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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#60701
demersel

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BleedingUranium wrote...

That would simultaneously make everything very confusing but also change nothing.


Everything is very confusing now as is. 

And that is right it would change nothing! It is just the way of sctructuring the story and give it form - it  accounts for all inconsistancies, while also explaining all of the gameplay and game design things - it even explains the need to reconstruct profiel in the very first ME1. It explains why this trilogy is shepard's story, it explains why is it complete. All of it. 

That even explains NG+ and stuff. 

Modifié par demersel, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:32 .


#60702
401 Kill

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Why does everything always have to be "Everything was a dream" or "He's dreaming up a good portion of the trilogy"?

While I understand what you are saying, why would that be easier to believe than just everything after Harby's beam being a hallucination?

#60703
RavenEyry

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demersel wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Cool idea, and mostly plausible, but no.


Ok. Why not? What does it change? What does it take away? Nothing. 

I just don't see it. And as Blur says it just adds a needless extra layer of complexity.

#60704
demersel

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401 Kill wrote...

Why does everything always have to be "Everything was a dream" or "He's dreaming up a good portion of the trilogy"?

While I understand what you are saying, why would that be easier to believe than just everything after Harby's beam being a hallucination?


Everything after harby's dream is a hallucination! 

The fact that he is laying there in the rubble cought in the infinite dream loop, constructed out of his memories - does not cancel the fact that everything that happened in the game happened just the way you did everything in order for him to even get to this point and being able to dream/remember it all. )))

#60705
MaximizedAction

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@demersel

I know what you mean, I've had the same idea. It is ideal to explain something like multiple playthroughs, different looking Sheps (maybe except for gender), different moral choices coming from one player, who is the 'real' Shepard. It's someone asking themselves a lot of "what if"s.
And while it allows that, it also helps clear up certain inconcistencies that are otherwise difficult to explain properly. Like maybe a Shepard's death at the end of ME2.

However, I don't see it as an absolutely necessary interpretation. It's a fun thing to think about, especially if, for a change, you want to make sense out of something like multiple playthroughs with different versions, in-game wise.
And you certainly don't need it for the oddities of the ME3 ending, since I think this theory of yours makes sense for playthroughs other than your first, i.e. if this playthrough's number is >1 then you can apply this theory to make sense of it.

But in general, this idea can be applied to every interactive story, right? Every character in such a story takes a nap at some point. And you can suggest that when they sleep they go through all the plot-points in their sleep and this is what you play when you play it.

And thus, sadly, dream theories are always an every stories trivial interpretation. (Though, in ME3, due to this ending, this time it can actually be rather close to the story -- but only up until we get post-ending material, after that it'll be trivial again, and thus uninteresting from an analytical point of view)

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:40 .


#60706
demersel

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RavenEyry wrote...

demersel wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Cool idea, and mostly plausible, but no.


Ok. Why not? What does it change? What does it take away? Nothing. 

I just don't see it. And as Blur says it just adds a needless extra layer of complexity.


No, on the contrary - it takes away all the complexity -
the concept becomes simple, elegant and streamlined, accounting for both the dreamy elements all thoughout the game, and not invalidating the events of the game at the same time. 

#60707
gunslinger_ruiz

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BleedingUranium wrote...

That would simultaneously make everything very confusing but also change nothing.


This! Yes.

It would be interesting, but would change nothing. In fact, you can replay the entire trilogy with the preconceived notion that you're playing through Shepard's memories and it would still be the same as playing through Shepard's life.

And would still end with us waiting this long for the Reveal.

Modifié par gunslinger_ruiz, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:42 .


#60708
RavenEyry

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demersel wrote...

No, on the contrary - it takes away all the complexity -
the concept becomes simple, elegant and streamlined, accounting for both the dreamy elements all thoughout the game, and not invalidating the events of the game at the same time. 

It might for you but it doesn't for others based on all reactions being similar to mine.

#60709
demersel

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MaximizedAction wrote...

@demersel

I know what you, I've had the same idea. It is ideal to explain something like multiple playthroughs, different looking Sheps (maybe except for gender), different moral choices coming from one player, who is the 'real' Shepard. It's someone asking themselves a lot of "what if"s.
And while it allows that, it also helps clear up certain inconcistencies that are otherwise difficult to explain properly. Like maybe a Shepard's death at the end of ME2.

However, I don't see it as an absolutely necessary interpretation. It's a fun thing to think about, especially if, for a change, you want to make sense out of something like multiple playthroughs with different versions, in-game wise.
And you certainly don't need it for the oddities of the ME3 ending, since I think this theory of yours makes sense for playthroughs other than your first, i.e. if this playthrough's number is >1 then you can apply this theory to make sense of it.

But in general, this idea can be applied to every interactive story, right? Every character in such a story takes a nap at some point. And you can suggest that when they sleep they go through all the plot-points in their sleep and this is what you play when you play it.

And thus, sadly, dream theories are always an every stories trivial interpretation.


Exactly what you said. But there is a difference here! They made a concious choice to incorporate this thing into their narrative - and make it the most important plot point.

And it isn't him just sleeping - he is trapped inside his mind - it is a very real and ongoing battle for his own self - The ending is still the hallucination induced by the indoctrination attemt, just as we here consider it to be - but this thing accounts for everything else thorughout the game. And the best part it does not invalidate the events! 

Why i think they did it - is they wanted to incorporate such a thing to give the game an extra layer - and account for it being a game, which you can replay multiple times. They also didn't want to do the mistake of, say, Fallout 3 -where the hero dies at the end, every player says it is bull****, and then they release the DLC that says Hey, he doesn't really die! 

The best part - it is a very simple thing - just a matter of perspective - and it doesn't force you to make any changes in the story or gameplay to account for it. Just a neat thing to wrap everything up - like a narrative envelope - writers really love such stuff. Especially if it HELPS the immersion to the sotry rather that detaches you from it. And in this case - it helps.  

#60710
CoolioThane

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Hey y'all what's crack-a-lackin

#60711
Restrider

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Fur28 wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Teoria Adoctrinamiento


te falto el acento   *Teoría del Adoctrinamiento

Keep it familiar:
"Teoría del Indoctrinamiento" works as well.
Btw, Harbinger is called "el Heraldo" :o

#60712
RavenEyry

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CoolioThane wrote...

Hey y'all what's crack-a-lackin

Demersel's frothing at the mouth again.

#60713
demersel

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gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

That would simultaneously make everything very confusing but also change nothing.


This! Yes.

It would be interesting, but would change nothing. In fact, you can replay the entire trilogy with the preconceived notion that you're playing through Shepard's memories and it would still be the same as playing through Shepard's life.

And would still end with us waiting this long for the Reveal.


Exaclty. And this is a very good thing, because it really says thet reveal WILL come. And as a brindging DLC to ME4 ))

And really think about what you have just said - you can replay the entire trilogy with the preconceived notion that you're playing through Shepard's memories and it would still be the same as playing through Shepard's life.

And conviniently they release the trilogy pack. 
Remember - ME3 is designed to be the best place to jump in on the story. :D

It even explains why the DLCs are not included into this trilogy pack. 

#60714
CoolioThane

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RavenEyry wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Hey y'all what's crack-a-lackin

Demersel's frothing at the mouth again.


It's an interesting idea, but I think it would take away from the importance of Harby's beam.

The minutes he's hit with the beam, that's when the hallucinations start imo

#60715
Restrider

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CoolioThane wrote...

Fur28 wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Teoria Adoctrinamiento


te falto el acento   *Teoría del Adoctrinamiento


No tengo acentos en mi teclado :/

 

Lol, Fur's correction is hilarious, since he is missing an accent on "faltó" as well :D

#60716
demersel

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RavenEyry wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

Hey y'all what's crack-a-lackin

Demersel's frothing at the mouth again.


Yes, maybe a little, but you really need to consider my trail of thought here -
I got this idea when thinging about Fallout 3 and it's add od - the Broken Steel. And all that surrounds it. 
And it wasn't today - it was the time the EC was released. 
Today i just remebered it again. And again because of thinging about fallout 3 and broken steel. 

#60717
RavenEyry

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CoolioThane wrote...
The minutes he's hit with the beam, that's when the hallucinations start imo

I feel it's the unexplained mako crash moments before, and I believe Byne does too.

It would make the evac scene and Harby's awful aim part of the dream.

#60718
Restrider

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401 Kill wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

I'm still very much believing the idea that Harbinger is the intelligence referred to by Leviathan. I mean after all, Harbinger considers himself a deity and was the first reaper, reapers are a mix of synthetic and organic.. so it only makes sense for the intelligence to put himself in with the organic material of the Leviathans.

Plus, the Reaper on Rannoch says "Harbinger speaks of you. You resist, but you will fail." So clearly Harbinger is telling all the Reapers about Shepard. Also, he personally directed the beam run when Shepard charged it.

Like this?

Posted Image

#60719
CoolioThane

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RavenEyry wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...
The minutes he's hit with the beam, that's when the hallucinations start imo

I feel it's the unexplained mako crash moments before, and I believe Byne does too.

It would make the evac scene and Harby's awful aim part of the dream.


I'm torn, actually...that explains HArby not shooting the Normandy and the piles of bodies

Yep, I'ma go with crash now. :D

#60720
demersel

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CoolioThane wrote...

It's an interesting idea, but I think it would take away from the importance of Harby's beam.

The minutes he's hit with the beam, that's when the hallucinations start imo



So the Normandy evac is 100% legit? 

What the EC clearly showed, and what most of you here ignore - is that it told right in our faces - IT ISN'T JUST THE SCENES AFTER THE BEAM. - in those exact huge letters, only there they were also glowing bright yellow. :whistle:

#60721
demersel

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Being trapped in an infinite limbo does not negate everything on the after the crush or after the beam or whatever being a full blown induced hallucination.

#60722
Restrider

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masster blaster wrote...

Let's see Banshee you sound like fem Shepard, but more of a Bastila voice when she was younger.

Also Blurr I use to read your post as you were Kadin.

And I assume I sound like Martin Sheen?? Nice...

#60723
MaximizedAction

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demersel wrote...

Exactly what you said. But there is a difference here! They made a concious choice to incorporate this thing into their narrative - and make it the most important plot point.

And it isn't him just sleeping - he is trapped inside his mind - it is a very real and ongoing battle for his own self - The ending is still the hallucination induced by the indoctrination attemt, just as we here consider it to be - but this thing accounts for everything else thorughout the game. And the best part it does not invalidate the events! 

Why i think they did it - is they wanted to incorporate such a thing to give the game an extra layer - and account for it being a game, which you can replay multiple times. They also didn't want to do the mistake of, say, Fallout 3 -where the hero dies at the end, every player says it is bull****, and then they release the DLC that says Hey, he doesn't really die! 

The best part - it is a very simple thing - just a matter of perspective - and it doesn't force you to make any changes in the story or gameplay to account for it. Just a neat thing to wrap everything up - like a narrative envelope - writers really love such stuff. Especially if it HELPS the immersion to the sotry rather that detaches you from it. And in this case - it helps.  


Yes, by sleeping I meant in a scenario where Shepard is not under the threat of indoctrination and possibly trapped in his mind during the ending as you wrote but maybe chilling on some beach.

What I meant by trivial is that one should keep in mind that dream theories are in general always a possibility but they are, what mathematicians would call, the trivial interpretations.

But yes, I agree, in this particular scenario, where our Shep made one playthrough, 'finishes' ME1-ME3 once and then did secondary playthroughs, where the latter end up being hallucinatory scenarios it's fine.

However, the more I think about it, it's not really good either, because the way I see it, you need at least one playthrough to get your Shep to London to become trapped in his mind. And even in this first playthrough there remain oddities that would require a the whole trilogy being a hallucination. You see where I'm going with this? You always nees an initia, non-odd, bug free playthrough, which isn't possible (e.g. default M8 Avenger equipped bug in ME3).
So you come to the conclusion that in order to have a good interpretation that makes sense of ALL the inconcistencies, you need to claim that Shepard is always hallucinating a bit (random Predator pistol in some choices like how to deal with the Rachni queen in ME3). And if you claim that, then you don't really have that much of a need for a "Shepard is caught in his mind during the trilogy" interpretation anymore. Some things simply being an effect from ongoing indoc. attempts is enough then.

My god, why am I writing so much...
tl;dr: it's a possible interpretation but one only for the lulz.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 06 décembre 2012 - 12:02 .


#60724
tangythang

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demersel wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

It's an interesting idea, but I think it would take away from the importance of Harby's beam.

The minutes he's hit with the beam, that's when the hallucinations start imo



So the Normandy evac is 100% legit? 

What the EC clearly showed, and what most of you here ignore - is that it told right in our faces - IT ISN'T JUST THE SCENES AFTER THE BEAM. - in those exact huge letters, only there they were also glowing bright yellow. :whistle:


Can it be the scene after the last nightmare is all delusion. Pretty convenient retcon point like the one happened in butterfly effect. And nomatter what after the game end, you get back there, just before the attack on TIM headquarter. (note: that's the first time the catalyst was introduced too! In the end, I mean the very end of everybody's playtrough, the catalyst was never the godchild)

#60725
demersel

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Aren't this infinite limbo of memories is where we all are at the moment in real life in regards of ME trilogy? Don't we all just remember it over and over again waiting for our chance to snap out of it and continue the fight? Don't we all agree here that nothing is over yet - reapers are still not defeated, but we can't actually do anything about it yet, except for hoping, and remembering some new deteals along the way - like missed dialogs or details or even entire mission - the DLCs?

They did promise us a new level of storytelling. This is exaclty what it is.

Think about it!  it is even consitent with Shepard's own reaction to the dreams in the game itself! 

Modifié par demersel, 06 décembre 2012 - 12:06 .