80611 réponses à ce sujet

[MegumiAzusa]

Arashi08 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Sounds like it could be the disregard of EMS that is the problem not necessarily the Stargazer scene.

It's still the combination of both which makes the point a strong counter argument.

True but, in a hypothetical scenario, if the EMS actually played a factor and might have changed the scene somewhat, such as more resistance from the Fleets and more Reapers destroyed, but the Fleets still lost and the Stargazer scene plays the same, what would that do with the impact of the Refuse ending on IT?

"might have changed the scene somewhat" contradicts "and the Stargazer scene plays the same" could you rephrase?

[dreamgazer]

demersel wrote...

What about the DreamFoilage_ lable for the leaves on the planet the normandy crushes on? 
What about the model for the handles that Shepard grabs in control being named "BadChoice_01"?

If "dream foliage" isn't just a description of the way the plants look, which it could be, then it might strengthen the non-literal outlook---but that doesn't necesarily mean IT.

The control handle still leaves me scratching my head.

[hukbum]

Restrider wrote...

hukbum wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

hukbum wrote...

Oh, time for the next 50 pages of sandbox-fighting?

It's funny, it's like a curse, once the page reached a certain page number no long ongoing discussion is possible, either the trolls derail it or ITers themselves by fighting eachother.

Is scho seltsam.

Wem sagst'e das ...
Förmchenklau und seine Folgen ...
(if someone wants a translation for that, just ask, but it's nothing really important )

Wart nur ab bis es zum Sandburgen zerdeppern kommt..

let's hope it'll not go that far.

[MegumiAzusa]

Restrider wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

The problem here is that with the EC they introduced logical flaws in the argumentation of the Guardian and with the new epilog it shows that there are only two states in the long run, which is the crucible is fired or not. IT has to accommodate for the latter in order to make sense. But saying stuff like "there is a feedback and then all Reaper forces are just defeated" doesn't make any sense. The point is I do not know anything that could fix it, which results in my opinion that BW messed up.

Okay, I'll try to nicely add my take on this. It has been posted hundreds of pages ago - and it was probably missed - but I can understand that due to the amount of posts that are generated on a normal day in this thread.

Your point is that using the Crucible is different from not using it. Blur has his "out-of-narrative" explanation, I have another.

Regardless of the choice (RGB only, mind you), the Reapers are defeated in our cycle. We do not know how, though. One way could be that with the breath scene, Shepard breaks free and defeats the Reapers ... somehow.
For Synthesis/Control, you could say that Shepard can break free as well, but there are sacrifices that have to be made. Raistlin suggests that these sacrifices - the amount of it also depending on your EMS - are for example the Rachni Queen, Feros colonists/Shiala, Liara, other squadmates/LI, etc. Mainly assets that somehow can get into your mind and close friends. Through their sacrifice Shepard can break free for a certain amount of time to finish his job ... somehow.

Refuse on the other hand would be - and this is my personal take - an open confrontation to the Reapers, who in turn just kill you. Shepard dies. The Reapers defeat this cycle. Liara's time capsule saves the next cycle.

And before you start with nonsensical nitpicking. THIS IS JUST A PERSONAL INTERPRETATION/SPECULATION.
And it is common knowledge in this thread since the early 1000ers of Mark III.

Low EMS options still disagree. Shepard dies in these options too.

[BansheeOwnage]

hukbum wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Udina has a Phalanx, I believe.

I need to get some sleep.  Back is killing me. Night.

Udina has a predator.

Phalanx.

Would you care to provide a screenshot? 

And really it doesn't matter anyway.

No need for that. It's a Phalanx. VS has a Predator.

VS has a Carnifex, you have a Predator. It's symbolic.

[hukbum]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

hukbum wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Udina has a Phalanx, I believe.

I need to get some sleep.  Back is killing me. Night.

Udina has a predator.

Phalanx.

Would you care to provide a screenshot? 

And really it doesn't matter anyway.

No need for that. It's a Phalanx. VS has a Predator.

VS has a Carnifex, you have a Predator. It's symbolic.

Ups, mixed these up, sorry.

[ElSuperGecko]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
If you have the result x in case 1, x in case 2, and y in case 3 while x != y you can say case 1 and case 2 are equal. This equality means that no matter what you do in the long run the same result occurs. Applied to the ending that means it doesn't matter if Shepard lives or dies. What matters is that she really activated the Crucible in order to achieve x. You don't need to know when etc it's playing. If you say "this cycle dies in Synthesis and x is placed in another cycle" you also have to say that any choice of destroy has the continuation of the cycle as a result. If the scene wouldn't give any ingame message and is only supposed to be counted as a message to the player the new opt out scene shouldn't be there, but it is, and makes it clear how it looks like what happens if the Crucible is not activated.

Actually, I believe I covered that argument, and agreed with you that whatever you do in the LONG run the same result occurs.  "Ripples in a pond".

But concerning ourselves with the "long run" isn't our goal.  What is Shepard's goal?  To save the races of the galaxy, friends, their loved ones and their way of life.  This is not the long run - this is distinctly short term.

The Catalyst's goal is to preserve life in the long run.  Which, as your interpretation of the Stargazer scene seems to show us, is pointless because regardless of our decision, life wil go on anyway.

The difference in the Strargazer scene is distinct:  Refuse and this cycle WILL NOT survive.  Choose - and it MAY survive.  Or it MAY NOT.  We don't know enough about the Stargazr scene to draw that conclusion either way.  And that's why the context is important.  We get that context with refuse.  It's clear that we failed, and a different cycle defeated the Reapers.  With the other choices, it's not clear whether we survived or not - only that life still goes on... one way or another.

[Arashi08]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Sounds like it could be the disregard of EMS that is the problem not necessarily the Stargazer scene.

It's still the combination of both which makes the point a strong counter argument.

True but, in a hypothetical scenario, if the EMS actually played a factor and might have changed the scene somewhat, such as more resistance from the Fleets and more Reapers destroyed, but the Fleets still lost and the Stargazer scene plays the same, what would that do with the impact of the Refuse ending on IT?

"might have changed the scene somewhat" contradicts "and the Stargazer scene plays the same" could you rephrase?

I meant the scene probably after the Catalyst says "SO BE IT!"

[BansheeOwnage]

FFZero wrote...

For the love of God demersel, Megumi is still a fan of IT, she's not jumped ship to the literal or bad writing theories. All she is doing is pointing out the wholes in IT, you have no grounds to savage her at every given point just because she doesn't agree with your interpretation.

I'll just be the neutral party here and say that both of them seem a little arrogant right now. Dem is spurting out IT evidence like it's incontrovertible, and Megumi's high-strung attitide is pissing a lot of people off. Just stop the needless arguments. I'm usually pretty nice to people here but come on!

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

demersel wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
So Refuse is like sacrificing yourself, like Saren and TIM did? I could get behind that, though it doesn't explain the different Stargazer scene.

No Refuse is not sacrificing yourself, like Saren - it is going flatline while you are in a coma. 

Both control and Synthesis migh lead to sacrififcing yourself like Saren did though. 

Yeah, that is one of the things I have always advertised in IT, not letting the choice beeing set in stone. Certain choices, High EMS, a Love Interest or a combiantion might all allow a Control / Synthesis chooser to fight back in Saren's way or even break free for a short time (in extreme cases).

I have allready presented the Rachni Queen idea.

My main gripe is that even if you have the necesary prequsites to get a second chance under Control /Synthesis it wont be easy or without sacrifice. You are going to lose something in breaking free, wether it be your own life, your love interest or something else like the Rahcni Queen in my old idea. There is a price for making the wrong choice, but preparation can minimize that price from the entire Galaxy falling with you to some serious personal blows to you or others.

So how would that work then if you made the wrong choice and not have any of these escape options?

You die. It would be hard though. Just like ME2.

So low EMS something but opt out: you die, but Galaxy is saved.
Opt out: Cycle continues.

How does that even fit?

Not exactly. Low EMS and pick the wrong choice could easily end in Shepard Indoctrinated and sabotages war effort. Cycle continues. Would be no different than not having prepared for the suicide mission and getting everyone killed as a result.

High EMS on the other hand could have your squad stopping Shepard, possibly your love interest ending in Shepard killing himself of the squad doing it. High enough EMS past this point and the squad finishes the fight, saving the galaxy, but Shepard (and possibly several squadmates) are dead.

[hukbum]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Low EMS options still disagree. Shepard dies in these options too.

Don't know, does all that IT stuff not include to play all games to realize it?
And it's quite hard to even get low EMS Destroy if you've played all games. Btw - if you get low EMS Destroy, yourShep really did something wrong

Modifié par hukbum, 06 décembre 2012 - 07:46 .

[MegumiAzusa]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

demersel wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
So Refuse is like sacrificing yourself, like Saren and TIM did? I could get behind that, though it doesn't explain the different Stargazer scene.

No Refuse is not sacrificing yourself, like Saren - it is going flatline while you are in a coma. 

Both control and Synthesis migh lead to sacrififcing yourself like Saren did though. 

Yeah, that is one of the things I have always advertised in IT, not letting the choice beeing set in stone. Certain choices, High EMS, a Love Interest or a combiantion might all allow a Control / Synthesis chooser to fight back in Saren's way or even break free for a short time (in extreme cases).

I have allready presented the Rachni Queen idea.

My main gripe is that even if you have the necesary prequsites to get a second chance under Control /Synthesis it wont be easy or without sacrifice. You are going to lose something in breaking free, wether it be your own life, your love interest or something else like the Rahcni Queen in my old idea. There is a price for making the wrong choice, but preparation can minimize that price from the entire Galaxy falling with you to some serious personal blows to you or others.

So how would that work then if you made the wrong choice and not have any of these escape options?

You die. It would be hard though. Just like ME2.

So low EMS something but opt out: you die, but Galaxy is saved.
Opt out: Cycle continues.

How does that even fit?

I don't know about you but I was talking about a hypothetical IT reveal. What are you talking about?

Top!

I'm talking about the problem of the game specifically stating in low EMS that Shepard dies but still saves the Galaxy, while in opt out Shepard dies while the Cycle continues. This doesn't really mix but if the Crucible does at least something vs the Reapers (aka killing or controlling them).

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Restrider wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

The problem here is that with the EC they introduced logical flaws in the argumentation of the Guardian and with the new epilog it shows that there are only two states in the long run, which is the crucible is fired or not. IT has to accommodate for the latter in order to make sense. But saying stuff like "there is a feedback and then all Reaper forces are just defeated" doesn't make any sense. The point is I do not know anything that could fix it, which results in my opinion that BW messed up.

Okay, I'll try to nicely add my take on this. It has been posted hundreds of pages ago - and it was probably missed - but I can understand that due to the amount of posts that are generated on a normal day in this thread.

Your point is that using the Crucible is different from not using it. Blur has his "out-of-narrative" explanation, I have another.

Regardless of the choice (RGB only, mind you), the Reapers are defeated in our cycle. We do not know how, though. One way could be that with the breath scene, Shepard breaks free and defeats the Reapers ... somehow.
For Synthesis/Control, you could say that Shepard can break free as well, but there are sacrifices that have to be made. Raistlin suggests that these sacrifices - the amount of it also depending on your EMS - are for example the Rachni Queen, Feros colonists/Shiala, Liara, other squadmates/LI, etc. Mainly assets that somehow can get into your mind and close friends. Through their sacrifice Shepard can break free for a certain amount of time to finish his job ... somehow.

Refuse on the other hand would be - and this is my personal take - an open confrontation to the Reapers, who in turn just kill you. Shepard dies. The Reapers defeat this cycle. Liara's time capsule saves the next cycle.

And before you start with nonsensical nitpicking. THIS IS JUST A PERSONAL INTERPRETATION/SPECULATION.
And it is common knowledge in this thread since the early 1000ers of Mark III.

Low EMS options still disagree. Shepard dies in these options too.

Dies according to the Catalyst. If it is all in Shepard's head we dont know what is happening to Shepard's body.

[MegumiAzusa]

dreamgazer wrote...

demersel wrote...

What about the DreamFoilage_ lable for the leaves on the planet the normandy crushes on? 
What about the model for the handles that Shepard grabs in control being named "BadChoice_01"?

If "dream foliage" isn't just a description of the way the plants look, which it could be, then it might strengthen the non-literal outlook---but that doesn't necesarily mean IT.

The control handle still leaves me scratching my head.

The question is also: are these names based on a previous scrapped version?
Also for the dream foliage it could have been created for the dream in the first place but later reused as they didn't have the time to create more.

[demersel]

FFZero wrote...

For the love of God demersel, Megumi is still a fan of IT, she's not jumped ship to the literal or bad writing theories. All she is doing is pointing out the wholes in IT, you have no grounds to savage her at every given point just because she doesn't agree with your interpretation.

What are talking about? 

[BansheeOwnage]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

I don't know about you but I was talking about a hypothetical IT reveal. What are you talking about?

Top!

I'm talking about the problem of the game specifically stating in low EMS that Shepard dies but still saves the Galaxy, while in opt out Shepard dies while the Cycle continues. This doesn't really mix but if the Crucible does at least something vs the Reapers (aka killing or controlling them).

I don't really see any problem there. What am I missing?

[Rifneno]

FFZero wrote...

For the love of God demersel, Megumi is still a fan of IT, she's not jumped ship to the literal or bad writing theories. All she is doing is pointing out the wholes in IT, you have no grounds to savage her at every given point just because she doesn't agree with your interpretation.

JFC.  Is this the first post you've ever read here?  Megumi is a disease to this thread.  It doesn't matter what she believes, it matters how she acts.  I'd rather hav seviel here than this... thing.

[demersel]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
The question is also: are these names based on a previous scrapped version?
Also for the dream foliage it could have been created for the dream in the first place but later reused as they didn't have the time to create more.

Lots aff assumptions and what ifs. 

[MegumiAzusa]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
If you have the result x in case 1, x in case 2, and y in case 3 while x != y you can say case 1 and case 2 are equal. This equality means that no matter what you do in the long run the same result occurs. Applied to the ending that means it doesn't matter if Shepard lives or dies. What matters is that she really activated the Crucible in order to achieve x. You don't need to know when etc it's playing. If you say "this cycle dies in Synthesis and x is placed in another cycle" you also have to say that any choice of destroy has the continuation of the cycle as a result. If the scene wouldn't give any ingame message and is only supposed to be counted as a message to the player the new opt out scene shouldn't be there, but it is, and makes it clear how it looks like what happens if the Crucible is not activated.

Actually, I believe I covered that argument, and agreed with you that whatever you do in the LONG run the same result occurs.  "Ripples in a pond".

But concerning ourselves with the "long run" isn't our goal.  What is Shepard's goal?  To save the races of the galaxy, friends, their loved ones and their way of life.  This is not the long run - this is distinctly short term.

The Catalyst's goal is to preserve life in the long run.  Which, as your interpretation of the Stargazer scene seems to show us, is pointless because regardless of our decision, life wil go on anyway.

The difference in the Strargazer scene is distinct:  Refuse and this cycle WILL NOT survive.  Choose - and it MAY survive.  Or it MAY NOT.  We don't know enough about the Stargazr scene to draw that conclusion either way.  And that's why the context is important.  We get that context with refuse.  It's clear that we failed, and a different cycle defeated the Reapers.  With the other choices, it's not clear whether we survived or not - only that life still goes on... one way or another.

Which would still lead to choosing any option doesn't matter in the end but to opt out.
The problem you create for yourself here is by saying if it shows another cycle we never destroyed the Reapers and always got indoctrinated. Which also contradicts IT and makes the last choice completely irrelevant. Do you really want that?

[BansheeOwnage]

Rifneno wrote...

FFZero wrote...

For the love of God demersel, Megumi is still a fan of IT, she's not jumped ship to the literal or bad writing theories. All she is doing is pointing out the wholes in IT, you have no grounds to savage her at every given point just because she doesn't agree with your interpretation.

JFC.  Is this the first post you've ever read here?  Megumi is a disease to this thread.  It doesn't matter what she believes, it matters how she acts.  I'd rather hav seviel here than this... thing.

Even if I find Rif harsh, I usually agree with him. This case is no different. I have basically the same attitude towards Javik.

[MegumiAzusa]

Arashi08 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Sounds like it could be the disregard of EMS that is the problem not necessarily the Stargazer scene.

It's still the combination of both which makes the point a strong counter argument.

True but, in a hypothetical scenario, if the EMS actually played a factor and might have changed the scene somewhat, such as more resistance from the Fleets and more Reapers destroyed, but the Fleets still lost and the Stargazer scene plays the same, what would that do with the impact of the Refuse ending on IT?

"might have changed the scene somewhat" contradicts "and the Stargazer scene plays the same" could you rephrase?

I meant the scene probably after the Catalyst says "SO BE IT!"

Wouldn't make much difference to what we have now. It would only emphasize regardless of how well we are prepared we will loose but by using the Crucible.

[BansheeOwnage]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
If you have the result x in case 1, x in case 2, and y in case 3 while x != y you can say case 1 and case 2 are equal. This equality means that no matter what you do in the long run the same result occurs. Applied to the ending that means it doesn't matter if Shepard lives or dies. What matters is that she really activated the Crucible in order to achieve x. You don't need to know when etc it's playing. If you say "this cycle dies in Synthesis and x is placed in another cycle" you also have to say that any choice of destroy has the continuation of the cycle as a result. If the scene wouldn't give any ingame message and is only supposed to be counted as a message to the player the new opt out scene shouldn't be there, but it is, and makes it clear how it looks like what happens if the Crucible is not activated.

Actually, I believe I covered that argument, and agreed with you that whatever you do in the LONG run the same result occurs.  "Ripples in a pond".

But concerning ourselves with the "long run" isn't our goal.  What is Shepard's goal?  To save the races of the galaxy, friends, their loved ones and their way of life.  This is not the long run - this is distinctly short term.

The Catalyst's goal is to preserve life in the long run.  Which, as your interpretation of the Stargazer scene seems to show us, is pointless because regardless of our decision, life wil go on anyway.

The difference in the Strargazer scene is distinct:  Refuse and this cycle WILL NOT survive.  Choose - and it MAY survive.  Or it MAY NOT.  We don't know enough about the Stargazr scene to draw that conclusion either way.  And that's why the context is important.  We get that context with refuse.  It's clear that we failed, and a different cycle defeated the Reapers.  With the other choices, it's not clear whether we survived or not - only that life still goes on... one way or another.

Which would still lead to choosing any option doesn't matter in the end but to opt out.
The problem you create for yourself here is by saying if it shows another cycle we never destroyed the Reapers and always got indoctrinated. Which also contradicts IT and makes the last choice completely irrelevant. Do you really want that?

I'm sorry, how does that contradict IT?

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 06 décembre 2012 - 07:54 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
If you have the result x in case 1, x in case 2, and y in case 3 while x != y you can say case 1 and case 2 are equal. This equality means that no matter what you do in the long run the same result occurs. Applied to the ending that means it doesn't matter if Shepard lives or dies. What matters is that she really activated the Crucible in order to achieve x. You don't need to know when etc it's playing. If you say "this cycle dies in Synthesis and x is placed in another cycle" you also have to say that any choice of destroy has the continuation of the cycle as a result. If the scene wouldn't give any ingame message and is only supposed to be counted as a message to the player the new opt out scene shouldn't be there, but it is, and makes it clear how it looks like what happens if the Crucible is not activated.

Actually, I believe I covered that argument, and agreed with you that whatever you do in the LONG run the same result occurs.  "Ripples in a pond".

But concerning ourselves with the "long run" isn't our goal.  What is Shepard's goal?  To save the races of the galaxy, friends, their loved ones and their way of life.  This is not the long run - this is distinctly short term.

The Catalyst's goal is to preserve life in the long run.  Which, as your interpretation of the Stargazer scene seems to show us, is pointless because regardless of our decision, life wil go on anyway.

The difference in the Strargazer scene is distinct:  Refuse and this cycle WILL NOT survive.  Choose - and it MAY survive.  Or it MAY NOT.  We don't know enough about the Stargazr scene to draw that conclusion either way.  And that's why the context is important.  We get that context with refuse.  It's clear that we failed, and a different cycle defeated the Reapers.  With the other choices, it's not clear whether we survived or not - only that life still goes on... one way or another.

Which would still lead to choosing any option doesn't matter in the end but to opt out.
The problem you create for yourself here is by saying if it shows another cycle we never destroyed the Reapers and always got indoctrinated. Which also contradicts IT and makes the last choice completely irrelevant. Do you really want that?

Ehm I dont understand Mezumi. He specifically says that Refuse tells us this Cycle dident survive, while any of the 3 options leave us none the wiser as to its survival. How is that making the choices irrelevant?

In fact that leaves the door open to the posibility that depending on factors, like how prepared you were and the choice you make this choice may or may not survive depending entirely on what you do. 

[MegumiAzusa]

hukbum wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Low EMS options still disagree. Shepard dies in these options too.

Don't know, does all that IT stuff not include to play all games to realize it?
And it's quite hard to even get low EMS Destroy if you've played all games. Btw - if you get low EMS Destroy, yourShep really did something wrong

Doesn't matter and it's still a possibility.
Do things like saving Wrex in ME1 and then being a total scumbag in ME3 and kill Mordin, you will loose the complete support from the Krogans. Then in ME2 go on pick a choice with the Geth in Legions mission and then choose the opposite faction in ME3. With importing you can go way lower then with using the default Shep.

[MegumiAzusa]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Restrider wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

The problem here is that with the EC they introduced logical flaws in the argumentation of the Guardian and with the new epilog it shows that there are only two states in the long run, which is the crucible is fired or not. IT has to accommodate for the latter in order to make sense. But saying stuff like "there is a feedback and then all Reaper forces are just defeated" doesn't make any sense. The point is I do not know anything that could fix it, which results in my opinion that BW messed up.

Okay, I'll try to nicely add my take on this. It has been posted hundreds of pages ago - and it was probably missed - but I can understand that due to the amount of posts that are generated on a normal day in this thread.

Your point is that using the Crucible is different from not using it. Blur has his "out-of-narrative" explanation, I have another.

Regardless of the choice (RGB only, mind you), the Reapers are defeated in our cycle. We do not know how, though. One way could be that with the breath scene, Shepard breaks free and defeats the Reapers ... somehow.
For Synthesis/Control, you could say that Shepard can break free as well, but there are sacrifices that have to be made. Raistlin suggests that these sacrifices - the amount of it also depending on your EMS - are for example the Rachni Queen, Feros colonists/Shiala, Liara, other squadmates/LI, etc. Mainly assets that somehow can get into your mind and close friends. Through their sacrifice Shepard can break free for a certain amount of time to finish his job ... somehow.

Refuse on the other hand would be - and this is my personal take - an open confrontation to the Reapers, who in turn just kill you. Shepard dies. The Reapers defeat this cycle. Liara's time capsule saves the next cycle.

And before you start with nonsensical nitpicking. THIS IS JUST A PERSONAL INTERPRETATION/SPECULATION.
And it is common knowledge in this thread since the early 1000ers of Mark III.

Low EMS options still disagree. Shepard dies in these options too.

Dies according to the Catalyst. If it is all in Shepard's head we dont know what is happening to Shepard's body.

Dies according to the game files.