80611 réponses à ce sujet

[estebanus]

dorktainian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

estebanus wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

estebanus wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Which it wasn't supposed to be, but a bittersweet ending. Which it easily were before the EC.

'Bad' and 'bittersweet' are not the same thing.

It was meant to be bittersweet, but they ended up failing badly at it, making it a bad ending.

I know. This was about the end song that translates basically to 'bad'.

Malefiz is another word for doing a bad deed.

Yup. And Wiktionary describes it as:
1. histrical: a capital crime
2. it's usually a legal, moral, or ethical lapse

2. fits very well with the themes, and that it should be a bittersweet ending. It basically asks the question "did you really make the right choice?"

Yes, and it plays in every single ending. That means that it asks in each ending if you made the right coice, not just in synthesis and control. Funny thing though: It doesn't play in refuse. One could almost see that as refuse being the only right choice.

is this true?  OMG!!

It's true. The music is a sad, tragic tone, then it cuts to black and the credits roll.

[BleedingUranium]

estebanus wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

estebanus wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

estebanus wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Which it wasn't supposed to be, but a bittersweet ending. Which it easily were before the EC.

'Bad' and 'bittersweet' are not the same thing.

It was meant to be bittersweet, but they ended up failing badly at it, making it a bad ending.

Not if you believe the IT. It is a great ending 

If you believe the IT, it has no ending up until now. The potential for one remains, but there is no ending.

Right, so the "ending" is neither good nor bad, because it's not there.

...Meaning it can't be a great ending. It has the potential for being equally as bad as it was in the original ones. No ending means there can't be a good or bad one. It just means that the game is bad because the most meaningful part of it's gone.

No, you can't say anything about endings that don't exist. The rest is subjective.

If a book that you read doesn't have an ending, then it makes the entire book bad. If it ends the narrative before the end happens, it isn't good. 
Every work of literature needs an ending, be it ambiguous, open or definitive in its nature.

And in IT the breath scene closes the Shepard's Indoctrination story arc, that is an ending, just not an ending to the Reaper war. It's just like ME1/2 in that regard.

[dorktainian]

estebanus wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

estebanus wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

estebanus wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Which it wasn't supposed to be, but a bittersweet ending. Which it easily were before the EC.

'Bad' and 'bittersweet' are not the same thing.

It was meant to be bittersweet, but they ended up failing badly at it, making it a bad ending.

I know. This was about the end song that translates basically to 'bad'.

Malefiz is another word for doing a bad deed.

Yup. And Wiktionary describes it as:
1. histrical: a capital crime
2. it's usually a legal, moral, or ethical lapse

2. fits very well with the themes, and that it should be a bittersweet ending. It basically asks the question "did you really make the right choice?"

Yes, and it plays in every single ending. That means that it asks in each ending if you made the right coice, not just in synthesis and control. Funny thing though: It doesn't play in refuse. One could almost see that as refuse being the only right choice.

is this true?  OMG!!

It's true. The music is a sad, tragic tone, then it cuts to black and the credits roll.

must check this out on youtube.  this might change everything.

[RavenEyry]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Yup. And Wiktionary describes it as:
1. historical: a capital crime
2. it's usually a legal, moral, or ethical lapse

2. fits very well with the themes, and that it should be a bittersweet ending. It basically asks the question "did you really make the right choice?"
Esp after seeing your companions stranded on the planet, Normandy burning.

I personally disagree. It seems to be outright bad, not bitersweet. I don't consider capital crime to be a bit of good a bit of bad.

Are you purposely trolling?
Number 1 is its historical meaning, as you even quoted. That means it usually doesn't apply anymore. What applies is that it's a moral and ethical lapse, which is very well what this track can be asking the player "Was that really the right thing to do?" which is bittersweet.

Oh good. I'm a troll because I disagree with what a piece of music might mean. Grr, evil troll noises. Grr.

[tangythang]

paxxton wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

paxxton wrote...

tangythang wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

tangythang wrote...

You mean the fact that default male shepard eyes were blue, so is the ventboy
and default female shepard eyes were green, so is the sunflower-girl.

And the fact that both kid in the vent and the field plays the same alliance model ship, one that shepard/femshepard could purchase at kassa fabrication store,

and the fact that the boy were designed to look like shepard, complete with his background integrated into his fashion.
i.imgur.com/XlUYM.jpg
that's page 16 from the artbook you get when you buy collectors edition.

and that if the starbrat change gender correlated with shepards, it would be too damn obvious.

The kid is shepurd! 

Sunflower girl?

Something else that strikes me is that you'll notice they experimented a lot with the clothing, but never the actual child.  It's the exact same child, there was never any doubt as to what the child would look like, only his clothes.  Why is that?  ...  I'm not a betting man, but I'd probably bet money that kid was designed from a childhood photo they got from Mark Vanderloo.

If the kid was Shepard, wouldn't that mean the whole Indoctrination should be obvious to him. I mean he surely knows how he looked in childhood. On the other hand, if his mind is already seriously messed up from the get-go in ME3, making the child look familiar to him, makes him appear trustworthy to Shepard.

Put yourself in that position, would you immediately recognize yourself if you saw you in a dream?
I read an article about it, that psychologically, a person usually treat their past and future self as a stranger.
(I fot mistaken, from cracked, daww)

I never met myself from the past but I guess I would recognize myself.

Also, the first encounter with the kid is not in a dream but in Vancouver.

that might be true but don't forget that actually you are playing as shepard - so how would you recognise sheps younger self ? Also Vancover kid is a blatent vision/dream.

I didn't say I would recognize Shepard from his early years. What I mean is that the story should mention that (e.g. Shepard saying to Liara when she comes with the capsule to his cabin that he sees himself from childhood).

Yes, the kid in Vancouver is most likely a vision from the very beginning. But Shepard isn't asleep there so it's not a dream.

That's pretty realistic to me, I mean, If you have things as important as managing hundreds of war assets, daily dosage of bullets flying toward you, reapers be reapin everywhere, the fact that shepard have time to sleep is a luxury of its own kind.
pillow talk? aint nobody got time fo dat 

[BleedingUranium]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

No, I meant it mirrors the entire game. Everything goes great until the beam run, then everything's really confusing, then the very very end is all WTF

And I say it perfectly mirrors what you see at these moments. No need to expand it onto the whole game.

You're really telling me I'm wrong about this?

I'm telling you the assumption that it represents the game in the first place is baseless as it fully represents the moments it plays.

Baseless? I just told you why it does. Besides, this is not something I can be wrong about.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:27 .

[estebanus]

BleedingUranium wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

estebanus wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

estebanus wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Which it wasn't supposed to be, but a bittersweet ending. Which it easily were before the EC.

'Bad' and 'bittersweet' are not the same thing.

It was meant to be bittersweet, but they ended up failing badly at it, making it a bad ending.

Not if you believe the IT. It is a great ending 

If you believe the IT, it has no ending up until now. The potential for one remains, but there is no ending.

Right, so the "ending" is neither good nor bad, because it's not there.

...Meaning it can't be a great ending. It has the potential for being equally as bad as it was in the original ones. No ending means there can't be a good or bad one. It just means that the game is bad because the most meaningful part of it's gone.

No, you can't say anything about endings that don't exist. The rest is subjective.

If a book that you read doesn't have an ending, then it makes the entire book bad. If it ends the narrative before the end happens, it isn't good. 
Every work of literature needs an ending, be it ambiguous, open or definitive in its nature.

And in IT the breath scene closes the Shepard's Indoctrination story arc, that is an ending, just not an ending to the Reaper war. It's just like ME1/2 in that regard.

ME1 and 2 ended the game's narrative, but it didn't end the series' main plot. ME3 is the end of the series' narrative. It may end the indoctrination narrative, but not the plot that the series has established. This means that the most important arc has been left unfinished.

[MegumiAzusa]

dorktainian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

estebanus wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

estebanus wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Which it wasn't supposed to be, but a bittersweet ending. Which it easily were before the EC.

'Bad' and 'bittersweet' are not the same thing.

It was meant to be bittersweet, but they ended up failing badly at it, making it a bad ending.

I know. This was about the end song that translates basically to 'bad'.

Malefiz is another word for doing a bad deed.

Yup. And Wiktionary describes it as:
1. histrical: a capital crime
2. it's usually a legal, moral, or ethical lapse

2. fits very well with the themes, and that it should be a bittersweet ending. It basically asks the question "did you really make the right choice?"

Yes, and it plays in every single ending. That means that it asks in each ending if you made the right coice, not just in synthesis and control. Funny thing though: It doesn't play in refuse. One could almost see that as refuse being the only right choice.

is this true?  OMG!!

Objection!

[estebanus]

dorktainian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

estebanus wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

estebanus wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Which it wasn't supposed to be, but a bittersweet ending. Which it easily were before the EC.

'Bad' and 'bittersweet' are not the same thing.

It was meant to be bittersweet, but they ended up failing badly at it, making it a bad ending.

I know. This was about the end song that translates basically to 'bad'.

Malefiz is another word for doing a bad deed.

Yup. And Wiktionary describes it as:
1. histrical: a capital crime
2. it's usually a legal, moral, or ethical lapse

2. fits very well with the themes, and that it should be a bittersweet ending. It basically asks the question "did you really make the right choice?"

Yes, and it plays in every single ending. That means that it asks in each ending if you made the right coice, not just in synthesis and control. Funny thing though: It doesn't play in refuse. One could almost see that as refuse being the only right choice.

is this true?  OMG!!

It's true. The music is a sad, tragic tone, then it cuts to black and the credits roll.

must check this out on youtube.  this might change everything.

Don't forget that I'm talking about the ending cutscene, not the music that occurs when the credits roll. I don't know about that.

[BleedingUranium]

estebanus wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

And in IT the breath scene closes the Shepard's Indoctrination story arc, that is an ending, just not an ending to the Reaper war. It's just like ME1/2 in that regard.

ME1 and 2 ended the game's narrative, but it didn't end the series' main plot. ME3 is the end of the series' narrative. It may end the indoctrination narrative, but not the plot that the series has established. This means that the most important arc has been left unfinished.

Says you.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:29 .

[MegumiAzusa]

RavenEyry wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Yup. And Wiktionary describes it as:
1. historical: a capital crime
2. it's usually a legal, moral, or ethical lapse

2. fits very well with the themes, and that it should be a bittersweet ending. It basically asks the question "did you really make the right choice?"
Esp after seeing your companions stranded on the planet, Normandy burning.

I personally disagree. It seems to be outright bad, not bitersweet. I don't consider capital crime to be a bit of good a bit of bad.

Are you purposely trolling?
Number 1 is its historical meaning, as you even quoted. That means it usually doesn't apply anymore. What applies is that it's a moral and ethical lapse, which is very well what this track can be asking the player "Was that really the right thing to do?" which is bittersweet.

Oh good. I'm a troll because I disagree with what a piece of music might mean. Grr, evil troll noises. Grr.

Yeah I give you two meanings, where one of them fits perfectly, you choose the other one which doesn't fit and go all "it doesn't fit".

[estebanus]

BleedingUranium wrote...


Says you.

Says BioWare, time and again. They have again and again said that ME3 will be the end of Shepard and the story arc they established in ME1.

You even admit to the IT not ending the series' main plot, and that's what I'm getting at. 

Modifié par estebanus, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:31 .

[MegumiAzusa]

estebanus wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...


Says you.

Says BioWare, time and again. 

You even admit to the IT not ending the series' main plot, and that's what I'm getting at.

True, you basically support "buy our real ending now! only $20!"

[Restrider]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Restrider wrote...

Eryri wrote..

Another way-out, but enjoyable theory, is the stargazer and his grandson are blissfully unaware that they are merely self-aware sub-programs running in the wetware of a new reaper. Their idillic little planet is just a pleasant version of the matrix to keep their conscious minds placid, while their subconscious minds comprise the gestalt intellect of the reaper.

There's no great evidence for this theory, and I can't remember who came up with it, but it appeals to my love of mind****ery. EDIT: Actually I think it might have been BleedingUranium's idea?

On another different but related topic - if the EC and refuse ending as we currently know them really were unplanned bandaids to quell fan outrage, I wonder if Bioware will strike them from canon as they did with the botched Deception novel, if and when the "true" ending is revealed?

I find it interesting that the EC is not included by default in the Trilogy pack (although it is in the WiiU version which now that I think of it, counts against this idea a bit). 

I have one remark to make:
It is one common interpretation amongst ITers to assume that the slideshows are part of the hallucination - something like Shepard's mind justifying his decision and showing him a future with hope.
Furthermore it is considered that the Normandy crash-landing on that garden world is also part of this hallucination, to give him closure regarding his closest friends and LI (I'd like to mention otter's interpretation that the garden world and the sinister forest of Shepard's dreams are antagonizing scenery - a shame that his posts were utterly ignored during the troll-fest and internal bickering).



Now, it is obvious that the garden world - where all stargazer scenes take place - have a familiar sky setting. I think it is save to assume that these planets are indeed identical.



If we assume that the first time this planet is shown to us is during a hallucinatory state, then the second time we see this planet - namely the stargazer scene - should be also part of a hallucination. If we assume this, what meaning does the stargazer scene actually have for the real world? None...?

Again, this is my personal interpretation.

Apart from the fact that the EC slides play after the planet and on low EMS Shep dies at the moment the Normandy door opens. Again the EC breaks it.

So, we have the following chronology:
Normandy crash lands on garden world -> Shepard dies in low EMS according to files -> slide show -> memorial wall/Normandy leaves planet -> breath scene in high EMS Destroy -> stargazer scene on presumabely the same planet

The colours show the same stage of reallity. The red events are all taking place on that garden world and thus should take place in the same reality - presumably a form of hallucinatory state.
The blue events presumably take place in the real world.
I think the question here is how reliable the whole concept of Shepard dying in the files is. I am not questioning that it is flagged that way, but are we sure that there are no other examples where people were flagged as dead, but were not?

[RavenEyry]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Yeah I give you two meanings, where one of them fits perfectly, you
choose the other one which doesn't fit and go all "it doesn't fit"

OH SORRY! I couldn't be bothered to write both meanings! I'm such an evil dick!

OK LETS TRY AGAIN:
I personally feel being accused of a capital crime or an ethical lapse is worse than 'bittersweet'.

Is that better!? Is that better for your poor delicate eyes?

Modifié par RavenEyry, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:34 .

[estebanus]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...


Says you.

Says BioWare, time and again. 

You even admit to the IT not ending the series' main plot, and that's what I'm getting at.

True, you basically support "buy our real ending now! only $20!"

I think he's getting at it being free.

[BleedingUranium]

estebanus wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...


Says you.

Says BioWare, time and again. They have again and again said that ME3 will be the end of Shepard and the story arc they established in ME1.

You even admit to the IT not ending the series' main plot, and that's what I'm getting at. 

They've said a lot of things. Besides, they'd never admit that anyway, that'd ruin everything.

[BleedingUranium]

estebanus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...


Says you.

Says BioWare, time and again. 

You even admit to the IT not ending the series' main plot, and that's what I'm getting at.

True, you basically support "buy our real ending now! only $20!"

I think he's getting at it being free.

Actually, I don't care either way. If you're going to complain about paying for seperate story, shouldn't you also be complaining buying ME1 didn't get you a complete, finished story. Because it didn't.

[tangythang]

[quote]MegumiAzusa wrote...

[quote]estebanus wrote...

[quote]BleedingUranium wrote...


Says you.[/quote]Says BioWare, time and again.[/quote] 


I had enough of your snide insinuation
*click*

Modifié par tangythang, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:40 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Restrider wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Restrider wrote...

Eryri wrote..

Another way-out, but enjoyable theory, is the stargazer and his grandson are blissfully unaware that they are merely self-aware sub-programs running in the wetware of a new reaper. Their idillic little planet is just a pleasant version of the matrix to keep their conscious minds placid, while their subconscious minds comprise the gestalt intellect of the reaper.

There's no great evidence for this theory, and I can't remember who came up with it, but it appeals to my love of mind****ery. EDIT: Actually I think it might have been BleedingUranium's idea?

On another different but related topic - if the EC and refuse ending as we currently know them really were unplanned bandaids to quell fan outrage, I wonder if Bioware will strike them from canon as they did with the botched Deception novel, if and when the "true" ending is revealed?

I find it interesting that the EC is not included by default in the Trilogy pack (although it is in the WiiU version which now that I think of it, counts against this idea a bit). 

I have one remark to make:
It is one common interpretation amongst ITers to assume that the slideshows are part of the hallucination - something like Shepard's mind justifying his decision and showing him a future with hope.
Furthermore it is considered that the Normandy crash-landing on that garden world is also part of this hallucination, to give him closure regarding his closest friends and LI (I'd like to mention otter's interpretation that the garden world and the sinister forest of Shepard's dreams are antagonizing scenery - a shame that his posts were utterly ignored during the troll-fest and internal bickering).



Now, it is obvious that the garden world - where all stargazer scenes take place - have a familiar sky setting. I think it is save to assume that these planets are indeed identical.



If we assume that the first time this planet is shown to us is during a hallucinatory state, then the second time we see this planet - namely the stargazer scene - should be also part of a hallucination. If we assume this, what meaning does the stargazer scene actually have for the real world? None...?

Again, this is my personal interpretation.

Apart from the fact that the EC slides play after the planet and on low EMS Shep dies at the moment the Normandy door opens. Again the EC breaks it.

So, we have the following chronology:
[color=rgb(255, 0, 0)">Normandy crash lands on garden world ->]Shepard dies in low EMS according to files[/color] -> slide show -> [color=rgb(255, 0, 0)">memorial wall/Normandy leaves planet ->]breath scene in high EMS [/color]Destroy -> stargazer scene on presumabely the same planet

The colours show the same stage of reallity. The red events are all taking place on that garden world and thus should take place in the same reality - presumably a form of hallucinatory state.
The blue events presumably take place in the real world.
I think the question here is how reliable the whole concept of Shepard dying in the files is. I am not questioning that it is flagged that way, but are we sure that there are no other examples where people were flagged as dead, but were not?

There is no flag Shep alive/dead as it just doesn't exist. It's the namings for the specific file that only plays in that case (you can even hear the difference between low EMS and other cases, in low EMS the animals on the planet go completely wild and are squashed in one moment, just like the Normandy scene before).
And again it's not only the dying but also the breath scene that makes it highly unlikely for the epilog being on an unreal planet in dreamland.

The only thing that was bugged was Tali Necromancy if you romanced her, but that was not a false flag but someone forgetting to check for it.

[estebanus]

BleedingUranium wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...


Says you.

Says BioWare, time and again. They have again and again said that ME3 will be the end of Shepard and the story arc they established in ME1.

You even admit to the IT not ending the series' main plot, and that's what I'm getting at. 

They've said a lot of things. Besides, they'd never admit that anyway, that'd ruin everything.

Oh, so they're liars now? Mind telling me what other things they've lied about?

When word of god dictates that something in their story is as it is. then that's it. They've said the narrative will end in ME3. And from what we've seen until now, that's exactly what it does.

[MegumiAzusa]

estebanus wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...


Says you.

Says BioWare, time and again. 

You even admit to the IT not ending the series' main plot, and that's what I'm getting at.

True, you basically support "buy our real ending now! only $20!"

I think he's getting at it being free.

Leviathan disagrees with this assertion.

[MegumiAzusa]

tangythang wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...


Says you.

Says BioWare, time and again.

 


I had enough of your snide insinuation
*click*

Your quoting tree doesn't make any sense and isn't even a quote.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:44 .

[dorktainian]

wow top again!!


just watched the refusal ending again....omg how good is that as far as retaining our free will is concerned? faunts still plays. however watching it gave me an immense amount of pride that shep could see past the star brats lies.

Modifié par dorktainian, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:45 .

[BleedingUranium]

estebanus wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...


Says you.

Says BioWare, time and again. They have again and again said that ME3 will be the end of Shepard and the story arc they established in ME1.

You even admit to the IT not ending the series' main plot, and that's what I'm getting at. 

They've said a lot of things. Besides, they'd never admit that anyway, that'd ruin everything.

Oh, so they're liars now? Mind telling me what other things they've lied about?

When word of god dictates that something in their story is as it is. then that's it. They've said the narrative will end in ME3. And from what we've seen until now, that's exactly what it does.

Not liars, that not the term I'd use. More like, did they deny changing the ending before before announcing the Extended Cut? Yes.

Leviathan? Yes.

Omega? Yes.

ME3 Multiplayer? Yes.

Each DLC for MP individually? Yes.

Does every single other company do this? Yes.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:45 .