80611 réponses à ce sujet

[BleedingUranium]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

what if the citadel itself is a reaper? The Ultimate Reaper?

Also Liara has liar in it.

Liara is a species of butterflies goshdamit.

That's awesome

Restrider wrote...

I have been thinking about what I have posted yesterday. I'll shortly recap it:

If the garden world, where the Normandy crash-lands on, is the same world the stargazer scene takes place, then these two events have to play out in the same level of reality/non-reality.

If that is the case, the crash scene and stargazer scene are either both real or both hallucinatory.
I go for the latter and thus the whole discussion of using the Crucible having different effects to not using it is moot, since it is something outside of reality.
You could now question how the breath scene can make any sense in this, since it plays out between the crash scene and the stargazer scene. A way to explain that could be that you dip out of the dream and dip in again. Much like during the beginning of ME2, where you shortly wake up seeing Miranda's face and are getting sedated again.
In any way, I have come to my personal conclusion that the stargazer scene is also hallucinatory or that everything after the choices is real.
Of course the stargazer scene could also be something outside of the narrative (Blur's take on it, afaik), but in no way can the stargazer scene be literal with everything before that being non-literal, it just does not fit in my view.

That could make sense. Actually, Shepard also does this in Leviathan (or at least, the player does).

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 07 décembre 2012 - 02:48 .

[paxxton]

dorktainian wrote...

paxxton wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

paxxton wrote...

estebanus wrote...

paxxton wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I only heard BioWare saying ME3 would be the end of Shepard's story, not the whole Reaper turmoil.

Right, it was always "The end of Shepard's story" and "Take Earth back".

I haven't seen that happening with the IT. 

Shepard's story and goal is aligned with that of the main plot, which is to stop the reapers. That's always been the protagonists story and goal in fiction: To defeat the bad guys. That's what stopping the reapers is about. 

From word of god themselves: "award-winning series, Mass Effect 3 offers a unique opening narrative to immerse you in the storyline and characters, quickly and easily preparing you for the beginning, middle, and end of a galactic war for survival." 

This is from their main website.

There are 2 possivilities:
1. Shepard has failed.
2. IT and BioWare simply repeats their PR line from before the game's release to not give away the Secret (pun intended).

But Shepard hasn't failed! S/he stopped the reaper menace in each ending!

No, he didn't. The Breath Scene is a peek into the real world and the Reapers are still around.

Yes they are clearly horning and stomping around in that scene. How could I have missed that so far? :C

I heard Reapers. That was my very first thought: Shepard is in London and the Reapers are wandering around shooting lasers and destroying the city, possibly because they don't need it anymore.

yep.  beam in the background, concrete structures (on the citadel?.....err....nope) suspicious object rho looking reaper artifacts as you pan across screen, the sound of the beam, and the fact that after shep is hit at the base of the beam everything goes to lalaland - including a gun with infinite bullets.  Wake up neo.  

The beam was deactivated in that scene, actually.

[estebanus]

paxxton wrote...

estebanus wrote...

paxxton wrote...

estebanus wrote...

paxxton wrote...

estebanus wrote...

paxxton wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I only heard BioWare saying ME3 would be the end of Shepard's story, not the whole Reaper turmoil.

Right, it was always "The end of Shepard's story" and "Take Earth back".

I haven't seen that happening with the IT. 

Shepard's story and goal is aligned with that of the main plot, which is to stop the reapers. That's always been the protagonists story and goal in fiction: To defeat the bad guys. That's what stopping the reapers is about. 

From word of god themselves: "award-winning series, Mass Effect 3 offers a unique opening narrative to immerse you in the storyline and characters, quickly and easily preparing you for the beginning, middle, and end of a galactic war for survival." 

This is from their main website.

There are 2 possivilities:
1. Shepard has failed.
2. IT and BioWare simply repeats their PR line from before the game's release to not give away the Secret (pun intended).

But Shepard hasn't failed! S/he stopped the reaper menace in each ending!

No, he didn't. The Breath Scene is a peek into the real world and the Reapers are still around.

Assuming IT, yes.

Even in the literal ending, Shepard wakes up in London. To say otherwise is madness. There is no force field on the Citadel to out of the blue protect Shepard from the blast and even if there were, why would everything contained within it be crushed into rubble? This is just common sense.

Shepard shouldn't even be alive. It makes no sense. That's established, and it's a good point for the IT.

Indoctrination happens in the Literal Ending. This is a fact and I have just proven it irrefutably!!!

haha NO. I believe that the same people who made a character die and resurrect could still make that mistake.

Plus, force fields will normally activate in the case of a hull breach. It's throughout sci-fi.

[Restrider]

Paxxton and estebanus, slavery is bad...!

Modifié par Restrider, 07 décembre 2012 - 02:50 .

[KyreneZA]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Kyrene wrote...

Oh boy! When is the fighting in the IT thread gonna stop. Finding good information here is like finding a pinch of gold in a dungheap most days.

When Estebanus and Megumi decide to stop acting like interrogators instead of discussing things from a nuetral perspective.

Axe grinding doesn't help.  And I've seen you (and other 'core' ITers) be just as disruptive to this thread.

[/speaking mostly as an observer here]

Antagonistic (the English fails me here) interrogation of IT beliefs is good for IT IMO. Too much of what people believe about IT is not based on IT 'facts' (evidence), but on hearsay or their own clouded theories.

And look, now it seems I'm fighting too.  Is it something in the water?

[CmdrShep80]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

You can even take it from the indoctrinated they both turn on you threatening to destroy the ship in two different ways and you have only one chance to snap one of them out of it but you get 1 real time minute to decide how you'll save the ship and who you snap out and who dies by your hand

I did a Poll on this

does the shamelessly promoting poll like restrider does. 

P.S. spot asked me to do another based on Tali - Garrus - Liara. I'll do that after work

[Restrider]

Mhm, out of curiosity:
Since estabanus and Megumi challange the current state of IT, I am genuinely curious to know what your takes on the endings are?
Everything literal? Waking Nightmare? Deception Theory? Bad Writing? Something completely different?
I always see you trying to deconstruct the IT (this is not meant to be offensive or judgemental btw!), but in contrast to Heretic_Hanar, who has often stated that he thinks Bad Writing is what happened, I am not so sure what you think...

[dorktainian]

paxxton wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

paxxton wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

paxxton wrote...

estebanus wrote...

paxxton wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I only heard BioWare saying ME3 would be the end of Shepard's story, not the whole Reaper turmoil.

Right, it was always "The end of Shepard's story" and "Take Earth back".

I haven't seen that happening with the IT. 

Shepard's story and goal is aligned with that of the main plot, which is to stop the reapers. That's always been the protagonists story and goal in fiction: To defeat the bad guys. That's what stopping the reapers is about. 

From word of god themselves: "award-winning series, Mass Effect 3 offers a unique opening narrative to immerse you in the storyline and characters, quickly and easily preparing you for the beginning, middle, and end of a galactic war for survival." 

This is from their main website.

There are 2 possivilities:
1. Shepard has failed.
2. IT and BioWare simply repeats their PR line from before the game's release to not give away the Secret (pun intended).

But Shepard hasn't failed! S/he stopped the reaper menace in each ending!

No, he didn't. The Breath Scene is a peek into the real world and the Reapers are still around.

Yes they are clearly horning and stomping around in that scene. How could I have missed that so far? :C

I heard Reapers. That was my very first thought: Shepard is in London and the Reapers are wandering around shooting lasers and destroying the city, possibly because they don't need it anymore.

yep.  beam in the background, concrete structures (on the citadel?.....err....nope) suspicious object rho looking reaper artifacts as you pan across screen, the sound of the beam, and the fact that after shep is hit at the base of the beam everything goes to lalaland - including a gun with infinite bullets.  Wake up neo.  

The beam was deactivated in that scene, actually.

its showing you red = good (wake up) and blue = bad (stay indoctrinated)

[estebanus]

Restrider wrote...

Paxxton and estebanus, slavery is bad...!

There's no slavery here! Everybody working on this pyramid are loyal and loving servants of the people's republic of China! Nobody here has been forced to do anything! 

*Sees that one worker has stopped working and shoots him with the AK" 

See! absolutely nothing wrong here!

[Lokanaiya]

About the poppies on the Citadel, did you know that the drug opium (highly addictive, calms you down a lot) also comes from poppies? Poppies which are also red? I'm on my phone now so I can't go too much into detail, but basically opium addiction in the late 1800s is what changed China from a great superpower that ruled a lot of the East and heavily influenced what it didn't rule to a weak nation easily conquered by the English.

Let's think about that... A great power, both militarily and culturally, that either ruled or heavily influenced its area... Weakened by something that seemed harmless and maybe even helpful at first... But which allowed powerful foreigners with a strong military to easily conquer the "great power"... Sound familiar? If not, consider the first time you visit the Citadel. Shepard, James, and Joker all comment on how peaceful it seems, almost unnaturally so.

Now I'm not suggesting anything literal here, but rather symbolic. Because these flowers aren't just on the Leviathan part of the Citadel. They're all over the place. I think Bioware is trying to point something out about the Citadel.

(Although I bet this post is going to too late for any discussion regarding the poppies. : /)

[BatmanTurian]

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Kyrene wrote...

Oh boy! When is the fighting in the IT thread gonna stop. Finding good information here is like finding a pinch of gold in a dungheap most days.

When Estebanus and Megumi decide to stop acting like interrogators instead of discussing things from a nuetral perspective.

Yeah, you're all poor victims of our cruel injustice. It's everything just too deep for me and Megumi to understand it all.

Stop acting like you're the victim. Both sides are equally guilty.

I'm not pretending anything. I just see two people making arguments in a less civil way than is needed sometimes. Getting overly emotional about it won't make changing yourself any easier if you can't look in a mirror.

[Sirartistic]

What saddens me is that so many people do not realize that the ME series is a mess. The story is nothing but a collection of ideas, except for the first game which had a clear organics vs synthetic theme with the Reapers and the Geth. The story was simple but yet ellegant in its handling. Also, the mood and feel that Bioware had created made the universe feel vast and mysterious.

Now, where things went wrong was this: Bioware was aquired by EA who made them change this intelligent game into a more mainstream game. ME2 was louder, more bombastic, and it had a less cohesive and intelligent story.

Take a quick look at ME2's premise: The Reapers are kidnapping Humans with the help of beings called "Collectors" so that they can create a human Reaper. What is the point of this??? This is where the series went off the rails. If Bioware had simply kept with the Reaper/ Geth threat, with a few more twists, a new baddie ( Perhaps Cerberus could have been the primary bad guy at this point) then the story would have made sense, and it would have carried more weight and importance to ME3.

ME3's premise was put back on the track, but the damage was already done. ME2 failed to progress the main story line, instead it took it nowhere. Imagen if Shepard had fought Cerberus in ME2 and lost like "Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back." Gamers would have more insentive than ever to continue the story or want to see what happened next.

In conclusion, I hope that Bioware and many of the fans who fail to see the great flaws in this otherwise beautiful series, come to realize that story is the most crusial thing in the RPG world, not action. If a story lacks a chohisvie theme, and strong characters then the game will not work. For ME4, please sit with talented and knowlegeable writers who know how to write a lenghty story. Good Luck BioWare.

[hukbum]

Restrider wrote...

Paxxton and estebanus, slavery is bad...!

I miss the old newsgroups where people had to fear physical consequences if they dare to not quote propperly

[estebanus]

Restrider wrote...

Mhm, out of curiosity:
Since estabanus and Megumi challange the current state of IT, I am genuinely curious to know what your takes on the endings are?
Everything literal? Waking Nightmare? Deception Theory? Bad Writing? Something completely different?
I always see you trying to deconstruct the IT (this is not meant to be offensive or judgemental btw!), but in contrast to Heretic_Hanar, who has often stated that he thinks Bad Writing is what happened, I am not so sure what you think...

I don't know what happened. I don't know if it was waking nightmare, if it was Ouzzle theory, if it was literal, or something else. 

If I'd have to choose, I'd say PT.

[Humakt83]

Considering plants, have anyone figured out what the plant with red leaves is? Like "red poppies" it is all over the place.

[BatmanTurian]

Kyrene wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Kyrene wrote...

Oh boy! When is the fighting in the IT thread gonna stop. Finding good information here is like finding a pinch of gold in a dungheap most days.

When Estebanus and Megumi decide to stop acting like interrogators instead of discussing things from a nuetral perspective.

Axe grinding doesn't help.  And I've seen you (and other 'core' ITers) be just as disruptive to this thread.

[/speaking mostly as an observer here]

Antagonistic (the English fails me here) interrogation of IT beliefs is good for IT IMO. Too much of what people believe about IT is not based on IT 'facts' (evidence), but on hearsay or their own clouded theories.

And look, now it seems I'm fighting too.  Is it something in the water?

I've only responded to hostility. This is actually something I rarely do. Your view of me is skewed.

[RavenEyry]

Kyrene wrote...

Antagonistic (the English fails me here) interrogation of IT beliefs is good for IT IMO. Too much of what people believe about IT is not based on IT 'facts' (evidence), but on hearsay or their own clouded theories.

I agree. The problem is many people use personal insults at the same time, which leads to mudslinging instead of debate on the actual topic.

[Norlond]

Put this on top of your pyramid and it shall never be cut down

375x300http://www.allmystery.de/dateien/uh43048,1263313962,pyramid_head.jpg[/img]

But seriously, spare us the scrolling, would you?

[KyreneZA]

Restrider wrote...

Kyrene wrote...

Oh boy! When is the fighting in the IT thread gonna stop. Finding good information here is like finding a pinch of gold in a dungheap most days.

I have found something interesting - at least in my view. Just check out the post above your post. Maybe we can start a discussion without bickering and nitpicking.

I have read it, along with other gems. I'm afraid discussion would soon be drowned out by another troll invasion or egos clashing...

[Restrider]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

CmdrShep80 wrote...

You can even take it from the indoctrinated they both turn on you threatening to destroy the ship in two different ways and you have only one chance to snap one of them out of it but you get 1 real time minute to decide how you'll save the ship and who you snap out and who dies by your hand

I did a Poll on this

does the shamelessly promoting poll like restrider does. 

P.S. spot asked me to do another based on Tali - Garrus - Liara. I'll do that after work

My comment:
Easy! Save Joker, romance Allers, kill Allers, hook up with [instert favourite LI].

[DoomsdayDevice]

Guys, this will only stop if we ignore the people who bring nothing to the table but 'endings are literal, Bioware said story is over!'. We already have Hanar whose sole purpose in life is to tell us that.

Asking hard questions is good for IT, but I really don't see how that kind of argument is going to help the discussion.

I'm out of here. Some people simply seem hell-bent on ruining the thread instead of speculating and discussing new finds. You know, the fun stuff.

[estebanus]

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Kyrene wrote...

Oh boy! When is the fighting in the IT thread gonna stop. Finding good information here is like finding a pinch of gold in a dungheap most days.

When Estebanus and Megumi decide to stop acting like interrogators instead of discussing things from a nuetral perspective.

Yeah, you're all poor victims of our cruel injustice. It's everything just too deep for me and Megumi to understand it all.

Stop acting like you're the victim. Both sides are equally guilty.

I'm not pretending anything. I just see two people making arguments in a less civil way than is needed sometimes. Getting overly emotional about it won't make changing yourself any easier if you can't look in a mirror.

I could say the same about many ITers who say that everyone else but them is a weak-minded idiot, that they're blind to the truth, that it's too deep for them and several other things. 

[KyreneZA]

tangythang wrote...

You want. Here's literal alternative with hard science fiction.

The reason that shepard awake in the end of destroy ending with high EMS is due to a few factor:
1. The starchild, be it reaper-in-disguise or honest-catalyst-boy are letting Shepard makes all the choices FREELY due to an unquantifiable probability that will result in an explosion of that size, similar to the geth letting quarian leaves. All it does is to provide an estimation as to what will happen for each possible solution.

2. The reason those explosion are colored either Red, Green, or Blue are the result of the law of physics called the doppler effect, that is what happen when waves of light are contracted or compressed with relation to the observer. In other word, the effect of the crucible can be manipulated by tuning the energy wave (dark energy from manipulation of eezo, that is given from the codex/god) either by lowering its frequency to destroy (red), keep it as its intended (green) or increasing it to control (hence, blue)

*note: redshift blueshift is what you saw in loading screen. 

3. All choices resulted in a generation of energy so great, the space itself starts to boil. Keep in mind, this is reaper tech Shepard's using, a tier IV civilization according to kardashev scale (us human are Tier II in this case, left behind by billions of years). starchild-thingy dissapears immediately, not a single frak given.

4. Space-time start to distort, enabling shepard to see a vision ahead into the future resulting from the choice he made, a moment before he's evaporated (control), or disseminated (synthesis).

But in the destroy ending with high EMS, he gasp for air as he realize it's not that fun to end this way (loading the game and play again, for literal fun )

5.the refusal ending is as it was, Shepard chickens out in the end.

Viable alternative... must congratulate... though *nasal intake of breath* not IT, Shepard!

[paxxton]

[quote]estebanus wrote...

[quote]paxxton wrote...

[quote]estebanus wrote...

[quote]paxxton wrote...

[quote]estebanus wrote...

[quote]paxxton wrote...

[quote]estebanus wrote...

[quote]paxxton wrote...

[quote]estebanus wrote...

[quote]BleedingUranium wrote...

[quote]paxxton wrote...

I only heard BioWare saying ME3 would be the end of Shepard's story, not the whole Reaper turmoil.[/quote]

Right, it was always "The end of Shepard's story" and "Take Earth back".[/quote]I haven't seen that happening with the IT. 

Shepard's story and goal is aligned with that of the main plot, which is to stop the reapers. That's always been the protagonists story and goal in fiction: To defeat the bad guys. That's what stopping the reapers is about. 

From word of god themselves: "award-winning series, Mass Effect 3 offers a unique opening narrative to immerse you in the storyline and characters, quickly and easily preparing you for the beginning, middle, and end of a galactic war for survival." 

This is from their main website.

[/quote]
There are 2 possivilities:
1. Shepard has failed.
2. IT and BioWare simply repeats their PR line from before the game's release to not give away the Secret (pun intended).[/quote]But Shepard hasn't failed! S/he stopped the reaper menace in each ending!
[/quote]
No, he didn't. The Breath Scene is a peek into the real world and the Reapers are still around.[/quote]Assuming IT, yes.
[/quote]
Even in the literal ending, Shepard wakes up in London. To say otherwise is madness. There is no force field on the Citadel to out of the blue protect Shepard from the blast and even if there were, why would everything contained within it be crushed into rubble? This is just common sense.[/quote]Shepard shouldn't even be alive. It makes no sense. That's established, and it's a good point for the IT.


[/quote]
Indoctrination happens in the Literal Ending. This is a fact and I have just proven it irrefutably!!![/quote]haha NO. I believe that the same people who made a character die and resurrect could still make that mistake.

Plus, force fields will normally activate in the case of a hull breach. It's throughout sci-fi.

[/quote]
Shepard is outside the hull of the Citadel. Even if a force field of some kind was established, it would be protecting only the space under Shepard's feet. In the ending Shepard is actually walking on the hull of the Citadel. And there is no magical bubble that would suddenly start to encompass the decision chamber if Shepard was there.

Plus, you don't activate anything by destroying something that is part of it (or connects to it). And don't tell me that the tube pumps coolant to the Crucible because destroying it would make the Crucible blow up, not fire. Yeah, right, maybe it blew up and killed the whole Galaxy in the low-EMS ending.

Modifié par paxxton, 07 décembre 2012 - 03:02 .

[MegumiAzusa]

dorktainian wrote...

paxxton wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

paxxton wrote...

estebanus wrote...

paxxton wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I only heard BioWare saying ME3 would be the end of Shepard's story, not the whole Reaper turmoil.

Right, it was always "The end of Shepard's story" and "Take Earth back".

I haven't seen that happening with the IT. 

Shepard's story and goal is aligned with that of the main plot, which is to stop the reapers. That's always been the protagonists story and goal in fiction: To defeat the bad guys. That's what stopping the reapers is about. 

From word of god themselves: "award-winning series, Mass Effect 3 offers a unique opening narrative to immerse you in the storyline and characters, quickly and easily preparing you for the beginning, middle, and end of a galactic war for survival." 

This is from their main website.

There are 2 possivilities:
1. Shepard has failed.
2. IT and BioWare simply repeats their PR line from before the game's release to not give away the Secret (pun intended).

But Shepard hasn't failed! S/he stopped the reaper menace in each ending!

No, he didn't. The Breath Scene is a peek into the real world and the Reapers are still around.

Yes they are clearly horning and stomping around in that scene. How could I have missed that so far? :C

I heard Reapers. That was my very first thought: Shepard is in London and the Reapers are wandering around shooting lasers and destroying the city, possibly because they don't need it anymore.

yep.  beam in the background, concrete structures (on the citadel?.....err....nope) suspicious object rho looking reaper artifacts as you pan across screen, the sound of the beam, and the fact that after shep is hit at the base of the beam everything goes to lalaland - including a gun with infinite bullets.  Wake up neo.  

Beam in the background? Where? Please show me something to indicate this.
Concrete: as evidenced it has the same textures used for stuff on the Citadel and Earth, you cannot say it's on Earth because of that.
Reaper stuff: I would expect that under the shell of the Citadel, wouldn't you?
The sound: sounds like metal or metallike stuff under stress for me.
infinite ammo: without the three husketeers and marauder shields would be even more depressing for console players.