80611 réponses à ce sujet

[MegumiAzusa]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

demersel wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
So Refuse is like sacrificing yourself, like Saren and TIM did? I could get behind that, though it doesn't explain the different Stargazer scene.

No Refuse is not sacrificing yourself, like Saren - it is going flatline while you are in a coma. 

Both control and Synthesis migh lead to sacrififcing yourself like Saren did though. 

Yeah, that is one of the things I have always advertised in IT, not letting the choice beeing set in stone. Certain choices, High EMS, a Love Interest or a combiantion might all allow a Control / Synthesis chooser to fight back in Saren's way or even break free for a short time (in extreme cases).

I have allready presented the Rachni Queen idea.

My main gripe is that even if you have the necesary prequsites to get a second chance under Control /Synthesis it wont be easy or without sacrifice. You are going to lose something in breaking free, wether it be your own life, your love interest or something else like the Rahcni Queen in my old idea. There is a price for making the wrong choice, but preparation can minimize that price from the entire Galaxy falling with you to some serious personal blows to you or others.

So how would that work then if you made the wrong choice and not have any of these escape options?

[Andromidius]

demersel wrote...

Wait, i thought that was exaclty how it happened! I shot udina with my trusty carnifex (if i don't do it - Ashley does it with a carnifex. I don't know about Kaidan, but he's gay, so it would not be politically correct to give him a scumbag carnifex. Gays are incapable of evil and wrong-doing and are always correct.)

Udina has a Phalanx, I believe.

I need to get some sleep.  Back is killing me.  Night.

[MegumiAzusa]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
So Refuse is like sacrificing yourself, like Saren and TIM did? I could get behind that, though it doesn't explain the different Stargazer scene.

No Refuse is not sacrificing yourself, like Saren - it is going flatline while you are in a coma. 

Both control and Synthesis migh lead to sacrififcing yourself like Saren did though.

You should read Retribution. The Reapers wouldn't let that happen.

The Reapers dont have a choice if they dont have full control of Shepard yet, which is one of the main points. What we see is the breaking point, the moment as Shepard is sliding down the slope before he jumps completely of it.

Also for all of Sovereign's hold on Saren he coukdnt stop him from pulling the trigger on himself. The Reapers are powerful and they can get inside your head, but Saren showed us a powerful mind can break free even after beeing implanted, even if only for a short time.

And they learned since then as evidenced in Retribution.

[demersel]

Zardoc wrote...

So, any actual evidence to support IT yet?

Yes. The texture that is used to create the starchild is named Dreamlight_tile in the game files. 

[pablosplinter]

Andromidius wrote...

I think its safe to say that IT isn't a rigid set of ideas, its just a general loose concept based around symbolism, foreshadowing and thematic disonence.

Its got its weaknesses, but also its strengths. Its adaptablity means its more likely to be correct in one way or another, and also if any point is 'debunked' (which many have been) then it doesn't effect the points of others.

Pretty great, honestly.

Perfectly suumed up right there

[BansheeOwnage]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

demersel wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
So Refuse is like sacrificing yourself, like Saren and TIM did? I could get behind that, though it doesn't explain the different Stargazer scene.

No Refuse is not sacrificing yourself, like Saren - it is going flatline while you are in a coma. 

Both control and Synthesis migh lead to sacrififcing yourself like Saren did though. 

Yeah, that is one of the things I have always advertised in IT, not letting the choice beeing set in stone. Certain choices, High EMS, a Love Interest or a combiantion might all allow a Control / Synthesis chooser to fight back in Saren's way or even break free for a short time (in extreme cases).

I have allready presented the Rachni Queen idea.

My main gripe is that even if you have the necesary prequsites to get a second chance under Control /Synthesis it wont be easy or without sacrifice. You are going to lose something in breaking free, wether it be your own life, your love interest or something else like the Rahcni Queen in my old idea. There is a price for making the wrong choice, but preparation can minimize that price from the entire Galaxy falling with you to some serious personal blows to you or others.

So how would that work then if you made the wrong choice and not have any of these escape options?

You die. It would be hard though. Just like ME2.

[demersel]

Andromidius wrote...

Udina has a Phalanx, I believe.

I need to get some sleep.  Back is killing me.  Night.

Udina has a predator. 

[MegumiAzusa]

Arashi08 wrote...

Sounds like it could be the disregard of EMS that is the problem not necessarily the Stargazer scene.

It's still the combination of both which makes the point a strong counter argument.

[MegumiAzusa]

demersel wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Udina has a Phalanx, I believe.

I need to get some sleep.  Back is killing me. Night.

Udina has a predator.

Phalanx.

[Arashi08]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
You should read Retribution. The Reapers wouldn't let that happen.

You know what?  I fine with having played Mass Effect 1 and it says it can happen. It says so twice.

Considering Saren is implanted and can still kill himself...  Yeah, demersel is right.

Considering Grayson couldn't disagrees. He was still needed. TIM... outlived his use maybe?

I think the issue with Grayson was his lack of willpower due to it being eroded by red sand.  In the book that was the turning point where Grayson was basically forced to take a backseat while the Reapers controlled his body.

It seemed to me that Grayson's indoctrination was closer to what occurs with husks rather than the method used on Saren and TIM, where their minds were still useful to the Reapers.

[hukbum]

Restrider wrote...

hukbum wrote...

Oh, time for the next 50 pages of sandbox-fighting?

Kindergarten Ahoy!

It's Mark IV, right?

[MegumiAzusa]

Arashi08 wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
In short: the ending does only distinguish between you used the Crucible or you opted out and even disregards EMS.
The task: create a plausible theory why this is what's happening in the context of IT.

Simple -
Shepard has not done something crucial yet, and he does it regardless of whether or not he is indoctrinated or not - the very fact that he is alive allows for this thing to happen. 

In refuse shepard is braindead - and can't trigger the event.

So an indoctrinated Shepard isn't being stopped from doing what could destroy the Reapers? Didn't I say something about plausible?

Destroy is Shepard trying to fight

Which was not the point.

If your point was the bolded part - i adressed it, it fits perfectly, you just waved it off with "Naah, that's not it". 
You allude to something in retribution - i directly quote you the game. 
I still say i miss the point - I say screw you, you're dumb.
I advise you to leave this thread. 

aaaaaaaand we're back to this again...*sigh*

That's the problem I'm facing since weeks :3

[dreamgazer]

demersel wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

So, any actual evidence to support IT yet?

Yes. The texture that is used to create the starchild is named Dreamlight_tile in the game files. 

They probably labeled that texture as such since the Catalyst's appearance has an ethereal quality, but that applies in both literal and non-literal viewpoints.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 06 décembre 2012 - 07:29 .

[demersel]

Why do the people who play the Bad Writing Card are so obsessed with clinging the Mass Effect Novels as example for how things should work?

[Arashi08]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Sounds like it could be the disregard of EMS that is the problem not necessarily the Stargazer scene.

It's still the combination of both which makes the point a strong counter argument.

True but, in a hypothetical scenario, if the EMS actually played a factor and might have changed the scene somewhat, such as more resistance from the Fleets and more Reapers destroyed, but the Fleets still lost and the Stargazer scene plays the same, what would that do with the impact of the Refuse ending on IT? 

[demersel]

dreamgazer wrote...

demersel wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

So, any actual evidence to support IT yet?

Yes. The texture that is used to create the starchild is named Dreamlight_tile in the game files. 

They probably labeled that texture as such since the Catalyst's appearance has an ethereal quality.

What about the DreamFoilage_ lable for the leaves on the planet the normandy crushes on? 
What about the model for the handles that Shepard grabs in control being named "BadChoice_01"?

[Restrider]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

The problem here is that with the EC they introduced logical flaws in the argumentation of the Guardian and with the new epilog it shows that there are only two states in the long run, which is the crucible is fired or not. IT has to accommodate for the latter in order to make sense. But saying stuff like "there is a feedback and then all Reaper forces are just defeated" doesn't make any sense. The point is I do not know anything that could fix it, which results in my opinion that BW messed up.

Okay, I'll try to nicely add my take on this. It has been posted hundreds of pages ago - and it was probably missed - but I can understand that due to the amount of posts that are generated on a normal day in this thread.

Your point is that using the Crucible is different from not using it. Blur has his "out-of-narrative" explanation, I have another.

Regardless of the choice (RGB only, mind you), the Reapers are defeated in our cycle. We do not know how, though. One way could be that with the breath scene, Shepard breaks free and defeats the Reapers ... somehow.
For Synthesis/Control, you could say that Shepard can break free as well, but there are sacrifices that have to be made. Raistlin suggests that these sacrifices - the amount of it also depending on your EMS - are for example the Rachni Queen, Feros colonists/Shiala, Liara, other squadmates/LI, etc. Mainly assets that somehow can get into your mind and close friends. Through their sacrifice Shepard can break free for a certain amount of time to finish his job ... somehow.

Refuse on the other hand would be - and this is my personal take - an open confrontation to the Reapers, who in turn just kill you. Shepard dies. The Reapers defeat this cycle. Liara's time capsule saves the next cycle.

And before you start with nonsensical nitpicking. THIS IS JUST A PERSONAL INTERPRETATION/SPECULATION.
And it is common knowledge in this thread since the early 1000ers of Mark III.

[MegumiAzusa]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

demersel wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
So Refuse is like sacrificing yourself, like Saren and TIM did? I could get behind that, though it doesn't explain the different Stargazer scene.

No Refuse is not sacrificing yourself, like Saren - it is going flatline while you are in a coma. 

Both control and Synthesis migh lead to sacrififcing yourself like Saren did though. 

Yeah, that is one of the things I have always advertised in IT, not letting the choice beeing set in stone. Certain choices, High EMS, a Love Interest or a combiantion might all allow a Control / Synthesis chooser to fight back in Saren's way or even break free for a short time (in extreme cases).

I have allready presented the Rachni Queen idea.

My main gripe is that even if you have the necesary prequsites to get a second chance under Control /Synthesis it wont be easy or without sacrifice. You are going to lose something in breaking free, wether it be your own life, your love interest or something else like the Rahcni Queen in my old idea. There is a price for making the wrong choice, but preparation can minimize that price from the entire Galaxy falling with you to some serious personal blows to you or others.

So how would that work then if you made the wrong choice and not have any of these escape options?

You die. It would be hard though. Just like ME2.

So low EMS something but opt out: you die, but Galaxy is saved.
Opt out: Cycle continues.

How does that even fit?

[BansheeOwnage]

demersel wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

So, any actual evidence to support IT yet?

Yes. The texture that is used to create the starchild is named Dreamlight_tile in the game files. 

That's certainly cool and interesting, but we all know file names are shorthand. Keep that in mind. Though, there are other helpful file names, like control's Endchoice_A_Bad or something like that.

[demersel]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Udina has a Phalanx, I believe.

I need to get some sleep.  Back is killing me. Night.

Udina has a predator.

Phalanx.

Would you care to provide a screenshot? 

And really it doesn't matter anyway. 

[MegumiAzusa]

Arashi08 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
You should read Retribution. The Reapers wouldn't let that happen.

You know what?  I fine with having played Mass Effect 1 and it says it can happen. It says so twice.

Considering Saren is implanted and can still kill himself...  Yeah, demersel is right.

Considering Grayson couldn't disagrees. He was still needed. TIM... outlived his use maybe?

I think the issue with Grayson was his lack of willpower due to it being eroded by red sand.  In the book that was the turning point where Grayson was basically forced to take a backseat while the Reapers controlled his body.

It seemed to me that Grayson's indoctrination was closer to what occurs with husks rather than the method used on Saren and TIM, where their minds were still useful to the Reapers.

It is hard to say, but it also specifically states that the Reapers wont let that happen again and are prepared for it. (Though I still wonder why no one of the other cycles never did that but it's more likely that is just a minor oversight to make the point clear)

[FFZero]

For the love of God demersel, Megumi is still a fan of IT, she's not jumped ship to the literal or bad writing theories. All she is doing is pointing out the wholes in IT, you have no grounds to savage her at every given point just because she doesn't agree with your interpretation.

[hukbum]

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Udina has a Phalanx, I believe.

I need to get some sleep.  Back is killing me. Night.

Udina has a predator.

Phalanx.

Would you care to provide a screenshot? 

And really it doesn't matter anyway.

No need for that. It's a Phalanx. VS has a Predator.

[BansheeOwnage]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

demersel wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
So Refuse is like sacrificing yourself, like Saren and TIM did? I could get behind that, though it doesn't explain the different Stargazer scene.

No Refuse is not sacrificing yourself, like Saren - it is going flatline while you are in a coma. 

Both control and Synthesis migh lead to sacrififcing yourself like Saren did though. 

Yeah, that is one of the things I have always advertised in IT, not letting the choice beeing set in stone. Certain choices, High EMS, a Love Interest or a combiantion might all allow a Control / Synthesis chooser to fight back in Saren's way or even break free for a short time (in extreme cases).

I have allready presented the Rachni Queen idea.

My main gripe is that even if you have the necesary prequsites to get a second chance under Control /Synthesis it wont be easy or without sacrifice. You are going to lose something in breaking free, wether it be your own life, your love interest or something else like the Rahcni Queen in my old idea. There is a price for making the wrong choice, but preparation can minimize that price from the entire Galaxy falling with you to some serious personal blows to you or others.

So how would that work then if you made the wrong choice and not have any of these escape options?

You die. It would be hard though. Just like ME2.

So low EMS something but opt out: you die, but Galaxy is saved.
Opt out: Cycle continues.

How does that even fit?

I don't know about you but I was talking about a hypothetical IT reveal. What are you talking about?

Top!

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 06 décembre 2012 - 07:37 .

[Restrider]

hukbum wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

hukbum wrote...

Oh, time for the next 50 pages of sandbox-fighting?

It's funny, it's like a curse, once the page reached a certain page number no long ongoing discussion is possible, either the trolls derail it or ITers themselves by fighting eachother.

Is scho seltsam.

Wem sagst'e das ...
Förmchenklau und seine Folgen ...
(if someone wants a translation for that, just ask, but it's nothing really important )

Wart nur ab bis es zum Sandburgen zerdeppern kommt...