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[Raistlin Majare 1992]

TheConstantOne wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

"Similar to how a human husk would have more personality than an ant husk, if such a thin existed."

Neither have personality. One screams I guess.

Again, neither have a personality to *us.* An ant would see a human husk as much more evolved and sophisticated.  The same is true for us here with the Reapers.  The most constrained thinking, stupid Leviathan is likely hundreds of times more intelligent than a human.  The Reapers are to them what human husks are to us.

You don't have to agree but there is nothing which proves my perspective idea wrong in this context. Nothing that I can recall, anyway

Soveregn definetly had more personality than a Husk, Legion pretty much confirms it when it talks of Sovereign in ME2.

In short the Geth interacted with Sovereign and sensed a mind similar to their own, but also different (Reapers made of Organic parts and not just Synthetic) but the most telling part is that Legion says that Sovereign refered to itself as Nazara, it was its name.

A beeing would not name itself if it was nothing but a puppet to a greater intelligence. Nevermind the fact that Geth interacted with its mind and found it intelligent on its own, no hints or anything that it is controlled.

In fact that is telling for both Harbinger and Sovereign, they very much seem their own beeing using "I" instead of "We" at times. Like in ME1 as you start the fight againt Husk Saren: "I am Sovereign and this station is mine!"

That is not the statement of a puppet.

Also there is the Destroyer on Rannoch saying, "Harbinger speaks of you." That sentence serves no purpose if all Reapers are connected at all times and controlled as mindless puppets.

Also if the Reapers were nothing but puppets I ruins them as villians in my eyes. It is the most cheap and lame way to place the responsibility of their countless atrocities upon a single bad guy. If it talks like a bad guy, acts like a bad guy, then let it be a bad guy. If you want us to feel sorry it is controlled then add some hints it is!

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Andromidius wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
Comparitive in regards to Dreadnoughts me and Arian did some math and reached the conclusion that with the perfect Space asset run through we have roughly 200 Dreadnoughts...however that is going by pre-war numbers, no doubt quite a few Dreadnoughts have been lost.

200?  I'm guessing that includes Geth and Quarian ships, am I right?

That being said, we also have Carriers and Cruisers in much larger numbers.  But if you're right with the 200+ Reapers at Earth...  I may have to revise my 10% win chance a bit.  To 1%.

Still, 1% is more then we'd have if the Reapers had their way.  And that can be raised if we indeed do manage to find a weakness to exploit.

It is Geth and Quarians, pretty much going by the fact that not beeing subjected to the treaty the Geth have had no limit on the number of Dreadnoughts they could construct. Also a few Batarian Dreadnoughts survived as we are told in the asset.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Home run MF wrote...

Where did the batarians that discovered the Leviathan of Dis get the name from?

Dis is the name of the system it was found in and Leviathan was probably due to the size of the ship.

[spotlessvoid]

Honestly, the Leviathan getting beaten by the AI without Reaper help has always struck me as pretty unbelievable

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Fur28 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Fur28 wrote...

How did Shep & Co. knew Harbinger´s name? Was it from "I am the harbinger of your destruction" line?

I think they named it Harbinger based on his fondness of the word.

"We are the Habringer of your perfection" and all that.

Or it is related to that Datapad showing Harbinger which Joker hands to Shepard at the end of ME2.

Do you think the leviathan called him Harbinger because that´s his actual name, or because he took the name from shepard´s mind?

It is a good possibility that they took the name from Shepard's mind. I even seem to recall some unused files from the DLC revealing Harbinger's true name, like Sovereign = Nazara. So most likely Harbinger is a name applied by Organics and the fact that Leviathan plugged it from Shepard's mind so easily...implications unpleasant.

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Fur28 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Fur28 wrote...

How did Shep & Co. knew Harbinger´s name? Was it from "I am the harbinger of your destruction" line?

I think they named it Harbinger based on his fondness of the word.

"We are the Habringer of your perfection" and all that.

Or it is related to that Datapad showing Harbinger which Joker hands to Shepard at the end of ME2.

Do you think the leviathan called him Harbinger because that´s his actual name, or because he took the name from shepard´s mind?

He also says "We are Harbinger" when his general spawns sometimes.

EDIT: I could be wrong, someone confirm or correct me.

Modifié par gunslinger_ruiz, 04 décembre 2012 - 08:05 .

[RavenEyry]

On Harbinger's name, remember Sovereign was just the name Saren gave to a reaper. It's not like we can go up and ask it's real name.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Honestly, the Leviathan getting beaten by the AI without Reaper help has always struck me as pretty unbelievable

It is mentioned that the AI had full reign over a small army of thralls in order to faciliate its information gathering. Most likely it seized control of some Synthetics as well (as that seems to be a stable of the Reapers) using the fact that the Leviathans ccan only enthrall living creatures against them.

Beyond that the Leviathans seemed pretty reliant upoon their mind control to defend themselves, their reliance upon water, their size and their shape I can imagine making constructing Space ships for them quite hard, much less constructing an armada of them.

[RavenEyry]

But they can kill capital reapers in one zap.

Intelligence arrives with a bunch of thralls. "Prepare to be harvested!" Every thrall's head explodes. "Oh"

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

RavenEyry wrote...

But they can kill capital reapers in one zap.

Intelligence arrives with a bunch of thralls. "Prepare to be harvested!" Every thrall's head explodes. "Oh"

Therefore, Synthetics. Though imagine if that is the case and Shepard knew it confronting the Catalyst:

"We prevent Synthetics from destroying Organics" - Catalyst (i know this not a direct quote, just a quick sum up)
"But you used Synthetics to start this cycle, Leviathan told me so," - Shepard.
[Shifty eyes] "...it was necesary..." - Catalyst.

Also I doubt the Leviathans ability works across the vastness of space (except when a Orb is sufficiently close). So have thralls control ship, blast from range....profit.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 04 décembre 2012 - 08:24 .

[RavenEyry]

They controlled those brutes pretty well considering they "can't affect synthetics"

Modifié par RavenEyry, 04 décembre 2012 - 08:25 .

[BansheeOwnage]

Rifneno wrote...

Yeah, headcanon's a wonderful thing. Too bad every character that weighs in on the topic is very clear that there's NO chance of victory that way. But happy headcanoning.

I get your point, but I'm just saying that only one friendly ship died there and we did some serious damage to a couple of Sovereign class reapers. We haven't seen enough to judge. My main point, though, is just that Shepard achieves the impossible. You can't go through the Omega-4 relay. You can't defeat Saren. You can't beat indoctrination. Shepard does all the impossible things. At least consider that.

Goodnight.

[Home run MF]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Honestly, the Leviathan getting beaten by the AI without Reaper help has always struck me as pretty unbelievable

It is mentioned that the AI had full reign over a small army of thralls in order to faciliate its information gathering. Most likely it seized control of some Synthetics as well (as that seems to be a stable of the Reapers) using the fact that the Leviathans ccan only enthrall living creatures against them.

Beyond that the Leviathans seemed pretty reliant upoon their mind control to defend themselves, their reliance upon water, their size and their shape I can imagine making constructing Space ships for them quite hard, much less constructing an armada of them.

As far as I know they can travel through space without ships and don't rely on water, from the codex:

It is possible that the Leviathans further enhanced themselves cybernetically, allowing them to use element zero to travel through space and breathe air with the use of filtration systems. They might even have modified themselves with biotic amplifiers. In addition, their faster-than-light communication pulses require precise control with technology completely unknown to modern science.

[RavenEyry]

Why are people starting on the conventional victory claptrap again? You're only convincing yourselves.

[BansheeOwnage]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

He also says "We are Harbinger" when his general spawns sometimes.

EDIT: I could be wrong, someone confirm or correct me.

Correct. He gave himself that name. It's in his ME2 codex entry. He also taunts colonists.
Benevolent reapers...

Goodnight for real.

[BansheeOwnage]

Home run MF wrote...

Home Run nice signature as always. Where is that from? Answer it and I'll read it later.

Goodnight. I mean it.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

RavenEyry wrote...

They controlled those brutes pretty well considering they "can't affect synthetics"

Brutes are a combination of Organic and Synthetic parts, like all Reaper force and the Reaper's themselves. Though sure I dont know exactly if they cant control pure Synthetics, I am just looking at it from a logical perspective as i dont see how a purely Organic beeing would use a mind control power to control Synthetics.

It is also supported in the fact that Indoctrination in its standard form (Indoctrination beeing build upon the Leviathans own control) does not work on Synthetics, shown by the fact that the Reapers need to reprogram synthetics.

[dorktainian]

Okies.  On my way to work this morning thinking about the mass effect story and how indoctrination is the answer to the ending of Mass Effect 3.  Here Goes.........(btw i have considered my end position..which has changed..read on)

Sovereign//Noun:       

Definition:  A supreme ruler, esp. a monarch.

Adjective: Possessing supreme or ultimate power:


STAR BRAT.  He says he controls the reapers.  Only (by definition) Sovereign can control the reapers. 
Synonyms:        noun.  monarch - ruler - king - lord – potentate adjective.  paramount - supreme – independent

Harbinger//Noun: 

Definition: A person or thing that announces or signals the approach of another.
The pre-cursor of Sovereign.  Sovereigns main man you might say.  The one responsible for making sure Shepard gets to the Citadel, and the Crucible is constructed.

Reaper//Noun:
Definition:  A person or machine that harvests a crop.  Yay the tools of Sovereign.

Crucible /Noun:  
Definition: A place or occasion of severe test or trial: "the crucible of combat".  A Test.

Chronos: //chronos Phonetic Spelling: (khron'-os)  
Definition: time, a particular time, season.  Such as 'the end of time'

Catalyst/Noun:
Definition:  A person or thing that precipitates an event.  That would be Shepard not Star Brat.

Citadel//Noun:    
Definition:  A fortress, typically on high ground, protecting or dominating a city.  The Citadel a Fortress?  Who for?  Yep you guessed it......... Sovereign.

So Indoctrination is used to make sure Shepards mind goes into the confrontation with Sovereign under-prepared (or so they think).  It happens every cycle.  The Citadel is the center of everything.  Sovereign is the center of everything.  He presents Shepard with three choices.  All of which are WRONG!!!  The only one you would choose is Destroy (if you wernt indoctrinated that is).  The Citadel then uses the power that all the races have put together to end the cycle by activating itself as a weapon... A weapon that is used the destroy all the mass relays.  This leaves all races stranded.  Easy pickings for the reapers.  There is no victory here....only death.  None of the choices were given to shepard....thats the lie.  Huskification or complete surrender to indoctriniation.  None of the three answers are correct.  They are all reaper solutions.  

The ONLY way out now imo is to refuse.  To take the decision that actually we have the right to make our own decisions.  Who are they to be telling us what to do?  The cycle can only be broken when we decide that enough is enough and fight the reapers.  It may take hundreds of years but better to die a free man than a slave under someone elses boot.  

The reapers exist because when the three choices are given, every single time the catalyst picks one of the three.  All three are an easy solution to ending a war.  There are no easy ways out.  We fight or we die.  The answer is (thank you JMS for the wonderful Babylon 5) not to choose at all.  To stand on our own feet.  To say 'No More'  
Notice when you refuse the beam is turned off.  No more Indoctrination beam.

Modifié par dorktainian, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:20 .

[HellishFiend]

 
Choose Wisely - Episode 3 (Digging The Wrong Way)


Hey all! Hope everyone is in good spirits and enjoyed playing through Omega, looking for clues! 

Two months in the making, Episode 3 is finally done and uploaded. Turbo and I took a lot of time to make sure everything was pieced together and presented exactly the way we wanted. As always, we only ask the questions. No where will we tell you what to believe. The choices are yours. Choose them well!

To any planning on watching, I hope you will enjoy watching it as much as I enjoyed making it!

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Dorktanian:

Nice and all, but there is still the major problem that Indoctrination works by aligning the goals of the affected with the Reapers. In Destroy that is not happening, Shepard is going through with what his goal always was, to Destroy the Reapers.

There is no alteration of his goals.

Also there is the problem that the Relays are not destroyed every cycle, just shut down or otherwise changed in a way that makes them unusuable to the cycle and this happens at the very start of the cycle.

It is not a choice made by someone in the cycle it just the Reapers shutting down the Relays and going about their business after wiping the Citadel clean of life (or harvesting it)

[dorktainian]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Dorktanian:

Nice and all, but there is still the major problem that Indoctrination works by aligning the goals of the affected with the Reapers. In Destroy that is not happening, Shepard is going through with what his goal always was, to Destroy the Reapers.

There is no alteration of his goals.

Also there is the problem that the Relays are not destroyed every cycle, just shut down or otherwise changed in a way that makes them unusuable to the cycle and this happens at the very start of the cycle.

It is not a choice made by someone in the cycle it just the Reapers shutting down the Relays and going about their business after wiping the Citadel clean of life (or harvesting it)

 

But it is all a lie.  Only choosing from the choices they give us.  Thats the point.  There really is no choice.  Sovereign (star brat) himself gives you answers that are not really answers.  He is very illusive and non specific in his answers.  As an example Control.  You will lose all that you are but you will control them.  WTF??  If you lose all you are you are dead (or a reaper).  You lose your mind.  Your self control.  Your freedom.  With Synthesis it seems like an ideal solution but of course it is a lie.  The reapers still exist.  The only way to share information with the reapers is to become reapers. (or become a part of organic material harvested into reaper form).  An illusion.  The reapers cannot be trusted.  Destroy is the final insult.  You think you are destroying the reapers but in reality you are destroying the earth. (see low EMS ending)  Everything goes KABOOM.  Any survivors will die slow painful deaths.  Also dont forget the Citadel survives.  We see all the lovey dovey images of the citadel orbiting earth in the extended endings.  Well the Citadel is home to Sovereign.  It truly is his castle.  This makes no sense.  

The beam activates.  It only does this when you accept one of the choices they give you.  In reality they are not choices.  They are all a lie.  Self determination is the key here.  Freedom of expression.  We are all slaves to the cycle.  Time to break free.  Make a stand.  Don't fear the reaper.  The beam needs to be shut down.

Modifié par dorktainian, 04 décembre 2012 - 09:37 .

[Andromidius]

HellishFiend wrote...

 
Choose Wisely - Episode 3 (Digging The Wrong Way)


Hey all! Hope everyone is in good spirits and enjoyed playing through Omega, looking for clues! 

Two months in the making, Episode 3 is finally done and uploaded. Turbo and I took a lot of time to make sure everything was pieced together and presented exactly the way we wanted. As always, we only ask the questions. No where will we tell you what to believe. The choices are yours. Choose them well!

To any planning on watching, I hope you will enjoy watching it as much as I enjoyed making it!

Will watch soon. 

[Gwyphon]

HellishFiend wrote...

 
Choose Wisely - Episode 3 (Digging The Wrong Way)


Hey all! Hope everyone is in good spirits and enjoyed playing through Omega, looking for clues! 

Two months in the making, Episode 3 is finally done and uploaded. Turbo and I took a lot of time to make sure everything was pieced together and presented exactly the way we wanted. As always, we only ask the questions. No where will we tell you what to believe. The choices are yours. Choose them well!

To any planning on watching, I hope you will enjoy watching it as much as I enjoyed making it!

! 

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

dorktainian wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Dorktanian:

Nice and all, but there is still the major problem that Indoctrination works by aligning the goals of the affected with the Reapers. In Destroy that is not happening, Shepard is going through with what his goal always was, to Destroy the Reapers.

There is no alteration of his goals.

Also there is the problem that the Relays are not destroyed every cycle, just shut down or otherwise changed in a way that makes them unusuable to the cycle and this happens at the very start of the cycle.

It is not a choice made by someone in the cycle it just the Reapers shutting down the Relays and going about their business after wiping the Citadel clean of life (or harvesting it)

 

But it is all a lie.  Only choosing from the choices they give us.  Thats the point.  There really is no choice.  Sovereign (star brat) himself gives you answers that are not really answers.  As an example Control.  You will lose all that you are but you will control them.  WTF??  If you lose all you are you are dead (or a reaper).  You lose your mind.  Your self control.  Your freedom.  With Synthesis it seems like an ideal solution but of course it is a lie.  The reapers still exist.  The only way to share information with the reapers is to become reapers. (or become a part of organic material harvested into reaper form).  An illusion.  The reapers cannot be trusted.  Destroy is the final insult.  You think you are destroying the reapers but in reality you are destroying the earth. (see low EMS ending)  Everything goes KABOOM.  Any survivors will die slow painful deaths.

The beam activates.  It only does this when you accept one of the choices they give you.  In reality they are not choices.  They are all a lie.  Self determination is the key here.  Freedom of expression.  We are all slaves to the cycle.  Time to break free.  Make a stand.  Don't fear the reaper.

It is a nice idea, but you got nothing but speculation backing it, in fact it flies in the face of what we know from previous cycles. The Reapers dont offer some 3 way choice, they simply shut dow the Relays and Harvest. End of story.

Also why and how should Destroy, Destroy Earth? In fact the Reapers wouldnt want that since they need to Harvest humanity and how is the Breath scene possible in such a case? Even if Shepard is on the Citadel, the Citadel itself is in low orbit over Earth and if Earth goes boom I doubt anything near it will survive. That includes any Reapers.

[dorktainian]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Dorktanian:

Nice and all, but there is still the major problem that Indoctrination works by aligning the goals of the affected with the Reapers. In Destroy that is not happening, Shepard is going through with what his goal always was, to Destroy the Reapers.

There is no alteration of his goals.

Also there is the problem that the Relays are not destroyed every cycle, just shut down or otherwise changed in a way that makes them unusuable to the cycle and this happens at the very start of the cycle.

It is not a choice made by someone in the cycle it just the Reapers shutting down the Relays and going about their business after wiping the Citadel clean of life (or harvesting it)

 

But it is all a lie.  Only choosing from the choices they give us.  Thats the point.  There really is no choice.  Sovereign (star brat) himself gives you answers that are not really answers.  As an example Control.  You will lose all that you are but you will control them.  WTF??  If you lose all you are you are dead (or a reaper).  You lose your mind.  Your self control.  Your freedom.  With Synthesis it seems like an ideal solution but of course it is a lie.  The reapers still exist.  The only way to share information with the reapers is to become reapers. (or become a part of organic material harvested into reaper form).  An illusion.  The reapers cannot be trusted.  Destroy is the final insult.  You think you are destroying the reapers but in reality you are destroying the earth. (see low EMS ending)  Everything goes KABOOM.  Any survivors will die slow painful deaths.

The beam activates.  It only does this when you accept one of the choices they give you.  In reality they are not choices.  They are all a lie.  Self determination is the key here.  Freedom of expression.  We are all slaves to the cycle.  Time to break free.  Make a stand.  Don't fear the reaper.

It is a nice idea, but you got nothing but speculation backing it, in fact it flies in the face of what we know from previous cycles. The Reapers dont offer some 3 way choice, they simply shut down the Relays and Harvest. End of story.

Also why and how should Destroy, Destroy Earth? In fact the Reapers wouldnt want that since they need to Harvest humanity and how is the Breath scene possible in such a case? Even if Shepard is on the Citadel, the Citadel itself is in low orbit over Earth and if Earth goes boom I doubt anything near it will survive. That includes any Reapers.

 

1.  IT itself is based on speculation - not facts.
2.  What do you think the beam is doing when it activates?  It is shutting down the relays.  Different colours, same result.
3.  Earth is expendable.  They would prefer not to but destroying earth as an act of spite is an option.