80611 réponses à ce sujet

[dorktainian]

yeah but sovvie dying just cos his avatar lost? seriously? he is the only one fit enough to dock with the citadel cos he is their ruler. he can then issue orders over the relay network to the reapers. he is in effect the citadel. the keepers maintain the citadel till he returns after its reconstruction at the end of each cycle.

[Rifneno]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

I understand that sentiment, but just keep in mind: a conventional victory could be a whole lot of things. Perhaps there is some key weakness at the Reaper base in dark space, which is currently 'understaffed'. Just throwing something out there. It could be so many things, and it doesn't have to boil down to fighting them all one by one. Basically anything non-crucible is more conventional than what we have now.

Fair enough, if you meant something like that. I'm just incredibly sick of this lunacy of beating the Reapers in a straight up fight just by getting everyone to work together. After 9 months, I'm sick of them ignoring everything we know about the lore to keep stupiding this idea back to life.

**** it. I'm letting loose on this stupidity.

Andromidius wrote...

Edit: About Sovereign - he was literally untoucable until his barriers came down. Then he went down pretty damn quick. Disturbing their barriers is probably the only way to beat them, and even that its going to be costly.

And the only reason his barriers came down is because of Shepard destroying his avatar. Sovereign was not unique. The other capital ships are just as untouchable with their barriers and you're not going to find the rest of them in such a compromising position with their avatars. That is the power of a Reaper capital ship. And they have HUNDREDS of them. There were 291 shown in the end of ME2. Someone counted. None of those were destroyers, and that was only what we could see from that quick glimpse.

BansheeOwnage wrote...

We have literally tens of thousands of ships. Plus fighters with thanix cannons. Also, we automatically win the building ships fast enough competition. Reapers build 1 per cycle.

And the Reapers win the blowing your ships the **** up fast enough competition by light years.

"I sacrificed the entire Second Fleet to provide cover for the Third and the Fifth to retreat. Hell, I've presided over the most devastating military defeat in human history."

Go replay the beginning of the game again. Take note of the giant armada over Earth as Anderson and Hackett talk to one another. As the Normandy leaves, look again. It's scrap metal. The Reapers annihilated it. There were thousands of ships there waiting to greet the Reapers. Go back and look at the pre-release trailers, specifically the ANN based one. "Are we talking about hundreds of ships then?" "No, we're talking about thousands actually." That armada got curb-stomped in minutes.

But yeah, you strapped pea-shooter sized thanix cannons on fighters. I'm sure that'll make a difference. </sarcasm>

Let's see how the turians did. They're the ones that mainly did the thanix cannon bit, right?

Vega: Holy hell! They're getting decimated!
Shepard: Strongest military in the galaxy and the Reapers are obliterating it.

Oh ****, that sounds bad. I'm sure the asari lasted more than the first day--

EDI: Asari forces are in full retreat. It is no longer safe for us to remain in this system.

Nevermind, I guess not.

"But if we're all united, we're stronger!" Yeah. And SO ARE THEY. Does it not occur to a single person that brings up the "united forces" speech that the Reapers are spread out all over the galaxy too? Do you think the Reapers are just going to spread themselves into bite sized chunks while you unify? Or maybe they'll take advantage of the fact their FTL is many magnitudes faster and doesn't require static discharge and unify themselves too. Maybe, just maybe, they haven't been successful for a billion years because they don't have less strategic knowledge than the average chicken?

But hey. We can build ships at a fraction of the percentage of the speed it takes them to destroy them. We so got this! </sarcasm>

SwobyJ wrote...

But they're not that powerful. We know that 3-4 of the galaxy's strongest ships (naughts) will destroy one Reaper with concentrated fire. Not several or a dozen, but 3-4.

So bring in:
-Asari fleet
-Turian fleet
-Salarian fleet
-Geth fleet and full force
-Quarian fleet and full force

Oh, so it only takes 3-4 of the rarest type of ship in the galaxy to bring down a single capital ship? Well why didn't you say so! I'm sure we can pull a few thousand dreadnoughts out of our asses. Here's a clue.

"As of 2185, the dreadnought count was 39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 8 human. By 2186, humans construct a ninth dreadnought, and the volus have built a single dreadnought of their own."

That's 85 dreadnoughts for all Council races combined. Does that sound like 3-4 times "our numbers will darken the sky of every world" to you? Because it sure doesn't to me!

And we....'re not confirmed to win, still. Totally. The Reapers are so freakin powerful. They could totally blow us apart.

But we, totally combined, stand on about *even* ground, and I believe that we stand at an even chance of victory, like I think the War Asset screen states.

You say even ground, basic math says we just dropped the soap in the prison shower. I'm gonna side with basic math on this one. kthx.

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Yeah, I think it's a stalemate with high EMS.

Yeah, headcanon's a wonderful thing. Too bad every character that weighs in on the topic is very clear that there's NO chance of victory that way. But happy headcanoning.

[TheConstantOne]

SwobyJ wrote...
*snip*

I think that only Harbinger is a Leviathan 'husk'.

The rest are made in his image in order to appease his galactic narcissism. Their cores are different.

Their arrogance is more robotic than his. Harbinger is the only real synthesis between organic and synthetic, and he had a really really really bad childhood.

(EDI is opposite, in that way. She had TIM create her, Joker to unshackle her... but *Shepard to humanize her*)


And strange? This was the Intelligence that destroyed the Leviathans in order to fulfil its mission. Strange is an understatement.

They could still be Leviathan husks in function, even if not with true genetics.  Hell, for all we know, some Leviathan DNA is mixed in with the other Reapers.  Brutes are a prime example that the Reapers aren't a novice to mixing genes.  This would also explain why Harbinger is sometimes dissatisfied with some species DNA... the Reapers need organic DNA that can be mixed with Leviathan DNA in a sustainable way.

And while the Intelligence has gone quite crazy, it understands self preservation.  This seems to carry down to all of the Reapers it controls. EDI herself says the Reapers only care about self-preservation.  So, I say again: I very much doubt that the Intelligence resides directly in Harbinger.  I could be wrong of course but I see that as it putting itself needlessly in harm's way

[Andromidius]

Rifneno wrote...

And the only reason his barriers came down is because of Shepard destroying his avatar. Sovereign was not unique. The other capital ships are just as untouchable with their barriers and you're not going to find the rest of them in such a compromising position with their avatars. That is the power of a Reaper capital ship. And they have HUNDREDS of them. There were 291 shown in the end of ME2. Someone counted. None of those were destroyers, and that was only what we could see from that quick glimpse.

Oh, I agree.  I'm just saying that to beat them 'conventionally' we'd need to take those barriers out of the picture.  Which isn't likely.

And my 10% chance of victory estimate was only against the Reapers in the Sol System.  After that, the Cycle's fleets are practically wiped out, and there's still hundreds of Reapers left.  I think there's maybe 50 Reapers around Earth, at a glance.

[TheConstantOne]

SwobyJ wrote...

TheConstantOne wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...
*snip*

I think that only Harbinger is a Leviathan 'husk'.

The rest are made in his image in order to appease his galactic narcissism. Their cores are different.

Their arrogance is more robotic than his. Harbinger is the only real synthesis between organic and synthetic, and he had a really really really bad childhood.

(EDI is opposite, in that way. She had TIM create her, Joker to unshackle her... but *Shepard to humanize her*)


And strange? This was the Intelligence that destroyed the Leviathans in order to fulfil its mission. Strange is an understatement.

They could still be Leviathan husks in function, even if not with true genetics.  Hell, for all we know, some Leviathan DNA is mixed in with the other Reapers.  Brutes are a prime example that the Reapers aren't a novice to mixing genes.  This would also explain why Harbinger is sometimes dissatisfied with some species DNA... the Reapers need organic DNA that can be mixed with Leviathan DNA in a sustainable way.

And while the Intelligence has gone quite crazy, it understands self preservation.  This seems to carry down to all of the Reapers it controls. EDI herself says the Reapers only care about self-preservation.  So, I say again: I very much doubt that the Intelligence resides directly in Harbinger.  I could be wrong of course but I see that as it putting itself needlessly in harm's way

First paragraph, I agree, its a possibility.

Second, no. I think that whatever the Reapers are, their obsession about self-preservation is entirely counterintuitive and even ironic. I immediately think: "Oh of course it would get right in the thick of battle, that arrogant **** of a robot."

We'll have to agree to disagree on the second one then, haha.  Keep in mind that, by my thinking, the Reapers are like the Collectors to the Intelligence.  So, throwing them into battle does not violate the Intelligence's desire to preserve itself.  They are simply powerful and very arrogant pawns

[Andromidius]

SwobyJ wrote...

Lose at Earth and everything else falls incredibly quickly. My positive remarks on the galaxy's chances do not extend beyond what happens in Sol system. And even that requires an ace in the hole to work.

Honestly my best scenerio was always 'give Reapers a bloody nose and make them retreat'.  They are interested in self preservation, so causing them pain might make them rethink their attack.  Which would give the Galaxy time to recover and prepare.

Or more likely, forget it ever happened, and the Reapers come back in another 50,000 years.  Grim.

[Big_Boss9]

Rifneno laying down the truth bombs. Conventional victory via straight up fight is nonsense. And any scenario that involves taking out Harbinger to disable/destroy the rest of the Reapers is a cheap and hollow resolution.

Modifié par Big_Boss9, 04 décembre 2012 - 07:02 .

[TheConstantOne]

SwobyJ wrote...

Except the Collectors have no personality at all, while the Reapers clearly do.

The Intelligence revealing itself at that moment it did is silly and fully supports Bad Writing Theory.

Catalyst doesn't even call itself the Intelligence lol. So regardless, its lying to you and pushing a deception onto you.

Leviathan husks will be default have more personality than a less evolved species husk.  Similar to how a human husk would have more personality than an ant husk, if such a thin existed.  Each group is at such a different level of evolution, you can't define what a lack of personality would mean for something like a Leviathan

[TheConstantOne]

SwobyJ wrote...

"Similar to how a human husk would have more personality than an ant husk, if such a thin existed."

Neither have personality. One screams I guess.

Again, neither have a personality to *us.* An ant would see a human husk as much more evolved and sophisticated.  The same is true for us here with the Reapers.  The most constrained thinking, stupid Leviathan is likely hundreds of times more intelligent than a human.  The Reapers are to them what human husks are to us.

You don't have to agree but there is nothing which proves my perspective idea wrong in this context. Nothing that I can recall, anyway

[Fur28]

How did Shep & Co. knew Harbinger´s name? Was it from "I am the harbinger of your destruction" line?

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Andromidius wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

And the only reason his barriers came down is because of Shepard destroying his avatar. Sovereign was not unique. The other capital ships are just as untouchable with their barriers and you're not going to find the rest of them in such a compromising position with their avatars. That is the power of a Reaper capital ship. And they have HUNDREDS of them. There were 291 shown in the end of ME2. Someone counted. None of those were destroyers, and that was only what we could see from that quick glimpse.

Oh, I agree.  I'm just saying that to beat them 'conventionally' we'd need to take those barriers out of the picture.  Which isn't likely.

And my 10% chance of victory estimate was only against the Reapers in the Sol System.  After that, the Cycle's fleets are practically wiped out, and there's still hundreds of Reapers left.  I think there's maybe 50 Reapers around Earth, at a glance.

I did a count during a paticularly wide shot, there are roughly 175-200 Sovereign class Reapers at Earth during the final attack so it is a significant Reaper force.

Comparitive in regards to Dreadnoughts me and Arian did some math and reached the conclusion that with the perfect Space asset run through we have roughly 200 Dreadnoughts...however that is going by pre-war numbers, no doubt quite a few Dreadnoughts have been lost.

This allready puts us in a bad position going into the battle as we would need a force roughly 4 times as big in terms of Dreadnoughts to match the Reaper force at Earth.

However one thing that cannot be denied is that our force is massive and even if we go down (and we will without interference of some kind) we will be taking a significant number of Reapers with us. It will no doubt be the biggest losses they have suffered probably since the cycles start.

[RavenEyry]

Husks have never shown any more personality than a basic instinct to run around hitting things.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Fur28 wrote...

How did Shep & Co. knew Harbinger´s name? Was it from "I am the harbinger of your destruction" line?

I think they named it Harbinger based on his fondness of the word.

"We are the Habringer of your perfection" and all that.

Or it is related to that Datapad showing Harbinger which Joker hands to Shepard at the end of ME2.

[Fur28]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Fur28 wrote...

How did Shep & Co. knew Harbinger´s name? Was it from "I am the harbinger of your destruction" line?

I think they named it Harbinger based on his fondness of the word.

"We are the Habringer of your perfection" and all that.

Or it is related to that Datapad showing Harbinger which Joker hands to Shepard at the end of ME2.

Do you think the leviathan called him Harbinger because that´s his actual name, or because he took the name from shepard´s mind?

[Home run MF]

Where did the batarians that discovered the Leviathan of Dis get the name from?

[Andromidius]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
Comparitive in regards to Dreadnoughts me and Arian did some math and reached the conclusion that with the perfect Space asset run through we have roughly 200 Dreadnoughts...however that is going by pre-war numbers, no doubt quite a few Dreadnoughts have been lost.

200?  I'm guessing that includes Geth and Quarian ships, am I right?

That being said, we also have Carriers and Cruisers in much larger numbers.  But if you're right with the 200+ Reapers at Earth...  I may have to revise my 10% win chance a bit.  To 1%.

Still, 1% is more then we'd have if the Reapers had their way.  And that can be raised if we indeed do manage to find a weakness to exploit.