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[TheProtheans]

It is based on speculation.

Relevant

Modifié par TheProtheans, 04 décembre 2012 - 10:05 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

dorktainian wrote...

1.  IT itself is based on speculation - not facts.
2.  What do you think the beam is doing when it activates?  It is shutting down the relays.  Different colours, same result.
3.  Earth is expendable.  They would prefer not to but destroying earth as an act of spite is an option. 

Unlike this idea though IT has a mountain of hints and evidence supporting it.

Considering we know nothing of what the Crucible does under the Indoctrination theory, you are just making an assumption, an assumption not backed by what we know. In every cycle according to what we know from the Protheans the Reapers charged through the Relay, captured the Citadel and shut down the Relay's without the use of the Crucible. We know this because Vigil tells us the Citadel fell before anyone even realized they were under attack. The Crucible was never used and thus cannot be involved in shutting down the Relays.

And as fo the last part how do you know that? The Reapers are pretty obsessed with harvesting humanity, blowing up Earth could easily leave them without the necesary people. Also how would Earth be blown up? The Crucible? It seems kinda a waste to use all the energy on that, not to mention that, as I said, blowing up the Earth would most likely take everything around it with it. Destroying an entire planet is not exactly done lightly.

But the biggest problem remains is that from everything we know the Crucible has absolutely nothing to do with the shutdown of the Relays.

[Restrider]

Charlieblacko wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

No kidding, but nobody ever seems to bother. I think it's a prequisite that you have to be inquisitive, logical, intuitive, open-minded, and fairly analytical to entertain our literary theory.

Before I came across IT, which I think was probably only an hour after completing ME3 when it was first released. I'd of easily of said Bioware screwed us over but once coming across it with the ammount of evidence stacked behind it? It seems ridiculous not to believe that IT isn't what bioware intended.. Its just so perfect. (This is coming from someone who was infact indoctrinated by the ending.... Went for control)

What's actually the defenition for knowing that there is something fishy and not trusting the Brat and refusing to choose in the hope for another way to beat the game?

[dorktainian]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

1.  IT itself is based on speculation - not facts.
2.  What do you think the beam is doing when it activates?  It is shutting down the relays.  Different colours, same result.
3.  Earth is expendable.  They would prefer not to but destroying earth as an act of spite is an option. 

Unlike this idea though IT has a mountain of hints and evidence supporting it.

Considering we know nothing of what the Crucible does under the Indoctrination theory, you are just making an assumption, an assumption not backed by what we know. In every cycle according to what we know from the Protheans the Reapers charged through the Relay, captured the Citadel and shut down the Relay's without the use of the Crucible. We know this because Vigil tells us the Citadel fell before anyone even realized they were under attack. The Crucible was never used and thus cannot be involved in shutting down the Relays.

And as fo the last part how do you know that? The Reapers are pretty obsessed with harvesting humanity, blowing up Earth could easily leave them without the necesary people. Also how would Earth be blown up? The Crucible? It seems kinda a waste to use all the energy on that, not to mention that, as I said, blowing up the Earth would most likely take everything around it with it. Destroying an entire planet is not exactly done lightly.

But the biggest problem remains is that from everything we know the Crucible has absolutely nothing to do with the shutdown of the Relays.

 But it does.  It is by definition a massive power source.  Why else would you need a massive power source than to send out a message?  A message to the relays?  The citadel arms open up.  It is targeting the Charon Relay.. the signal will then be passed onto all the other relays and they will be destroyed / stop working.  This happens in all three different coloured endings.  The only ending this does not happen in is the refusal ending.  Refusal is freedom of self determination.  The relays survive.  The message is not sent.

[dorktainian]

or i could be wrong.... btw my theory does not discount IT... rather it re-enforces it. Because the IT defines shepard making the choice at all. He is given a choice. Yes he wants to destroy the reapers, but they know that.

I would love to pick destroy and have shep wake up and be rescued but it's not going to happen is it? Shep only remains unaffected in the refuse ending. The beam turns off and he is alone... On the citadel.

When he wakes up he is on earth or the citadel (my bets earth) and he takes his breath. There is no additional context as to what state of mind he is in. Whether he lives or dies. Is he still indoctrinated? We dont know. Speculation for everyone (thanks Mac)

We get the flash forward to Liaras time capsule after we refuse but are offered no context as to why we are seeing it. People assume we lost and this is for the next cycle. Did we lose? We dont see anything to suggest this. Speculation again.

Who is to say that the Citadel DLC is not a rescue mission to retrieve shep so we can all have our happy moment before finally taking the war to the reapers in a fight to the death?

No one knows.. One persons theory is another persons speculation.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

dorktainian wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

1.  IT itself is based on speculation - not facts.
2.  What do you think the beam is doing when it activates?  It is shutting down the relays.  Different colours, same result.
3.  Earth is expendable.  They would prefer not to but destroying earth as an act of spite is an option. 

Unlike this idea though IT has a mountain of hints and evidence supporting it.

Considering we know nothing of what the Crucible does under the Indoctrination theory, you are just making an assumption, an assumption not backed by what we know. In every cycle according to what we know from the Protheans the Reapers charged through the Relay, captured the Citadel and shut down the Relay's without the use of the Crucible. We know this because Vigil tells us the Citadel fell before anyone even realized they were under attack. The Crucible was never used and thus cannot be involved in shutting down the Relays.

And as fo the last part how do you know that? The Reapers are pretty obsessed with harvesting humanity, blowing up Earth could easily leave them without the necesary people. Also how would Earth be blown up? The Crucible? It seems kinda a waste to use all the energy on that, not to mention that, as I said, blowing up the Earth would most likely take everything around it with it. Destroying an entire planet is not exactly done lightly.

But the biggest problem remains is that from everything we know the Crucible has absolutely nothing to do with the shutdown of the Relays.

 But it does.  It is by definition a massive power source.  Why else would you need a massive power source than to send out a message?  A message to the relays?  The citadel arms open up.  It is targeting the Charon Relay.. the signal will then be passed onto all the other relays and they will be destroyed / stop working.  This happens in all three different coloured endings.  The only ending this does not happen in is the refusal ending.  Refusal is freedom of self determination.  The relays survive.  The message is not sent.

You are missing the critical point. It is made quite clear from what we know of the Prothean cycle that the Reapers did not need the Crucible to switch the Relays offline, hell ME1 reinforces this point by having Sovereign trying to open the Citadel relay without a external power source.

Also the fact that when we see the galaxy map it is not starting at the Charon Relay, but at the Alpha Relay (which has been destroyed mind you) indicates something is wrong. A common interpretation is that what we see is an overlay of Shepards mind, in Control, Synthesis the Indoctrination spreads through Shepards mind from point Alpha. In Destroy it is the opposite, the Relays are shown to be damaged / destroyed because the Reapers influence in Shepards mind is lost.

Also any litteral interpretation featuring the Relays blowing up would mean the end of the Galaxy as Arrival clearly demonstrated what happens when the Relays go boom.

[KyreneZA]

I have two questions today for my knowledgeable fellow ITheorists:

• I have seen mention of different EMS being needed for the breath scene when Anderson lives. Does that refer to where they are both alive and talking after the TIM confrontation, but it seems Anderson passes out/falls asleep/dies anyway? Or something else, and if something else, how does one achieve that?
• How long before the Eden Prime mission in ME1 did Anderson and Shepard know each other, or has their friendship/mentorship only developed since then?

I'm not fond of buying game-related products so have not read/seen all the books/comics/movies, but I know a lot of people here have, so was hoping you could help me...

[Andromidius]

Kyrene wrote...

1/ The former.  Anderson never survives that scene, but if you keep him alive a little longer...  Nothing changes.  But if he dies earlier (by TIM shooting him) you effectively lose 1000 EMS when it comes to whether or not you get the Breath Scene.

2/ Its never outright stated, but I don't think they've served together very long.  I think they know each other more by reputation.  Anderson picks Shepard as his XO on the Normandy, otherwise not much is known (that I know of).

[ElSuperGecko]

dorktainian wrote...
1.  IT itself is based on speculation - not facts.
2.  What do you think the beam is doing when it activates?  It is shutting down the relays.  Different colours, same result.
3.  Earth is expendable.  They would prefer not to but destroying earth as an act of spite is an option.

It's an interesting idea - my main concern about it is the fact that it relies on the Refuse ending, which was not originally in the game and only added via the EC, so I have my doubts that it would have been intended all along.  It may mesh quite well with Puzzle Theory, however.

[Rifneno]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Honestly, the Leviathan getting beaten by the AI without Reaper help has always struck me as pretty unbelievable

Yeah, those squidbastards are not being straight with us. No way in hell.

RavenEyry wrote...

On Harbinger's name, remember Sovereign was just the name Saren gave to a reaper. It's not like we can go up and ask it's real name.

A common assumption, but untrue. It was called Sovereign before Saren got his claws on it. Dr. Shu Qian, a renowned AI researcher, called it that in his data. Saren "obtained" his data (read: murderized Qian and a bunch of other people) and found out about Sovereign that way. The rest, as they say, is history. It's unknown whether Nazara took the name Sovereign himself or if Qian decided to call it that after succumbing to indoctrination. I'm betting the former though.

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Yeah, headcanon's a wonderful thing. Too bad every character that weighs in on the topic is very clear that there's NO chance of victory that way. But happy headcanoning.

I get your point, but I'm just saying that only one friendly ship died there and we did some serious damage to a couple of Sovereign class reapers. We haven't seen enough to judge. My main point, though, is just that Shepard achieves the impossible. You can't go through the Omega-4 relay. You can't defeat Saren. You can't beat indoctrination. Shepard does all the impossible things. At least consider that.

Goodnight.

Shepard is Shepard, Shepard is not the united galactic fleets. Shepard can do the impossible. The united galactic fleets cannot do the impossible.

RavenEyry wrote...

Why are people starting on the conventional victory claptrap again? You're only convincing yourselves.

I don't know, but it's starting to drive me batty. This insanity has NO root of truth in the game's lore. Every piece of data we know says that the Reapers' military force is hilariously beyond ours. Every character that's touched upon the subject has said without a shadow of a doubt that a conventional war cannot be won. Yet people insist on propagating this delusion. Maddening!

[Andromidius]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

dorktainian wrote...
1.  IT itself is based on speculation - not facts.
2.  What do you think the beam is doing when it activates?  It is shutting down the relays.  Different colours, same result.
3.  Earth is expendable.  They would prefer not to but destroying earth as an act of spite is an option.

It's an interesting idea - my main concern about it is the fact that it relies on the Refuse ending, which was not originally in the game and only added via the EC, so I have my doubts that it would have been intended all along.  It may mesh quite well with Puzzle Theory, however.

Indeed.  I still see Destroy as being the likely candidate, mostly based on it thematically being the 'correct' choice that Shepard and everyone else has been talking about all this time and also the fact its the only one with the Breath Scene.

Refuse is noble and all, but Reapers don't respect nobility.  But then they don't seem to respect anything, not even the Laws of Physics.

[Andromidius]

Rifneno wrote...
A common assumption, but untrue. It was called Sovereign before Saren got his claws on it. Dr. Shu Qian, a renowned AI researcher, called it that in his data. Saren "obtained" his data (read: murderized Qian and a bunch of other people) and found out about Sovereign that way. The rest, as they say, is history. It's unknown whether Nazara took the name Sovereign himself or if Qian decided to call it that after succumbing to indoctrination. I'm betting the former though.

Its my guess that Sovereign is merely the English translation of what Nazara means.  Or an English translation of whatever title Nazara gave itself.

Same with Harbinger.  I wonder if any other Reapers have names like that.

[Andromidius]

Rifneno wrote...

Shepard is Shepard, Shepard is not the united galactic fleets. Shepard can do the impossible. The united galactic fleets cannot do the impossible.

So Shepard can defeat the Reapers conventionally all by himself?

/trollface

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Andromidius wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

dorktainian wrote...
1.  IT itself is based on speculation - not facts.
2.  What do you think the beam is doing when it activates?  It is shutting down the relays.  Different colours, same result.
3.  Earth is expendable.  They would prefer not to but destroying earth as an act of spite is an option.

It's an interesting idea - my main concern about it is the fact that it relies on the Refuse ending, which was not originally in the game and only added via the EC, so I have my doubts that it would have been intended all along.  It may mesh quite well with Puzzle Theory, however.

Indeed.  I still see Destroy as being the likely candidate, mostly based on it thematically being the 'correct' choice that Shepard and everyone else has been talking about all this time and also the fact its the only one with the Breath Scene.

Refuse is noble and all, but Reapers don't respect nobility.  But then they don't seem to respect anything, not even the Laws of Physics.

Also Refuse as depcited is a lot of pretty words, but no action to back it up.

[dorktainian]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

1.  IT itself is based on speculation - not facts.
2.  What do you think the beam is doing when it activates?  It is shutting down the relays.  Different colours, same result.
3.  Earth is expendable.  They would prefer not to but destroying earth as an act of spite is an option. 

Unlike this idea though IT has a mountain of hints and evidence supporting it.

Considering we know nothing of what the Crucible does under the Indoctrination theory, you are just making an assumption, an assumption not backed by what we know. In every cycle according to what we know from the Protheans the Reapers charged through the Relay, captured the Citadel and shut down the Relay's without the use of the Crucible. We know this because Vigil tells us the Citadel fell before anyone even realized they were under attack. The Crucible was never used and thus cannot be involved in shutting down the Relays.

And as fo the last part how do you know that? The Reapers are pretty obsessed with harvesting humanity, blowing up Earth could easily leave them without the necesary people. Also how would Earth be blown up? The Crucible? It seems kinda a waste to use all the energy on that, not to mention that, as I said, blowing up the Earth would most likely take everything around it with it. Destroying an entire planet is not exactly done lightly.

But the biggest problem remains is that from everything we know the Crucible has absolutely nothing to do with the shutdown of the Relays.

 But it does.  It is by definition a massive power source.  Why else would you need a massive power source than to send out a message?  A message to the relays?  The citadel arms open up.  It is targeting the Charon Relay.. the signal will then be passed onto all the other relays and they will be destroyed / stop working.  This happens in all three different coloured endings.  The only ending this does not happen in is the refusal ending.  Refusal is freedom of self determination.  The relays survive.  The message is not sent.

You are missing the critical point.(1) It is made quite clear from what we know of the Prothean cycle that the Reapers did not need the Crucible to switch the Relays offline, hell ME1 reinforces this point by having Sovereign trying to open the Citadel relay without a external power source.

Also the fact that when we see the galaxy map it is not starting at the Charon Relay, but at the Alpha Relay (which has been destroyed mind you) indicates something is wrong. A common interpretation is that what we see is an overlay of Shepards mind, in Control, Synthesis the Indoctrination spreads through Shepards mind from point Alpha. In Destroy it is the opposite, the Relays are shown to be damaged / destroyed because the Reapers influence in Shepards mind is lost.

(2)Also any litteral interpretation featuring the Relays blowing up would mean the end of the Galaxy as Arrival clearly demonstrated what happens when the Relays go boom.

 

Sometimes what you see and hear is what is.  

(1)  We see Sovereign dock with Presidium Tower.  We are told that he is opening the gate.  What you forget is that there is a power source there.  Sovereign itself.  We've seen a reaper internal power source in ME2.  Sovereign is using its power to open the gate.

(2)  I didn't say the gates exploded, only a message was sent to turn them off.  The beam activates and turns off the relays.  This does indeed cause some damage (as seen with the EC) to the gates but not irreparable damage.  Not cataclysmic damage as seen pre-EC.  Only one ending does not do this.  Refusal.  

don't get me wrong.  up until this morning i was thinking destroy ftw.  However when you think about it the three choices are not being made on our own. They are all offered to us.  Indoctrination ties into this because shep is in a state of mind to accept that he has three choices when actually he has the choice to be able to fight and to die a free man.  If he pulls the trigger on destroy, he is doing so at the suggestion of a reaper.  

Sovereign: ''You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.''

Everything...every choice is given to you.  They are reaper choices.  They are in effect 'choose which way you want to die'.    You have been guided to this point.

Sovereign: ''Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays, our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire.''   

everthing that has happened is a part of this plan.  whether that be indoctrination or the mass relays or the prothean beacons.  You are offered right at the end 3 choices.  Reaper Choices.  As Harbinger says tho it is all an illusion.  The illusion of choice.  They are controlling everything.  Don't assume we have any say in the matter.  We do not.  The reapers are in control of the cycles.   

Dont assume star brat is doing you any favours.  he is part of the problem.  You need to look past him.  The reapers are still in control of the cycle.






  

[Rifneno]

Andromidius wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Shepard is Shepard, Shepard is not the united galactic fleets. Shepard can do the impossible. The united galactic fleets cannot do the impossible.

So Shepard can defeat the Reapers conventionally all by himself?

/trollface

Look, I'm just trying to make the stupidity stop in as few words as possible.  Don't complicate it.

[dorktainian]

dont end it plz.. we gotta get to 2500 pages at least

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

dorktainian wrote...

Sometimes what you see and hear is what is.  

(1)  We see Sovereign dock with Presidium Tower.  We are told that he is opening the gate.  What you forget is that there is a power source there.  Sovereign itself.  We've seen a reaper internal power source in ME2.  Sovereign is using its power to open the gate.

(2)  I didn't say the gates exploded, only a message was sent to turn them off.  The beam activates and turns off the relays.  This does indeed cause some damage (as seen with the EC) to the gates but not irreparable damage.  Not cataclysmic damage as seen pre-EC.  Only one ending does not do this.  Refusal.  

don't get me wrong.  up until this morning i was thinking destroy ftw.  However when you think about it the three choices are not being made on our own. They are all offered to us.  Indoctrination ties into this because shep is in a state of mind to accept that he has three choices when actually he has the choice to be able to fight and to die a free man.  If he pulls the trigger on destroy, he is doing so at the suggestion of a reaper.  

Sovereign: ''You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.''

Everything...every choice is given to you.  They are reaper choices.  They are in effect 'choose which way you want to die'.    You have been guided to this point.

Sovereign: ''Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays, our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire.''   

everthing that has happened is a part of this plan.  whether that be indoctrination or the mass relays or the prothean beacons.  You are offered right at the end 3 choices.  Reaper Choices.  As Harbinger says tho it is all an illusion.  The illusion of choice.  They are controlling everything.  Don't assume we have any say in the matter.  We do not.  The reapers are in control of the cycles.   

Dont assume star brat is doing you any favours.  he is part of the problem.  You need to look past him.  The reapers are still in control of the cycle.

I am not assuming he is anything but a lying bastard, but facts is that he is trying to dissuade you from Destroy and if this is all in Shepard's head, if this is all Indoctrination, then there is a way out.

Going by how Indoctrination works sticking to your guns and sticking to your goal is that way out. You dont change something if they continue to do what they always came to do, neither are you the master of the choice they made.

But whatever, it is clear we wont reach any kind of agreement on this so let us just let it lie.

[Eryri]

Andromidius wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
A common assumption, but untrue. It was called Sovereign before Saren got his claws on it. Dr. Shu Qian, a renowned AI researcher, called it that in his data. Saren "obtained" his data (read: murderized Qian and a bunch of other people) and found out about Sovereign that way. The rest, as they say, is history. It's unknown whether Nazara took the name Sovereign himself or if Qian decided to call it that after succumbing to indoctrination. I'm betting the former though.

Its my guess that Sovereign is merely the English translation of what Nazara means.  Or an English translation of whatever title Nazara gave itself.

Same with Harbinger.  I wonder if any other Reapers have names like that.

According to the Mass Effect Wiki...

"Nazara means 'The one who sees/observes' in old Turkish, possibly alluding to Sovereign's role as a monitor of organic civilization."

I'm not suggesting the Reapers actually talk to each other in Old Turkish, but it's a nice example of Bioware's love of language and layers of hidden meaning. 

Edit: according to Google Nazara also means "beautiful view" in Hindi, and "consideration" in modern Turkish. Maybe it all derives from the Sanskrit for "to see" or something?

Modifié par Eryri, 04 décembre 2012 - 11:55 .

[Andromidius]

Rifneno wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Shepard is Shepard, Shepard is not the united galactic fleets. Shepard can do the impossible. The united galactic fleets cannot do the impossible.

So Shepard can defeat the Reapers conventionally all by himself?

/trollface

Look, I'm just trying to make the stupidity stop in as few words as possible.  Don't complicate it.

I couldn't help myself.

But yeah, after having a think about it the idea of conventional victory is pretty ridiculous even under ideal circumstances.

I still wish Leviathan had been a rogue Reaper, though.  Having two Reapers duking it out would have been epic.

...and as another side thought, having a Mass Effect game designed to be more free-roaming and RPG like would be awesome.  Especially if it was more spy/assassin styled like Dues Ex: Human Revolution, with lots of sneaking around, hacking, stealth killing and equipment customisation.  So long as it didn't have the same plot as DE: HR, obviously.

[Rifneno]

dorktainian wrote...

dont end it plz.. we gotta get to 2500 pages at least

Thank you Shepard!
But our Catalyst is in another castle!

[Fur28]

Andromidius wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Shepard is Shepard, Shepard is not the united galactic fleets. Shepard can do the impossible. The united galactic fleets cannot do the impossible.

So Shepard can defeat the Reapers conventionally all by himself?

/trollface

with my Lv 60 Soldier Shepard and Cerberus Harrier X, i´m pretty sure i can do that, if only i had my equipment from ME1 and the Mako it would be a lot easier.- Fur said with visible confidence in his eyes

[Andromidius]

Fur28 wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Shepard is Shepard, Shepard is not the united galactic fleets. Shepard can do the impossible. The united galactic fleets cannot do the impossible.

So Shepard can defeat the Reapers conventionally all by himself?

/trollface

with my Lv 60 Soldier Shepard and Cerberus Harrier X, i´m pretty sure i can do that, if only i had my equipment from ME1 and the Mako it would be a lot easier.- Fur said with visible confidence in his eyes

Climbing up the side of Harbinger using an omni-blade?

[RavenEyry]

Andromidius wrote...
Its my guess that Sovereign is merely the English translation of what Nazara means.  Or an English translation of whatever title Nazara gave itself.

Same with Harbinger.  I wonder if any other Reapers have names like that.

I choose to call the Rannoch destroyer Frank because he was rather frank about his opinions.

[Fur28]

Andromidius wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Shepard is Shepard, Shepard is not the united galactic fleets. Shepard can do the impossible. The united galactic fleets cannot do the impossible.

So Shepard can defeat the Reapers conventionally all by himself?

/trollface

Look, I'm just trying to make the stupidity stop in as few words as possible.  Don't complicate it.

I couldn't help myself.

But yeah, after having a think about it the idea of conventional victory is pretty ridiculous even under ideal circumstances.

I still wish Leviathan had been a rogue Reaper, though.  Having two Reapers duking it out would have been epic.

...and as another side thought, having a Mass Effect game designed to be more free-roaming and RPG like would be awesome.  Especially if it was more spy/assassin styled like Dues Ex: Human Revolution, with lots of sneaking around, hacking, stealth killing and equipment customisation.  So long as it didn't have the same plot as DE: HR, obviously.

It would be cool controlling a Drell assasin:happy:
...or a Kasumi steath/thief game:wub: