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[dreamgazer]

masster blaster wrote...

And how would Shepard try to communicate with the leviathans?


Shepard: Okay I am going to let you inside my mind now, so don't do anything to my mind/ use my memorys.

few minutes later:

Shepard: Ann what are you doing here?

Shepard went down to depths looking for answers about how to defeat the Reapers, ones that the Leviathans supposedly held.  There's an arguable gap there for lowering one's mental guard. 

Shepard goes into battle with the Reapers knowing about their mental manipulation, and keeps that guard up at all times. 

As far as the child goes, well, we know the two sides of that coin.  I see intent there, but others simply think it's forced emotional railroading. 

[BatmanTurian]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Something I just cooked up in another thread and wanted to leave here:

I think I just managed to make sense of the endings from a literal perspective. I think I managed to cover almost all plot holes and oddities from a literal perspective. My conclusion does involve indoctrination, but not the IT. My conclusion is that the endings are literal.


Did the reapers try to indoctrinate Shepard? Yes, I think they did. But it's not Harbinger that plays the key role in Shepards indoctrination, it's The Illusive Man that has to do the job.

The Illusive Man no doubt tried to indoctrinate Shepard on the Citadel. Rapid indoctrination that is. TIM tried to assume direct control over Shepard (and almost succeeded, he managed to make Shepard pull the trigger on Anderson). At the same time he tried to persuade Shepard to see things from his point of view.
Whether TIM was acting on his own or on behalf of the reapers is unknown. Both is possible I suppose. However, I think that TIM was acting on behalf of the reapers.

TIM was the last barrier between Shepard and the Catalyst. He was the reapers last hope to stop Shepard from docking the Crucible to the Citadel. Alas, TIM failed and Shepard defied all odds and managed to get the Crucible docked to the Citadel. Then the elevator is activated and takes Shepard to the decision chamber. But who or what activated the elevator ride up tot he Catalyst chamber?

A lot of you folks believe that it's the Catalyst that activates the elevator and takes Shepard to the decision chamber, but I think this is not true. I think it's the docking of the Crucible activates the elevator. Or maybe even something else. But is is most certainly not the Catalyst himself that activates the elevator ride up.

Consider this: If you have low EMS, the Catalyst asks Shepard: "Why are you here?"

Why would the Catalyst even ask this if he supposedly just took Shepard there himself? The only logical answer is that the Catalyst didn't take Shepard up but something else did (the Crucible perhaps?).


This makes me believe that The Illusive Man was the last barrier between Shepard and the Catalyst. After the Illusive Man was dealt with there was nothing left to stop Shepard from docking and activating the Crucible. At this point the Catalyst didn't have much of a choice anymore. Shepard was about to use the Crucible and the Catalyst knew it. All he could do now is talk to Shepard, explain things and try to convince Shepard to pick the option that he preferred.

The Catalyst obviously doesn't want the reapers to be destroyed, because he believes the reapers are the solution to the organics v.s synthetics problem. So he hopes that Shepard picks a solution that doesn't destroy the reapers (Control or Synthesis).
Synthesis is obviously his preferred solution, as Synthesis is what he tried to achieve himself (but sort of failed, because he admits that the reapers aren't the perfect form of synthesis). He believes Synthesis is the best solution, that much is obvious.

But alas, it's not the Catalyst that can make the decision, only Shepard can. All the Catalyst could do is voice his opinion on the 3 available solutions and hope Shepard will pick the best solution. It's up to the player whether he agrees with the Catalyst or not. All 3 decisions will end the cycle though and all 3 decisions will bring the story to an end.



Folks, I think I just managed to make (almost) perfect sense of the endings without using the Indoctrination Theory). The only thing that I can't really put my finger on is the elevator ride up to the Catalyst. What caused the elevator to activate? Was it the Crucible? Was it something else? It wasn't the Catalyst though, that much is clear now.

So how does Shepard survive a 100KT nuclear explosion again when ground zero of Hiroshima was only 15KT? I've never gotten a straight answer for this other than a " shield": which can be obviously overwhelmed by much less force not to mention the explosion originates inside the shield.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 01 décembre 2012 - 08:20 .

[hiraeth]

masster blaster wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Eh, a case actually can be made for Shepard being immune to indoctrination, though I don't agree with it. If s/he can withstand the Prothean beacon's content and have it ciphered without dying, then perhaps Shepard's mental will is sturdy enough to not ever have to deal with the taint. 

I dunno, I think it's ridiculous to think Shep, a regular organic, would be completely immune. It's like saying someone can't get a cold.

Shepard is just a regular soldier, not special right. He can't become Indoctrinated at the end because he/she is just a regular Soldier. He/she even tells Anderson/everyone that " I am just a soldier"

A soldier who, as stated, endured some hefty mental manipulation and came away unscathed. 

Until he/she saw 1 child die, and everything changed, and Joker tells Shepard that he/she is under more stress than the skilin Blitzs. And that was after Thessia fall to the reapers.

i think of it as a continuum- indoctrination isn't black or white. it's not like one second you're completely un-indoctrinated and then the next you're fully indoctrinated. it takes time, by definition, and so it's a continuous process. i think that shepard might have more strength of will than the average soldier, and so he can delay the process or fight it more strongly and for longer than other soldiers, but to be impervious? wouldn't that by definition make him a reaper (or a leviathan)? to become fully immune to a process that originated and is carried out by reapers/leviathans, i would think shepard would need to, in some way, be a reaper. and i doubt that having "reaper tech" would be enough to make him impervious.

[masster blaster]

You forget the catalyst doesn't ask Shepard this when you have high ems. " Wake up." it doesn't ask "why are you here?"

[hiraeth]

masster blaster wrote...

You forget the catalyst doesn't ask Shepard this when you have high ems. " Wake up." it doesn't ask "why are you here?"

oh i didn't know that. cool!

[BatmanTurian]

MassEffectFShep wrote...
i think of it as a continuum- indoctrination isn't black or white. it's not like one second you're completely un-indoctrinated and then the next you're fully indoctrinated. it takes time, by definition, and so it's a continuous process. i think that shepard might have more strength of will than the average soldier, and so he can delay the process or fight it more strongly and for longer than other soldiers, but to be impervious? wouldn't that by definition make him a reaper (or a leviathan)? to become fully immune to a process that originated and is carried out by reapers/leviathans, i would think shepard would need to, in some way, be a reaper. and i doubt that having "reaper tech" would be enough to make him impervious.

+1

[masster blaster]

dreamgazer wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

And how would Shepard try to communicate with the leviathans?


Shepard: Okay I am going to let you inside my mind now, so don't do anything to my mind/ use my memorys.

few minutes later:

Shepard: Ann what are you doing here?

Shepard went down to depths looking for answers about how to defeat the Reapers, ones that the Leviathans supposedly held.  There's an arguable gap there for lowering one's mental guard. 

Shepard goes into battle with the Reapers knowing about their mental manipulation, and keeps that guard up at all times. 

As far as the child goes, well, we know the two sides of that coin.  I see intent there, but others simply think it's forced emotional railroading. 

until the end. Shepard agrees that Destroying the reapers is bad, hence " there has to be another way" becayuse EDi, and the geth will die.  Now you have the choice to tell the catalyst okay, or I am not doing this, but your Shepard agrees that " There has to be another way", yet the player can eitherr say hell no, and say screw you reapers, and kill them off.

Also look at Arrival Shepard passed out because of the artifact Rio, and look how mad Shepard is. Shepard can barly stand up. And look how easy it was for TIM to Control Shepard's body. easy.

[The Heretic of Time]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Something I just cooked up in another thread and wanted to leave here:

I think I just managed to make sense of the endings from a literal perspective. I think I managed to cover almost all plot holes and oddities from a literal perspective. My conclusion does involve indoctrination, but not the IT. My conclusion is that the endings are literal.


Did the reapers try to indoctrinate Shepard? Yes, I think they did. But it's not Harbinger that plays the key role in Shepards indoctrination, it's The Illusive Man that has to do the job.

The Illusive Man no doubt tried to indoctrinate Shepard on the Citadel. Rapid indoctrination that is. TIM tried to assume direct control over Shepard (and almost succeeded, he managed to make Shepard pull the trigger on Anderson). At the same time he tried to persuade Shepard to see things from his point of view.
Whether TIM was acting on his own or on behalf of the reapers is unknown. Both is possible I suppose. However, I think that TIM was acting on behalf of the reapers.

TIM was the last barrier between Shepard and the Catalyst. He was the reapers last hope to stop Shepard from docking the Crucible to the Citadel. Alas, TIM failed and Shepard defied all odds and managed to get the Crucible docked to the Citadel. Then the elevator is activated and takes Shepard to the decision chamber. But who or what activated the elevator ride up tot he Catalyst chamber?

A lot of you folks believe that it's the Catalyst that activates the elevator and takes Shepard to the decision chamber, but I think this is not true. I think it's the docking of the Crucible activates the elevator. Or maybe even something else. But is is most certainly not the Catalyst himself that activates the elevator ride up.

Consider this: If you have low EMS, the Catalyst asks Shepard: "Why are you here?"

Why would the Catalyst even ask this if he supposedly just took Shepard there himself? The only logical answer is that the Catalyst didn't take Shepard up but something else did (the Crucible perhaps?).


This makes me believe that The Illusive Man was the last barrier between Shepard and the Catalyst. After the Illusive Man was dealt with there was nothing left to stop Shepard from docking and activating the Crucible. At this point the Catalyst didn't have much of a choice anymore. Shepard was about to use the Crucible and the Catalyst knew it. All he could do now is talk to Shepard, explain things and try to convince Shepard to pick the option that he preferred.

The Catalyst obviously doesn't want the reapers to be destroyed, because he believes the reapers are the solution to the organics v.s synthetics problem. So he hopes that Shepard picks a solution that doesn't destroy the reapers (Control or Synthesis).
Synthesis is obviously his preferred solution, as Synthesis is what he tried to achieve himself (but sort of failed, because he admits that the reapers aren't the perfect form of synthesis). He believes Synthesis is the best solution, that much is obvious.

But alas, it's not the Catalyst that can make the decision, only Shepard can. All the Catalyst could do is voice his opinion on the 3 available solutions and hope Shepard will pick the best solution. It's up to the player whether he agrees with the Catalyst or not. All 3 decisions will end the cycle though and all 3 decisions will bring the story to an end.



Folks, I think I just managed to make (almost) perfect sense of the endings without using the Indoctrination Theory). The only thing that I can't really put my finger on is the elevator ride up to the Catalyst. What caused the elevator to activate? Was it the Crucible? Was it something else? It wasn't the Catalyst though, that much is clear now.

So how does Shepard survive a 100KT nuclear explosion again when groind zero of Hiroshima was only 15KT? I've never gotten a straight answer for this other than a " shield": which can be obviously overwhelmed by much less force not to mention the explosion originates inside the shield.

First of all, it's obvious you pull that number out of your lower-behind.

Second: In the EC this got fixed. The Citadel no longer blows up, it just gets damaged. This should answer your question. There is no 100KT nuclear explosion. The breathing scene of Shepard is on the Citadel, a damaged Citadel, but not a completely destroyed Citadel.

[The Heretic of Time]

masster blaster wrote...

You forget the catalyst doesn't ask Shepard this when you have high ems. " Wake up." it doesn't ask "why are you here?"

it doesn't matter. The fact that he does ask this if you have low EMS strongly suggests that he isn't the one that took Shepard up to the decision chamber.

[hukbum]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

The breathing scene of Shepard is on the Citadel, a damaged Citadel, but not a completely destroyed Citadel.

And you know that because ...?

[masster blaster]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Something I just cooked up in another thread and wanted to leave here:

I think I just managed to make sense of the endings from a literal perspective. I think I managed to cover almost all plot holes and oddities from a literal perspective. My conclusion does involve indoctrination, but not the IT. My conclusion is that the endings are literal.


Did the reapers try to indoctrinate Shepard? Yes, I think they did. But it's not Harbinger that plays the key role in Shepards indoctrination, it's The Illusive Man that has to do the job.

The Illusive Man no doubt tried to indoctrinate Shepard on the Citadel. Rapid indoctrination that is. TIM tried to assume direct control over Shepard (and almost succeeded, he managed to make Shepard pull the trigger on Anderson). At the same time he tried to persuade Shepard to see things from his point of view.
Whether TIM was acting on his own or on behalf of the reapers is unknown. Both is possible I suppose. However, I think that TIM was acting on behalf of the reapers.

TIM was the last barrier between Shepard and the Catalyst. He was the reapers last hope to stop Shepard from docking the Crucible to the Citadel. Alas, TIM failed and Shepard defied all odds and managed to get the Crucible docked to the Citadel. Then the elevator is activated and takes Shepard to the decision chamber. But who or what activated the elevator ride up tot he Catalyst chamber?

A lot of you folks believe that it's the Catalyst that activates the elevator and takes Shepard to the decision chamber, but I think this is not true. I think it's the docking of the Crucible activates the elevator. Or maybe even something else. But is is most certainly not the Catalyst himself that activates the elevator ride up.

Consider this: If you have low EMS, the Catalyst asks Shepard: "Why are you here?"

Why would the Catalyst even ask this if he supposedly just took Shepard there himself? The only logical answer is that the Catalyst didn't take Shepard up but something else did (the Crucible perhaps?).


This makes me believe that The Illusive Man was the last barrier between Shepard and the Catalyst. After the Illusive Man was dealt with there was nothing left to stop Shepard from docking and activating the Crucible. At this point the Catalyst didn't have much of a choice anymore. Shepard was about to use the Crucible and the Catalyst knew it. All he could do now is talk to Shepard, explain things and try to convince Shepard to pick the option that he preferred.

The Catalyst obviously doesn't want the reapers to be destroyed, because he believes the reapers are the solution to the organics v.s synthetics problem. So he hopes that Shepard picks a solution that doesn't destroy the reapers (Control or Synthesis).
Synthesis is obviously his preferred solution, as Synthesis is what he tried to achieve himself (but sort of failed, because he admits that the reapers aren't the perfect form of synthesis). He believes Synthesis is the best solution, that much is obvious.

But alas, it's not the Catalyst that can make the decision, only Shepard can. All the Catalyst could do is voice his opinion on the 3 available solutions and hope Shepard will pick the best solution. It's up to the player whether he agrees with the Catalyst or not. All 3 decisions will end the cycle though and all 3 decisions will bring the story to an end.



Folks, I think I just managed to make (almost) perfect sense of the endings without using the Indoctrination Theory). The only thing that I can't really put my finger on is the elevator ride up to the Catalyst. What caused the elevator to activate? Was it the Crucible? Was it something else? It wasn't the Catalyst though, that much is clear now.

So how does Shepard survive a 100KT nuclear explosion again when groind zero of Hiroshima was only 15KT? I've never gotten a straight answer for this other than a " shield": which can be obviously overwhelmed by much less force not to mention the explosion originates inside the shield.

First of all, it's obvious you pull that number out of your lower-behind.

Second: In the EC this got fixed. The Citadel no longer blows up, it just gets damaged. This should answer your question. There is no 100KT nuclear explosion. The breathing scene of Shepard is on the Citadel, a damaged Citadel, but not a completely destroyed Citadel.

Bioware never said where the Breath scene takes place, nor in the files it says " Shepard is on the Citadle" That goes for on Earth to.  you can only specluat where it takes place.

[RavenEyry]

MassEffectFShep wrote...

i think of it as a continuum- indoctrination isn't black or white. it's not like one second you're completely un-indoctrinated and then the next you're fully indoctrinated. it takes time, by definition, and so it's a continuous process.

I agree completely. Rapid indoc makes crazed puppets but slow subtle indoc merely alters your perception and way of thinking around to how the reapers want, like with Saren and TIM.

[hiraeth]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Second: In the EC this got fixed. The Citadel no longer blows up, it just gets damaged. This should answer your question. There is no 100KT nuclear explosion. The breathing scene of Shepard is on the Citadel, a damaged Citadel, but not a completely destroyed Citadel.

Wait, I'm confused. Even if the Citadel itself, as a whole station, doesn't blow up, that doesn't mean that there aren't any explosions within the Citadel. Doesn't the destroy tube still explode after Shepard shoots it in the EC? This explosion, though not the same magnitude as an explosion that would take out the entire Citadel, is still enough to kill a single, already-wounded, in-ridiculously-close-proximity-to-the-tube man...right?

[masster blaster]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

You forget the catalyst doesn't ask Shepard this when you have high ems. " Wake up." it doesn't ask "why are you here?"

it doesn't matter. The fact that he does ask this if you have low EMS strongly suggests that he isn't the one that took Shepard up to the decision chamber.

IT matters because instead of asking" why are you here?" matters because the brats not angry at Shepard. Why is that?

Also you just said um for a person that tells us we right everything off to fit our theory, you do the same.

Modifié par masster blaster, 01 décembre 2012 - 08:26 .

[BatmanTurian]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Something I just cooked up in another thread and wanted to leave here:

I think I just managed to make sense of the endings from a literal perspective. I think I managed to cover almost all plot holes and oddities from a literal perspective. My conclusion does involve indoctrination, but not the IT. My conclusion is that the endings are literal.


Did the reapers try to indoctrinate Shepard? Yes, I think they did. But it's not Harbinger that plays the key role in Shepards indoctrination, it's The Illusive Man that has to do the job.

The Illusive Man no doubt tried to indoctrinate Shepard on the Citadel. Rapid indoctrination that is. TIM tried to assume direct control over Shepard (and almost succeeded, he managed to make Shepard pull the trigger on Anderson). At the same time he tried to persuade Shepard to see things from his point of view.
Whether TIM was acting on his own or on behalf of the reapers is unknown. Both is possible I suppose. However, I think that TIM was acting on behalf of the reapers.

TIM was the last barrier between Shepard and the Catalyst. He was the reapers last hope to stop Shepard from docking the Crucible to the Citadel. Alas, TIM failed and Shepard defied all odds and managed to get the Crucible docked to the Citadel. Then the elevator is activated and takes Shepard to the decision chamber. But who or what activated the elevator ride up tot he Catalyst chamber?

A lot of you folks believe that it's the Catalyst that activates the elevator and takes Shepard to the decision chamber, but I think this is not true. I think it's the docking of the Crucible activates the elevator. Or maybe even something else. But is is most certainly not the Catalyst himself that activates the elevator ride up.

Consider this: If you have low EMS, the Catalyst asks Shepard: "Why are you here?"

Why would the Catalyst even ask this if he supposedly just took Shepard there himself? The only logical answer is that the Catalyst didn't take Shepard up but something else did (the Crucible perhaps?).


This makes me believe that The Illusive Man was the last barrier between Shepard and the Catalyst. After the Illusive Man was dealt with there was nothing left to stop Shepard from docking and activating the Crucible. At this point the Catalyst didn't have much of a choice anymore. Shepard was about to use the Crucible and the Catalyst knew it. All he could do now is talk to Shepard, explain things and try to convince Shepard to pick the option that he preferred.

The Catalyst obviously doesn't want the reapers to be destroyed, because he believes the reapers are the solution to the organics v.s synthetics problem. So he hopes that Shepard picks a solution that doesn't destroy the reapers (Control or Synthesis).
Synthesis is obviously his preferred solution, as Synthesis is what he tried to achieve himself (but sort of failed, because he admits that the reapers aren't the perfect form of synthesis). He believes Synthesis is the best solution, that much is obvious.

But alas, it's not the Catalyst that can make the decision, only Shepard can. All the Catalyst could do is voice his opinion on the 3 available solutions and hope Shepard will pick the best solution. It's up to the player whether he agrees with the Catalyst or not. All 3 decisions will end the cycle though and all 3 decisions will bring the story to an end.



Folks, I think I just managed to make (almost) perfect sense of the endings without using the Indoctrination Theory). The only thing that I can't really put my finger on is the elevator ride up to the Catalyst. What caused the elevator to activate? Was it the Crucible? Was it something else? It wasn't the Catalyst though, that much is clear now.

So how does Shepard survive a 100KT nuclear explosion again when groind zero of Hiroshima was only 15KT? I've never gotten a straight answer for this other than a " shield": which can be obviously overwhelmed by much less force not to mention the explosion originates inside the shield.

First of all, it's obvious you pull that number out of your lower-behind.

Second: In the EC this got fixed. The Citadel no longer blows up, it just gets damaged. This should answer your question. There is no 100KT nuclear explosion. The breathing scene of Shepard is on the Citadel, a damaged Citadel, but not a completely destroyed Citadel.

I did not. Someone calculated it based on the size of the citidel. It's 45 km long.

[The Heretic of Time]

hukbum wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

The breathing scene of Shepard is on the Citadel, a damaged Citadel, but not a completely destroyed Citadel.

And you know that because ...?

I don't know this for sure, but it seems very obvious:

3 reasons:

1) It's the most reasonable explanation. Shepard can't be on Earth because there is no way he would survive re-entering the atmosphere of planet Earth.

2) In the EC we see that the Citadel isn't blown up, merely damaged. This means there is no reason for us to think Shepard is anywhere else than on the Citadel.

3) If you look more closely you see a bunch of black cables around Shepard. If you paid attention in the decision chamber you see that the red tube for the Destroy Ending was connected with those exact same black cables.

[RavenEyry]

And there is very clearly an explosion on the citadel in EC by the way. It was the relaysplosions that were changed.

[The Heretic of Time]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Something I just cooked up in another thread and wanted to leave here:

I think I just managed to make sense of the endings from a literal perspective. I think I managed to cover almost all plot holes and oddities from a literal perspective. My conclusion does involve indoctrination, but not the IT. My conclusion is that the endings are literal.


Did the reapers try to indoctrinate Shepard? Yes, I think they did. But it's not Harbinger that plays the key role in Shepards indoctrination, it's The Illusive Man that has to do the job.

The Illusive Man no doubt tried to indoctrinate Shepard on the Citadel. Rapid indoctrination that is. TIM tried to assume direct control over Shepard (and almost succeeded, he managed to make Shepard pull the trigger on Anderson). At the same time he tried to persuade Shepard to see things from his point of view.
Whether TIM was acting on his own or on behalf of the reapers is unknown. Both is possible I suppose. However, I think that TIM was acting on behalf of the reapers.

TIM was the last barrier between Shepard and the Catalyst. He was the reapers last hope to stop Shepard from docking the Crucible to the Citadel. Alas, TIM failed and Shepard defied all odds and managed to get the Crucible docked to the Citadel. Then the elevator is activated and takes Shepard to the decision chamber. But who or what activated the elevator ride up tot he Catalyst chamber?

A lot of you folks believe that it's the Catalyst that activates the elevator and takes Shepard to the decision chamber, but I think this is not true. I think it's the docking of the Crucible activates the elevator. Or maybe even something else. But is is most certainly not the Catalyst himself that activates the elevator ride up.

Consider this: If you have low EMS, the Catalyst asks Shepard: "Why are you here?"

Why would the Catalyst even ask this if he supposedly just took Shepard there himself? The only logical answer is that the Catalyst didn't take Shepard up but something else did (the Crucible perhaps?).


This makes me believe that The Illusive Man was the last barrier between Shepard and the Catalyst. After the Illusive Man was dealt with there was nothing left to stop Shepard from docking and activating the Crucible. At this point the Catalyst didn't have much of a choice anymore. Shepard was about to use the Crucible and the Catalyst knew it. All he could do now is talk to Shepard, explain things and try to convince Shepard to pick the option that he preferred.

The Catalyst obviously doesn't want the reapers to be destroyed, because he believes the reapers are the solution to the organics v.s synthetics problem. So he hopes that Shepard picks a solution that doesn't destroy the reapers (Control or Synthesis).
Synthesis is obviously his preferred solution, as Synthesis is what he tried to achieve himself (but sort of failed, because he admits that the reapers aren't the perfect form of synthesis). He believes Synthesis is the best solution, that much is obvious.

But alas, it's not the Catalyst that can make the decision, only Shepard can. All the Catalyst could do is voice his opinion on the 3 available solutions and hope Shepard will pick the best solution. It's up to the player whether he agrees with the Catalyst or not. All 3 decisions will end the cycle though and all 3 decisions will bring the story to an end.



Folks, I think I just managed to make (almost) perfect sense of the endings without using the Indoctrination Theory). The only thing that I can't really put my finger on is the elevator ride up to the Catalyst. What caused the elevator to activate? Was it the Crucible? Was it something else? It wasn't the Catalyst though, that much is clear now.

So how does Shepard survive a 100KT nuclear explosion again when groind zero of Hiroshima was only 15KT? I've never gotten a straight answer for this other than a " shield": which can be obviously overwhelmed by much less force not to mention the explosion originates inside the shield.

First of all, it's obvious you pull that number out of your lower-behind.

Second: In the EC this got fixed. The Citadel no longer blows up, it just gets damaged. This should answer your question. There is no 100KT nuclear explosion. The breathing scene of Shepard is on the Citadel, a damaged Citadel, but not a completely destroyed Citadel.

I did not. Someone calculated it based on the size of the citidel. It's 45 km long.

Except that certain some-one forgets 3 very important things:

1) You know the length of the Citadel, but not the mass. It's the mass of the Citadel that matters.\\

2) Not every single part of the Citadel is explosive.

3) We clearly see that the Citadel doesn't completely blow up. Especially in the EC this is very clear. The Citadel merely gets damaged.


So yeah, those numbers don't make any sense and are completely worthless. I'm sorry.

[masster blaster]

Also if the Reapers kill Shepard, then Shepard will become a symbol to the galaxy. In a sense it may cause the galaxy set back, but it will strengthen their willpower because even though Shepard died, he/she died fighting, and accomplish a lot before he/she died.

Yet if Shepard joined the reapers/ Indoctrinated, then the galaxy will think. if a person like Shepard became Indoctrinated, what hope do they have.

[BatmanTurian]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

First of all, it's obvious you pull that number out of your lower-behind.

Second: In the EC this got fixed. The Citadel no longer blows up, it just gets damaged. This should answer your question. There is no 100KT nuclear explosion. The breathing scene of Shepard is on the Citadel, a damaged Citadel, but not a completely destroyed Citadel.

I did not. Someone calculated it based on the size of the citidel. It's 45 km long.

http://social.biowar...17/729#13966277

Restrider wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
I think game mechanics is a bad comparision [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

But a very different comparision and one I have made before is to the Hiroshima Atomic Bomb.

More
precisely take a look at these numbers: The Hiroshima Atomic Bomb´s
actual fireball, like what we see the Citadel beeing engulfed by was
"just" around 400m in diameter, but the heat ignited a firestorm with a
diameter of 3.2 km. The shockwave of the same explosion caused damage to
buildings in roughly the same area.

I know different rules are
in place in space, but the fireball we see is engulfing the place
Shepard is or at least nearly engulfing it and considering the effects
of a fireball "just" 400m in diameter what do people think will happen
to Shepard when the fireball is kilometers in diameter and he is within,
what, 1 km of the center?

Okay guys.
I did some number crunching in my spare time.

I watched
the explosion and estimated the power of it.

 

The diameter of the Citadel (opened) is d = 12 800 m

The net mass of the Citadel is m net = 7,11*10^12 kg

The net mass of one Ward is estimated to be m = 1,422*10^12 kg

See the
image below:
img4.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/3rj23qwyex6.png

The distance between the moving Ward and the inner ring is x = 14 px

The constant to convert px into m is z = 266,67 m/px (Citadel diameter used as reference)

Thus x = 3733,4 m

Time elapsed during the movement t = 3 sec

With x = 0,5 * a * t²  we get

<=> a = 2 * x/t² = 829,6 m/sec² = 85 g (g being Earth's aceleration)


With v = a * t we get

<=>  v (t = 3 sec)  = 829,6 m/sec² * 3 sec = 2488,8 m/sec

Applying F = m * a we get : F = 1,422*10^12 kg * 829,6 m/sec² = 5,9 * 10^15 N

Applying E = 0,5 * m * v² we get: E = 0,5 * 1,422*10^12 kg * (2488,8 m/sec)² = 22 * 10^18J = 5263 MT

And
this is only for the movement of this one exemplary Ward! You would
need to integrate the whole volume around the Presidium in all three
dimensions to get the real number.

If you use a pentagonal
Bipyramid and assume that each edge could be considered to store the
same amount of energydensity such at the Ward, we have to multiplicate
it with 15.

This leads us to a total energy of  E = 78 945 MT = 4 934 063 Hiroshima Bombs.

 *But magic forcefields* --- Sounds legit.

 

References:

Video: 2:58 - 3:01

Net mass and diameter: http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Citadel

TNT equivalent: http://en.wikipedia..../TNT_equivalent

Little Boy: http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Little_Boy

€: Again this is a shot estimation that shows the sheer amount of energy Shepard would have to survive.
+ Formating and Link

You see, we're a lot more goddamn smart than you think.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 01 décembre 2012 - 08:33 .

[The Heretic of Time]

RavenEyry wrote...

And there is very clearly an explosion on the citadel in EC by the way. It was the relaysplosions that were changed.

No, the Citadel explosion is also changed. Take a closer look, you'll see. We see some explosions on  the Citadel, but the Citadel itself no longer explodes in the EC (it did in the original ending).

The slideshow in the EC also clearly shows the state of the Citadel after the Destroy ending. If your EMS is high enough, you'll see that the Citadel is damaged, but still largely in tact. The Citadel tower and the part where Shepard was during the ending sequence is also still in tact.

So it's not that much of a stretch to assume Shepard could have survived the explosions on the Citadel after shooting the tube.

[masster blaster]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

hukbum wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

The breathing scene of Shepard is on the Citadel, a damaged Citadel, but not a completely destroyed Citadel.

And you know that because ...?

I don't know this for sure, but it seems very obvious:

3 reasons:

1) It's the most reasonable explanation. Shepard can't be on Earth because there is no way he would survive re-entering the atmosphere of planet Earth.

2) In the EC we see that the Citadel isn't blown up, merely damaged. This means there is no reason for us to think Shepard is anywhere else than on the Citadel.

3) If you look more closely you see a bunch of black cables around Shepard. If you paid attention in the decision chamber you see that the red tube for the Destroy Ending was connected with those exact same black cables.

Again we can only speculate where the breath scene takes place. Bioware never said the breath scene is on the Citadel, as is the earth breath scene. It's your opinion that Shepard is on the Citadel, as is our opinion that Shepard is on Earth.

And does it say it has the same cables that are on the Citadel no. again opinion not fact.

Modifié par masster blaster, 01 décembre 2012 - 08:35 .

[Restrider]

Census results are up.

[BatmanTurian]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

And there is very clearly an explosion on the citadel in EC by the way. It was the relaysplosions that were changed.

No, the Citadel explosion is also changed. Take a closer look, you'll see. We see some explosions on  the Citadel, but the Citadel itself no longer explodes in the EC (it did in the original ending).

The slideshow in the EC also clearly shows the state of the Citadel after the Destroy ending. If your EMS is high enough, you'll see that the Citadel is damaged, but still largely in tact. The Citadel tower and the part where Shepard was during the ending sequence is also still in tact.

So it's not that much of a stretch to assume Shepard could have survived the explosions on the Citadel after shooting the tube.

When will you get it through your head that Shepard is not quantum-shielded?

[RavenEyry]

There is a large explosion that envelops the entire presidium. Whether the citadel was destroyed or not (I never claimed it was) is immaterial. Anyone stood outside the bottom of the tower is going to be crispy.