes later:

Shepard: Ann what are you doing here?

Modifié par masster blaster, 01 décembre 2012 - 08:08 .

[dreamgazer]

masster blaster wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Eh, a case actually can be made for Shepard being immune to indoctrination, though I don't agree with it. If s/he can withstand the Prothean beacon's content and have it ciphered without dying, then perhaps Shepard's mental will is sturdy enough to not ever have to deal with the taint. 

I dunno, I think it's ridiculous to think Shep, a regular organic, would be completely immune. It's like saying someone can't get a cold.

Shepard is just a regular soldier, not special right. He can't become Indoctrinated at the end because he/she is just a regular Soldier. He/she even tells Anderson/everyone that " I am just a soldier"

A soldier who, as stated, endured some hefty mental manipulation and came away unscathed. 

[masster blaster]

dreamgazer wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Eh, a case actually can be made for Shepard being immune to indoctrination, though I don't agree with it. If s/he can withstand the Prothean beacon's content and have it ciphered without dying, then perhaps Shepard's mental will is sturdy enough to not ever have to deal with the taint. 

I dunno, I think it's ridiculous to think Shep, a regular organic, would be completely immune. It's like saying someone can't get a cold.

Shepard is just a regular soldier, not special right. He can't become Indoctrinated at the end because he/she is just a regular Soldier. He/she even tells Anderson/everyone that " I am just a soldier"

A soldier who, as stated, endured some hefty mental manipulation and came away unscathed. 

Until he/she saw 1 child die, and everything changed, and Joker tells Shepard that he/she is under more stress than the skilin Blitzs. And that was after Thessia fall to the reapers.

Modifié par masster blaster, 01 décembre 2012 - 08:10 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Something I just cooked up in another thread and wanted to leave here:

I think I just managed to make sense of the endings from a literal perspective. I think I managed to cover almost all plot holes and oddities from a literal perspective. My conclusion does involve indoctrination, but not the IT. My conclusion is that the endings are literal.


Did the reapers try to indoctrinate Shepard? Yes, I think they did. But it's not Harbinger that plays the key role in Shepards indoctrination, it's The Illusive Man that has to do the job.

The Illusive Man no doubt tried to indoctrinate Shepard on the Citadel. Rapid indoctrination that is. TIM tried to assume direct control over Shepard (and almost succeeded, he managed to make Shepard pull the trigger on Anderson). At the same time he tried to persuade Shepard to see things from his point of view.
Whether TIM was acting on his own or on behalf of the reapers is unknown. Both is possible I suppose. However, I think that TIM was acting on behalf of the reapers.

TIM was the last barrier between Shepard and the Catalyst. He was the reapers last hope to stop Shepard from docking the Crucible to the Citadel. Alas, TIM failed and Shepard defied all odds and managed to get the Crucible docked to the Citadel. Then the elevator is activated and takes Shepard to the decision chamber. But who or what activated the elevator ride up tot he Catalyst chamber?

A lot of you folks believe that it's the Catalyst that activates the elevator and takes Shepard to the decision chamber, but I think this is not true. I think it's the docking of the Crucible activates the elevator. Or maybe even something else. But is is most certainly not the Catalyst himself that activates the elevator ride up.

Consider this: If you have low EMS, the Catalyst asks Shepard: "Why are you here?"

Why would the Catalyst even ask this if he supposedly just took Shepard there himself? The only logical answer is that the Catalyst didn't take Shepard up but something else did (the Crucible perhaps?).


This makes me believe that The Illusive Man was the last barrier between Shepard and the Catalyst. After the Illusive Man was dealt with there was nothing left to stop Shepard from docking and activating the Crucible. At this point the Catalyst didn't have much of a choice anymore. Shepard was about to use the Crucible and the Catalyst knew it. All he could do now is talk to Shepard, explain things and try to convince Shepard to pick the option that he preferred.

The Catalyst obviously doesn't want the reapers to be destroyed, because he believes the reapers are the solution to the organics v.s synthetics problem. So he hopes that Shepard picks a solution that doesn't destroy the reapers (Control or Synthesis).
Synthesis is obviously his preferred solution, as Synthesis is what he tried to achieve himself (but sort of failed, because he admits that the reapers aren't the perfect form of synthesis). He believes Synthesis is the best solution, that much is obvious.

But alas, it's not the Catalyst that can make the decision, only Shepard can. All the Catalyst could do is voice his opinion on the 3 available solutions and hope Shepard will pick the best solution. It's up to the player whether he agrees with the Catalyst or not. All 3 decisions will end the cycle though and all 3 decisions will bring the story to an end.



Folks, I think I just managed to make (almost) perfect sense of the endings without using the Indoctrination Theory). The only thing that I can't really put my finger on is the elevator ride up to the Catalyst. What caused the elevator to activate? Was it the Crucible? Was it something else? It wasn't the Catalyst though, that much is clear now.