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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#57076
Lat2oo5

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

I disagree with Destroy beeing a Reaper choice. The Catalyst is clearly trying to lead you away from the choice and also he dosent say Destroy is a solution when he introduces it, unlike the other two which he refer to as solutions. I would even say he dosent so much introduce it as simply acknowledge the choice's existence.

But most importantly is the meaning, the thought behind Destroy. It is victory through sacrifice, a theme whih has been repeated multiple times throughout the game. We are many times told that in this war you cannot save everyone.

But maybe most importantly is how Indoctrination works. It works by aligning the victims goals and beliefs with the Reapers, but in Destroy Shepard is not aligning with them in any way. He has no desire to control them for his own gain, he will not accept their solution of synthesis. He is doing what he always came to do, destroying them. There is no change of motivation, Shepard is firmly established in the belief that the Reapers have to die.

Well, it is just my opinion. I think I had the same as you before the DLC Extended Ending but, after it, I cannot see the ending in that way because refuse would not have its place, you can really save the Galaxy but you prefer refusing and just die... I see that like you refuse Reapers help at any cost and you die like in the rest of the cycles, or you accept their help and who knows what will happened, if you take the endings literally you have your response. I do not do that and I think there is something more behind them (maybe grades of indoctrination such as if you choose control you are totally indoctrinated, etc). And I chose Destroy although I am not satisfied with the decision.
I have to say I have not played Leviathan DLC yet, so I do not know if that could change my own vision.

Modifié par Lat2oo5, 03 décembre 2012 - 07:50 .


#57077
CmdrShep80

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byne wrote...

I really doubt the ME2 one was a QEC. Theres no point installing a QEC in an embassy when the council is just up in the tower. The communication would be instant just over regular channels. Having a QEC for that would be like me going outside, getting in my car, and driving 10 feet to my mailbox to get the mail. I could just walk there and be equally as effective.


yet i do that sort of thing alot. When the lake's flooded, take the car. When the lake's dry, walk

#57078
CmdrShep80

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dorktainian wrote...

Thinking about artificial intelligence. surely asimovs laws would be used.


A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.
A robot may not harm humanity, or, by inaction, allow humanity to come to harm.

i still don't get this bioware placing all of this importance on AI. And can someone please explain to me how an AI can become a life-form?


it depends on how you phrase the instructions. I once said this:

1-do not harm the creators
2- do whatever is necessary to stop the organic synthetic wars
3- do not destroy life

Just based on how I phrased this it gives the star child permission to accents other beings in the premise of reapers. It gives the starchild permission to harm leviathans except who created the starchild. And of course it gives permission to stop the wars in whatever means works

#57079
BleedingUranium

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Lat2oo5 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

I disagree with Destroy beeing a Reaper choice. The Catalyst is clearly trying to lead you away from the choice and also he dosent say Destroy is a solution when he introduces it, unlike the other two which he refer to as solutions. I would even say he dosent so much introduce it as simply acknowledge the choice's existence.

But most importantly is the meaning, the thought behind Destroy. It is victory through sacrifice, a theme whih has been repeated multiple times throughout the game. We are many times told that in this war you cannot save everyone.

But maybe most importantly is how Indoctrination works. It works by aligning the victims goals and beliefs with the Reapers, but in Destroy Shepard is not aligning with them in any way. He has no desire to control them for his own gain, he will not accept their solution of synthesis. He is doing what he always came to do, destroying them. There is no change of motivation, Shepard is firmly established in the belief that the Reapers have to die.

Well, it is just my opinion. I think I had the same as you before the DLC Extended Ending but, after it, I cannot see the ending in that way because refuse would not have its place, you can really save the Galaxy but you prefer refusing and just die... I see that like you refuse Reapers help at any cost and you die like in the rest of the cycles, or you accept their help and who knows what will happened, if you take the endings literally you have your response. I do not do that and I think there is something more behind them (maybe grades of indoctrination such as if you choose control you are totally indoctrinated, etc). And I chose Destroy although I am not satisfied with the decision.
I have to say I have not played Leviathan DLC yet, so I do not know if that could change my own vision.


The Reapers aren't giving you the Destroy option though. The choices are metaphors and have no meaning beyond that.

Do you want to destroy the Reapers?
Do you want to control the Reapers?
Do you want to help the Reapers?
Are you unsure of what you want, or are unwilling to do what is necessary?

That's all the choices are in IT, they have no further meaning.

What they are, where they are, what the kid says, what you se after; all irrelevant. All you're doing is choosing what your goal is.

Also, every single Shepard, no matter how you play yours, has to want to destroy the Reapers when they enter the room, this is not something the player has control over.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 03 décembre 2012 - 08:06 .


#57080
CmdrShep80

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estebanus wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Um, estebanus and masster, would you kindly kill that quote pyramid? It's rather... large.

As you wish.


masster and estebanus. Thank you for the quote pyramid. You helped us get to this page yay

#57081
CmdrShep80

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Restrider wrote...

Mh.. I think I'll play Slender during one of those late working sessions in my lab, when there seems to be no one in the vicinity, the lights are off and you can hear creepy noises.


you know I'm reminded of the slender men of minecraft every time you all bring this up

#57082
Rifneno

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BleedingUranium wrote...

Also, every single Shepard, no matter how you play yours, has to want to destroy the Reapers when they enter the room, this is not something the player has control over.


Ugh.  I remember trying to tell Xil that.  Like passing a kidney stone via a message board.

#57083
RavenEyry

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Also the dreamworld is most likely a subconcious construction from Shepard, not designed by the reapers. It would be impossible not to give an escape option, even though the indoctrinated part/outside voice (however you interpret Mr. Sparkle) can lead you away from it.

#57084
CmdrShep80

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Restrider wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I always forget that a lot of fighters even have 2 seats...

The newest versions have 0 seats... :)


@masster and estebanus well in ME3 the ground does appear in a different place. It's above you lol

#57085
BleedingUranium

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The Omega soundtrack has finally been pulled out of the files. I'll try to see if there's anything interesting, like the missing track from the end of Leviathan (in my sig). Though, there are 23 tracks instead of Leviathan's 7, which is odd.

#57086
CmdrShep80

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Restrider wrote...

One question:
Do people here have something like an emergency back-pack?
You know... a bag filled with important stuff like:
- first aid
- sth to eat/drink
- flash light
- bowie knife
- a rope
.
.
.

Something you just have to grab if there is any kind of peril (earthquake; flood; major fire; Reaper invasion...)

let's see:  particle rifle, eagle, Geth smg, Geth Shotgun, Krysri sniper rifle (trying to spell on phone). Yep. Seem to have everything for a Reaper invasion. For Zombies, well I just use my omniblade. For quakes and floods I use my biotic shield. For indoctrinated people I use my powers of charm and charisma. 

#57087
dorktainian

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thank god this thread is still going.

#57088
BleedingUranium

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CmdrShep80 wrote...

Restrider wrote...

One question:
Do people here have something like an emergency back-pack?
You know... a bag filled with important stuff like:
- first aid
- sth to eat/drink
- flash light
- bowie knife
- a rope
.
.
.

Something you just have to grab if there is any kind of peril (earthquake; flood; major fire; Reaper invasion...)

let's see:  particle rifle, eagle, Geth smg, Geth Shotgun, Krysri sniper rifle (trying to spell on phone). Yep. Seem to have everything for a Reaper invasion. For Zombies, well I just use my omniblade. For quakes and floods I use my biotic shield. For indoctrinated people I use my powers of charm and charisma. 


Or a Predator shot to the head Posted Image

#57089
CmdrShep80

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401 Kill wrote...

Lets hope that the next "Secretive" DLC will include better squaddie interactions. That was pitiful in Omega.


i liked the interactions

#57090
CmdrShep80

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byne wrote...

Yknow, I never noticed it before, but Kasumi's picture for the suicide mission choices thing looks weird. Whats up with her makeup?

Also, her eyes are... interesting.


they are aren't they. I wonder if she has implants or if she has a visor similar to the one you can give Ashley or vega

#57091
PsychoStockingStuffer

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Heyo. Been lurking on and off for a while now, but I had some thoughts about the recent DLC and was hoping to get some input. I hope butting in like this is okay.

Guess my first question is what's the consensus on the Omega DLC? I tried reading when it first came out but frankly you all post fast and I hadn't developed my theories yet. Is the general agreement that Omega was just a method of reaching out to the shooter ME community, or did you all come up with something else, IT-related?

#57092
CmdrShep80

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dorktainian wrote...

thank god this thread is still going.


oh no!  You're...indoctrinated! (Refers to change in avatar)

#57093
dorktainian

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CmdrShep80 wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

thank god this thread is still going.


oh no!  You're...indoctrinated! (Refers to change in avatar)

but i choose synthesis (sniggers.........)

#57094
BleedingUranium

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CmdrShep80 wrote...

byne wrote...

Yknow, I never noticed it before, but Kasumi's picture for the suicide mission choices thing looks weird. Whats up with her makeup?

Also, her eyes are... interesting.


they are aren't they. I wonder if she has implants or if she has a visor similar to the one you can give Ashley or vega


I think they're just supposed to be reflections in her eyes, so you can see them.


PsychoStockingStuffer wrote...

Heyo. Been lurking on and off for a while now, but I had some thoughts about the recent DLC and was hoping to get some input. I hope butting in like this is okay.

Guess my first question is what's the consensus on the Omega DLC? I tried reading when it first came out but frankly you all post fast and I hadn't developed my theories yet. Is the general agreement that Omega was just a method of reaching out to the shooter ME community, or did you all come up with something else, IT-related?


I think we all expected it to be the least IT-related because it's ME3's LotSB, but there's still some stuff. There's nothing big, unlike Leviathan's ending, but there's tons of dialogue and other small or subtle things that reinforce the themes of the series and IT.

Feel free to share your thoughts! There's no "butting in" here Posted Image

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 03 décembre 2012 - 08:44 .


#57095
gunslinger_ruiz

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CmdrShep80 wrote...

401 Kill wrote...

Lets hope that the next "Secretive" DLC will include better squaddie interactions. That was pitiful in Omega.


i liked the interactions


There weren't any in Omega o.O

Oh! you mean between Shepard Aria and Nyreen huh? I think 401 meant between Shepard an Crew on the Normandy, like with the Leviathan missions.

#57096
CmdrShep80

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401 Kill wrote...

I know this is really off-topic (sorry), but what is the best ME tribute video out there? The reason I'm asking this and not searching it is because it may not be the one with most views, or it may have a special name.


I like these ones a lot. They're awesome. Though you may have seen these. Sorry about the links I'm on a phone and its tough getting these to link or work via phone:

ME saga tribute 
ME 3 this is war 
ME trilogy tribute (ending is fun) http://youtu.be/0DOHadvsVpo
ME trilogy tribute (the music timing is awesome) http://youtu.be/7-CmBBw_9jU
Call to arms pt 1. http://youtu.be/81f-bBKkhGw
joining Shepard pt 2 http://youtu.be/6yvFHJl3YEw
Fight for humanity pt 3 http://youtu.be/xyVaNsUUU4c
Attact on earth pt 4 of 4 http://youtu.be/2vspKQWaGJw

Modifié par CmdrShep80, 03 décembre 2012 - 08:55 .


#57097
CmdrShep80

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CmdrShep80 wrote...

401 Kill wrote...

I know this is really off-topic (sorry), but what is the best ME tribute video out there? The reason I'm asking this and not searching it is because it may not be the one with most views, or it may have a special name.


I like these ones a lot. They're awesome. Though you may have seen these. Sorry about the links I'm on a phone and its tough getting these to link or work via phone:

ME saga tribute 
ME 3 this is war 
ME trilogy tribute (ending is fun) http://youtu.be/0DOHadvsVpo
ME trilogy tribute (the music timing is awesome) http://youtu.be/7-CmBBw_9jU
Call to arms pt 1. http://youtu.be/81f-bBKkhGw
joining Shepard pt 2 http://youtu.be/6yvFHJl3YEw
Fight for humanity pt 3 http://youtu.be/xyVaNsUUU4c
Attact on earth pt 4 of 4 http://youtu.be/2vspKQWaGJw





#57098
CmdrShep80

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If the link doesn't work I can fix them tomorrow night

#57099
dorktainian

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as to why i think Indoctrination theory works, i refer back to an interview with JMS when he was in the process of making B5. Basically he was asked by his collegue John Copeland what the Shadow/Vorlon Conflict was really all about. here goes.....

''Very early on, John Copeland asked me, "Okay, bottom line it for me, what's the war about?" I said, "It's about killing your parents." And his eyes went wide, and I explained, "No, not literally...but at some point you have to step outside the control of your parents and create your own life, your own destiny. That process is inevitable...and if there are indeed older races, and they're interfering, that puts them smack in the middle of that same process." 

''It's not about who has the biggest gun, because there's *always* somebody else with a bigger gun...it's about *understanding* your way out of a problem.''

Modifié par dorktainian, 03 décembre 2012 - 09:07 .


#57100
CmdrShep80

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 I'm reminded of something:

1:50 until the end: