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To clarify, I think the situation is dire for the Reapers, but their chances of loss are not dire.
If anything, if Harbinger is 'Catalyst', he sees it as an insult that he even had to deal with Shepard the Eternal Annoyance.
Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!
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byne
, juil. 30 2012 07:09
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#58102
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Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:17
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Ehh, I still think that having a ending where you beat Reapers without using the Crucible pretty much makes the point of building it moot. I mean, we hire all these scientists to build this superweapon, and we don't use it.
I remember EDI saying on Earth, that the Reapers aren't even using their full power to destroy us. Hence, if they all banded together, we'd be screwed.
I remember EDI saying on Earth, that the Reapers aren't even using their full power to destroy us. Hence, if they all banded together, we'd be screwed.
Modifié par magnetite, 04 décembre 2012 - 06:19 .
#58103
Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:20
Andromidius
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SwobyJ wrote...
It's a long game, I think. Harbinger NEEDS to understand what brought this cycle SO close to defeating the Reapers. It's essential to him.
Definately. From what we know, no other Cycle has even come close to the same success of this one. Even the Protheans, who were much more advanced, fell in a very easy war for the Reapers.
Understanding and countering this would probably be more important to the Reapers then harvesting a new Dreadnought. Might even be worth losing a few, if it means saving more in the future.
#58104
Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:20
BansheeOwnage
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Becausemagnetite wrote...
Ehh, I still think that having a ending where you beat Reapers without using the Crucible pretty much makes the point of building it moot. I mean, we hire all these scientists to build this superweapon, and we don't use it.
I remember EDI saying on Earth, that the Reapers aren't even using their full power to destroy us. Hence, if they all banded together, we'd be screwed.
#58105
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Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:20
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Andromidius wrote...
SwobyJ wrote...
No more proxys. IMO the Crucible ending is as dire a situation for the Reapers as it is for the organic/synthetic (if you manage peace) alliance. Even the loss of ONE Reaper is HUGE.
Even their 'own' troops are proxies, in a way. All perverted forms of current Cycle races.
The closest thing they have to their own troops are the Destroyers - which seem far more numerous. What do we reckon they are made from? Lesser harvested species (note that Harbinger seemed to think all the other races of this Cycle were completely unsuitable - so not even good for Destroyers? ) or leftover remains of the races harvested into Dreadnoughts?
I'm going with 'leftovers without a guiding consciousness'.
Yeah I think, so far, that each real Reaper has a guiding individual sovereign consciousness and personality, even if one that is overtaken by mega-Indoctrination.
So the Destroyer we talk to is really just a member of the flock, utterly robotic in its assertions for a reason.
While Sovereign is in the middle - enough of a personality to be quite evil, but not allowed to be expressive enough to be in charge of everything about itself.
Harbinger likely has the most control than and Reaper has. Yet in the end, its still just a child of the Leviathans - a broken and desperate child.
The word 'narcissist' comes to mind.
#58106
Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:22
TheConstantOne
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I'm busy working on a presentation right now so I'll have to elaborate on the idea a little more later. But I've been on autopilot while working and came to a great thought about the Crucible-Levy Intelligence connection. It has amazing implications if you DON"T assume Harbinger is the Intelligence that started everything. I will agree that it is the most powerful Reaper and the most visible leader...but it was already under control of the Intelligence to start with. It would be redundant to upload itself into one of its tools. They are, after all, serving their function. The experimenter would not need to dirty its hands with a more personal touch.
All this being said, if you entertain this argument, the Int could have been waiting for a cycle to build the Crucible successfully. The Crucible could be a test of a cycle's adaptability. The end scene is definitely a mind hack on the part of Levy but it is still letting Shepard choose his/her fate and the manner in which the Crucible is fired. The Crucible could be what triggers stage 2 of the Int's experiment. Synthesis and Control would essentially serve as either Reaper upgrades or husk implants being distributed throughout the galaxy. In other words, Control and Synthesis advance the experiment to the next level. Destroy terminates the experiment's intended direction.
Whether that means the end of the Star Bieber is another matter...
All this being said, if you entertain this argument, the Int could have been waiting for a cycle to build the Crucible successfully. The Crucible could be a test of a cycle's adaptability. The end scene is definitely a mind hack on the part of Levy but it is still letting Shepard choose his/her fate and the manner in which the Crucible is fired. The Crucible could be what triggers stage 2 of the Int's experiment. Synthesis and Control would essentially serve as either Reaper upgrades or husk implants being distributed throughout the galaxy. In other words, Control and Synthesis advance the experiment to the next level. Destroy terminates the experiment's intended direction.
Whether that means the end of the Star Bieber is another matter...
#58107
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Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:22
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BansheeOwnage wrote...
Because
Not sure what that thing is (the head on it), but it's still the devs call whether they want to have a conventional victory or not. Fans might want one, but it's the devs making the game. They have to decide whether to spend the resources on doing it. Anyways getting off track.
Less conventional victory, more IT talk.
#58108
Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:22
byne
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BansheeOwnage wrote...
Becausemagnetite wrote...
Ehh, I still think that having a ending where you beat Reapers without using the Crucible pretty much makes the point of building it moot. I mean, we hire all these scientists to build this superweapon, and we don't use it.
I remember EDI saying on Earth, that the Reapers aren't even using their full power to destroy us. Hence, if they all banded together, we'd be screwed.
>was about to make an Admiral Hackbar joke
>saw the filename
#58109
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Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:22
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magnetite wrote...
Ehh, I still think that having a ending where you beat Reapers without using the Crucible pretty much makes the point of building it moot. I mean, we hire all these scientists to build this superweapon, and we don't use it.
I remember EDI saying on Earth, that the Reapers aren't even using their full power to destroy us. Hence, if they all banded together, we'd be screwed.
Nah, I think the fact that this cycle completed and built upon the Crucible makes all the difference.
And I still think it does something.
And EDI was talking about ground forces on their position (a specific op), and she's correct, because like a bagillion Reaper forces are specifically on London. It's probably the highest concentration of Reaper forces on Earth, or nearing that.
#58110
Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:23
Andromidius
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magnetite wrote...
Ehh, I still think that having a ending where you beat Reapers without using the Crucible pretty much makes the point of building it moot. I mean, we hire all these scientists to build this superweapon, and we don't use it.
I remember EDI saying on Earth, that the Reapers aren't even using their full power to destroy us. Hence, if they all banded together, we'd be screwed.
1/ That's the point. Its a fruitless waste of resources, which falls right into the Reaper's plans nicely. They'd rather their enemies were building something useless then using the same resources to build more ships and weapons. Or maybe even build something they themselves would use when it was finished...
2/ This bit is more puzzling, but its similar to the way a lot of people play Strategy games. They keep all their most powerful units safely together, not willing to risk losing them. A bit like this trope: http://tvtropes.org/...TooAwesomeToUse
Better to play the long game, in their eyes, and keep their forces concentrated and safe in numbers. Reapers only seem vulnerable when alone - as the codex says, Reapers in formation are immune to many of the tactics used against solo Reapers since you can't flank or overwhelm them.
#58111
Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:24
BansheeOwnage
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It's a trap...magnetite wrote...
BansheeOwnage wrote...
Because
Not sure what that thing is (the head on it), but it's still the devs call whether they want to have a conventional victory or not. Fans might want one, but it's the devs making the game. They have to decide whether to spend the resources on doing it. Anyways getting off track.
Less conventional victory, more IT talk.
Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 04 décembre 2012 - 06:24 .
#58112
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:24
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Andromidius wrote...
SwobyJ wrote...
It's a long game, I think. Harbinger NEEDS to understand what brought this cycle SO close to defeating the Reapers. It's essential to him.
Definately. From what we know, no other Cycle has even come close to the same success of this one. Even the Protheans, who were much more advanced, fell in a very easy war for the Reapers.
Understanding and countering this would probably be more important to the Reapers then harvesting a new Dreadnought. Might even be worth losing a few, if it means saving more in the future.
Hmmm... the Prothians lasted decades.
Their civilization though? Yeah, I'd agree there.
It's more that the Prothians lasted a very long time, but couldn't do so much WITH that time.
This cycles has a lot LESS time, but many chances to do a lot more WITH that time.
#58113
Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:24
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Wow. Sucks to be you.byne wrote...
BansheeOwnage wrote...
Becausemagnetite wrote...
Ehh, I still think that having a ending where you beat Reapers without using the Crucible pretty much makes the point of building it moot. I mean, we hire all these scientists to build this superweapon, and we don't use it.
I remember EDI saying on Earth, that the Reapers aren't even using their full power to destroy us. Hence, if they all banded together, we'd be screwed.
>was about to make an Admiral Hackbar joke
>saw the filename
#58114
Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:25
byne
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BansheeOwnage wrote...
Wow. Sucks to be you.
Indeed it does!
#58115
Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:26
dorktainian
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sympathy for the reapers? what next? kai leng up for best villain?
i liked the idea that actually the crucible is needed. the importance attached to one piece of equipment that nobody has any idea what it does? always struck me about what a mindblowingly stupid idea that was. seriously warning flags should be flying high here. a group of races gather all their resources together to build something which no one has any idea how it works or what it does? hello. indoctrinated! it's like watching lemmings throwing themselves off a cliff. reaper victory is inevitable. why not build what the reapers want you to build? great idea. while you're at it why not just save them the trouble and pulp yourself while you're at it?
i liked the idea that actually the crucible is needed. the importance attached to one piece of equipment that nobody has any idea what it does? always struck me about what a mindblowingly stupid idea that was. seriously warning flags should be flying high here. a group of races gather all their resources together to build something which no one has any idea how it works or what it does? hello. indoctrinated! it's like watching lemmings throwing themselves off a cliff. reaper victory is inevitable. why not build what the reapers want you to build? great idea. while you're at it why not just save them the trouble and pulp yourself while you're at it?
#58116
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:26
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TheConstantOne wrote...
I'm busy working on a presentation right now so I'll have to elaborate on the idea a little more later. But I've been on autopilot while working and came to a great thought about the Crucible-Levy Intelligence connection. It has amazing implications if you DON"T assume Harbinger is the Intelligence that started everything. I will agree that it is the most powerful Reaper and the most visible leader...but it was already under control of the Intelligence to start with. It would be redundant to upload itself into one of its tools. They are, after all, serving their function. The experimenter would not need to dirty its hands with a more personal touch.
All this being said, if you entertain this argument, the Int could have been waiting for a cycle to build the Crucible successfully. The Crucible could be a test of a cycle's adaptability. The end scene is definitely a mind hack on the part of Levy but it is still letting Shepard choose his/her fate and the manner in which the Crucible is fired. The Crucible could be what triggers stage 2 of the Int's experiment. Synthesis and Control would essentially serve as either Reaper upgrades or husk implants being distributed throughout the galaxy. In other words, Control and Synthesis advance the experiment to the next level. Destroy terminates the experiment's intended direction.
Whether that means the end of the Star Bieber is another matter...
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Harbinger_%28Collector%29/Battle_Quotes
I'm more sure that Harbinger is the Great Mad Scientist, than an AI on the Citadel.
#58117
Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:29
TheConstantOne
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SwobyJ wrote...
TheConstantOne wrote...
I'm busy working on a presentation right now so I'll have to elaborate on the idea a little more later. But I've been on autopilot while working and came to a great thought about the Crucible-Levy Intelligence connection. It has amazing implications if you DON"T assume Harbinger is the Intelligence that started everything. I will agree that it is the most powerful Reaper and the most visible leader...but it was already under control of the Intelligence to start with. It would be redundant to upload itself into one of its tools. They are, after all, serving their function. The experimenter would not need to dirty its hands with a more personal touch.
All this being said, if you entertain this argument, the Int could have been waiting for a cycle to build the Crucible successfully. The Crucible could be a test of a cycle's adaptability. The end scene is definitely a mind hack on the part of Levy but it is still letting Shepard choose his/her fate and the manner in which the Crucible is fired. The Crucible could be what triggers stage 2 of the Int's experiment. Synthesis and Control would essentially serve as either Reaper upgrades or husk implants being distributed throughout the galaxy. In other words, Control and Synthesis advance the experiment to the next level. Destroy terminates the experiment's intended direction.
Whether that means the end of the Star Bieber is another matter...
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Harbinger_%28Collector%29/Battle_Quotes
I'm more sure that Harbinger is the Great Mad Scientist, than an AI on the Citadel.
Well we can certainly agree that,
Modifié par TheConstantOne, 04 décembre 2012 - 06:29 .
#58118
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:29
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Andromidius wrote...
magnetite wrote...
Ehh, I still think that having a ending where you beat Reapers without using the Crucible pretty much makes the point of building it moot. I mean, we hire all these scientists to build this superweapon, and we don't use it.
I remember EDI saying on Earth, that the Reapers aren't even using their full power to destroy us. Hence, if they all banded together, we'd be screwed.
1/ That's the point. Its a fruitless waste of resources, which falls right into the Reaper's plans nicely. They'd rather their enemies were building something useless then using the same resources to build more ships and weapons. Or maybe even build something they themselves would use when it was finished...
2/ This bit is more puzzling, but its similar to the way a lot of people play Strategy games. They keep all their most powerful units safely together, not willing to risk losing them. A bit like this trope: http://tvtropes.org/...TooAwesomeToUse
Better to play the long game, in their eyes, and keep their forces concentrated and safe in numbers. Reapers only seem vulnerable when alone - as the codex says, Reapers in formation are immune to many of the tactics used against solo Reapers since you can't flank or overwhelm them.
Plan A: Keep the Cycle going
Plan B: If Cycle surpasses expectations, have Crucible Plan ready
Crucible Plan A: It fails, haha, Cycle continues
Crucible Plan B: They manage to build Crucible, now we can use it as!....... ____________?
#58119
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:31
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TheConstantOne wrote...
SwobyJ wrote...
TheConstantOne wrote...
I'm busy working on a presentation right now so I'll have to elaborate on the idea a little more later. But I've been on autopilot while working and came to a great thought about the Crucible-Levy Intelligence connection. It has amazing implications if you DON"T assume Harbinger is the Intelligence that started everything. I will agree that it is the most powerful Reaper and the most visible leader...but it was already under control of the Intelligence to start with. It would be redundant to upload itself into one of its tools. They are, after all, serving their function. The experimenter would not need to dirty its hands with a more personal touch.
All this being said, if you entertain this argument, the Int could have been waiting for a cycle to build the Crucible successfully. The Crucible could be a test of a cycle's adaptability. The end scene is definitely a mind hack on the part of Levy but it is still letting Shepard choose his/her fate and the manner in which the Crucible is fired. The Crucible could be what triggers stage 2 of the Int's experiment. Synthesis and Control would essentially serve as either Reaper upgrades or husk implants being distributed throughout the galaxy. In other words, Control and Synthesis advance the experiment to the next level. Destroy terminates the experiment's intended direction.
Whether that means the end of the Star Bieber is another matter...
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Harbinger_%28Collector%29/Battle_Quotes
I'm more sure that Harbinger is the Great Mad Scientist, than an AI on the Citadel.
Well we can certainly agree that,theHarbinger or not, this thing is NOT on the Citadel, and is NOT a sparkly glowy Anakin that the robot chicken Jar Jar would be proud of
“Your worlds will become our laboratories.”
“We are your genetic destiny."
“You do not yet comprehend your place in things.”
“We are the Harbinger of your perfection.”
“You are ignorant, we are knowing.”
“We are the Harbinger of your ascendance.”
“You have merely delayed the inevitable.”
“The experiments will continue, Shepard.”
“Take what is useful, destroy the rest.”
“Progress cannot be halted.”
“We are the Harbinger of your destiny.”
Nah, he's not in charge of anything.
Modifié par SwobyJ, 04 décembre 2012 - 06:32 .
#58120
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Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:33
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BansheeOwnage wrote...
It's a trap...
Shepard: The Reapers built the relays. it's all part of the same trap!
TIM: That's what they want you to believe.
TIM: And the Reapers will do the same for us again, a thousand fold, but... *long pause*
[Oily shadows, headaches, and buzzing noises]
TIM: Only if we can harness their ability to control.
It's so obvious. Hehe.
#58121
Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:34
dorktainian
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always thought star brat was sovereign. make sense why sovereign powered down suddenly when his avatar was killed. he had left the building for his new home on the citadel.
#58122
Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:36
dorktainian
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oh and sovereign is another word for ruler. just sayin.
#58123
Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:38
TheConstantOne
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SwobyJ wrote...
TheConstantOne wrote...
SwobyJ wrote...
TheConstantOne wrote...
I'm busy working on a presentation right now so I'll have to elaborate on the idea a little more later. But I've been on autopilot while working and came to a great thought about the Crucible-Levy Intelligence connection. It has amazing implications if you DON"T assume Harbinger is the Intelligence that started everything. I will agree that it is the most powerful Reaper and the most visible leader...but it was already under control of the Intelligence to start with. It would be redundant to upload itself into one of its tools. They are, after all, serving their function. The experimenter would not need to dirty its hands with a more personal touch.
All this being said, if you entertain this argument, the Int could have been waiting for a cycle to build the Crucible successfully. The Crucible could be a test of a cycle's adaptability. The end scene is definitely a mind hack on the part of Levy but it is still letting Shepard choose his/her fate and the manner in which the Crucible is fired. The Crucible could be what triggers stage 2 of the Int's experiment. Synthesis and Control would essentially serve as either Reaper upgrades or husk implants being distributed throughout the galaxy. In other words, Control and Synthesis advance the experiment to the next level. Destroy terminates the experiment's intended direction.
Whether that means the end of the Star Bieber is another matter...
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Harbinger_%28Collector%29/Battle_Quotes
I'm more sure that Harbinger is the Great Mad Scientist, than an AI on the Citadel.
Well we can certainly agree that,theHarbinger or not, this thing is NOT on the Citadel, and is NOT a sparkly glowy Anakin that the robot chicken Jar Jar would be proud of
“Your worlds will become our laboratories.”
“We are your genetic destiny."
“You do not yet comprehend your place in things.”
“We are the Harbinger of your perfection.”
“You are ignorant, we are knowing.”
“We are the Harbinger of your ascendance.”
“You have merely delayed the inevitable.”
“The experiments will continue, Shepard.”
“Take what is useful, destroy the rest.”
“Progress cannot be halted.”
“We are the Harbinger of your destiny.”
Nah, he's not in charge of anything.
Again, I have to elaborate later. But I see the Reapers as Leviathan husks. They only seem like vastly intelligent AIs because the Leviathans are themselves vastly intelligent. Harbinger is likely the vessel from which the Intelligence broadcasts demands, but Harbinger is itself a slave to the Intelligence and nothing more. I find it strange that the Intelligence would even take a chance with its own functionality by placing itself directly in a warship. Better to broadcast orders from Harbinger while out in dark space.
In short, Harbinger is being controlled from afar, just like the Collector General was...
It's like Inception
Modifié par TheConstantOne, 04 décembre 2012 - 06:38 .
#58124
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:38
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A problem with it being Sovereign is that I saw him as promoting certain ideas that Harbinger expresses in a much different way.
(Assuming that Harbinger is the Intelligence behind all this)
Sovereign is more the outcome of Harbinger doing his stuff.
While Harbinger is the chief personality behind it all. Sovereign is a top dog, sure, but he's still a slave to Harbinger's will. And well, Harbinger needs company so he gathers a 'forced consensus' through all the capital Reapers via indoctrination.
Again, narcissism. Again, bad childhood. Again, father/creator issues. OH MASS EFFECT.
(Assuming that Harbinger is the Intelligence behind all this)
Sovereign is more the outcome of Harbinger doing his stuff.
While Harbinger is the chief personality behind it all. Sovereign is a top dog, sure, but he's still a slave to Harbinger's will. And well, Harbinger needs company so he gathers a 'forced consensus' through all the capital Reapers via indoctrination.
Again, narcissism. Again, bad childhood. Again, father/creator issues. OH MASS EFFECT.
#58125
Posté 04 décembre 2012 - 06:38
BansheeOwnage
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Making a Sovereign-kid video. Maybe I'll be finished it tomorrow?dorktainian wrote...
always thought star brat was sovereign. make sense why sovereign powered down suddenly when his avatar was killed. he had left the building for his new home on the citadel.
