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[OneWithTheAssassins]

T

BlazingZephyr wrote...

byne wrote...


Oh, right. The synthesis part was originally on the list, but I removed it so I could play the 'Who am I talking about' game, since saying either they do support synthesis or could support synthesis would ruin the stupid game.

Now that I think of it, your list would specifically be a Full Paragon (Synthesis is viewed as such by many people) Shepard. That makes your observation even stranger, since Saren could be viewed as "ends justify means"
Renegade (join Reapers to ensure survival of the cycle).

 
Its almost as though that Shepard becomes the very evil (s)he was fighting against... Both are very charasmatic people, able to convince almost anyone to join their cause, and both truly thought they were doing the right thing. I feel as though this will be brought up at some point with future DLC.

[BlazingZephyr]

OneWithTheAssassins wrote...

T

BlazingZephyr wrote...

byne wrote...


Oh, right. The synthesis part was originally on the list, but I removed it so I could play the 'Who am I talking about' game, since saying either they do support synthesis or could support synthesis would ruin the stupid game.

Now that I think of it, your list would specifically be a Full Paragon (Synthesis is viewed as such by many people) Shepard. That makes your observation even stranger, since Saren could be viewed as "ends justify means"
Renegade (join Reapers to ensure survival of the cycle).

 
Its almost as though that Shepard becomes the very evil (s)he was fighting against... Both are very charasmatic people, able to convince almost anyone to join their cause, and both truly thought they were doing the right thing. I feel as though this will be brought up at some point with future DLC.

The thing about this, though, is that these aren't all necessarily bad things, so Shepard becoming a "monster," as Arian said, doesn't totally fit. Shepard is doing the right thing and, unless you count the end, is not assisting the reapers in any way.

However, I can't really say these similarities aren't uncanny.

Modifié par BlazingZephyr, 07 août 2012 - 02:43 .

[Simon_Says]

It's apparent that Shepard had numerous shadows throughout the series. Saren, Javik, even TIM.

We know that Shepard and Saren can be seen as the same, just on different ends of good/evil divide. Javik, though a 'good guy' is Shepard's mirror in motivation and beliefs. TIM is in many ways Renegade!Shepard writ large.

The similarities are there. That much is obvious. The question then is there anything we can then extrapolate from that information that we're not yet aware of?

Modifié par Simon_Says, 07 août 2012 - 02:46 .

[smokingotter1]

Hey Guys, just letting you all know I'm still here... after my temper tantrum I'm crawling back into the forum doing walk of shame. Wait, otters have no shame, nm.

You guys were talking about the weapon bob at the end of ME3 and I always found that weird also. Then I started watching the play-demo of Leviathan DLC  on Gamespot, the weapon bob is similar to the weapon bob Shepard has during the Leviathan demo, same type of Bob. Of course this bob is caused by the ocean currents, but could it be a reference?

Modifié par smokingotter1, 07 août 2012 - 02:23 .

[Rifneno]

BlazingZephyr wrote...

Now that I think of it, your list would specifically be a Full Paragon (Synthesis is viewed as such by many people) Shepard. That makes your observation even stranger, since Saren could be viewed as "ends justify means"
Renegade (join Reapers to ensure survival of the cycle).

Could be? A biography of Saren would be called "The Ends Justify the Means. That's Why I'm Shooting You." Almost everytime Saren pops up in the books, he's doing something terrible because he only cares about the ends. Torture, murder, you name it. I think Saren is more apt for Arian's monsters quote than Shepard for that reason. He probably did start off good, intending to make the galaxy a better place. He thought he was right up until the end, even pre-Sovereign. But soon enough all he focused on was the ends. On occasion, terrible things must be done for the greater good. Aratoht was a good example of that. But for Saren, on occasion was all the time. He made no attempt to do things without horrible methods and the price of his "victories" never bothered him in the least.

Speaking of Atatoht, I found this in my old motivationals file from right after Arrival came out. I must be some kind of prophet lol.

[byne]

smokingotter1 wrote...

Hey Guys, just letting you all know I'm still here... after my left temper tantrum I'm crawling back into the forum doing walk of shame. Wait, otters have no shame, nm.

You guys were talking about the weapon bob at the end of ME3 and I always found that weird also. Then I started watching the play-demo of Leviathan DLC  on Gamespot, the weapon bob is similar to the weapon bob Shepard has during the Leviathan demo, same type of Bob. Of course this bob is caused by the ocean currents, but could it be a reference?

Otter, welcome back!

I dont really know what to make of there being a bob in Leviathan, as I havent looked at the demo, and dont really plan to, but if it's on the ocean, I'd say its just the way the ocean is.

[BlazingZephyr]

Rifneno wrote...

BlazingZephyr wrote...

Now that I think of it, your list would specifically be a Full Paragon (Synthesis is viewed as such by many people) Shepard. That makes your observation even stranger, since Saren could be viewed as "ends justify means"
Renegade (join Reapers to ensure survival of the cycle).

Could be? A biography of Saren would be called "The Ends Justify the Means. That's Why I'm Shooting You." Almost everytime Saren pops up in the books, he's doing something terrible because he only cares about the ends. Torture, murder, you name it. I think Saren is more apt for Arian's monsters quote than Shepard for that reason. He probably did start off good, intending to make the galaxy a better place. He thought he was right up until the end, even pre-Sovereign. But soon enough all he focused on was the ends. On occasion, terrible things must be done for the greater good. Aratoht was a good example of that. But for Saren, on occasion was all the time. He made no attempt to do things without horrible methods and the price of his "victories" never bothered him in the least.

Speaking of Atatoht, I found this in my old motivationals file from right after Arrival came out. I must be some kind of prophet lol.

Maybe, but, according to Anderson (maybe books, haven't read), Saren was still an "Ends>Means" douche twenty years ago (assuming that this was before Soveriegn. Like I said, haven't read books or other media).

[byne]

starlitegirlx wrote...

Wow I missed a lot of pages while playing ME2 today and ME1 yesterday.

Something fascinated me in ME2 today because I remember hearing that it was a storyline or even a core reaper issue that was abandoned but it's in ME2... Halestrom, when tali is trapped on that planet with the scorching sun. Well when I was talking to Reeger before leaving to clear the ship at her treason trial, there was an option to has about it. And they talked about the dark energy and how strange it was but they didn't understand it, the why or how or what it meant. I know it's not IT related but thought it was totally strange especially since I've heard something about how that was supposed to be some part or main part of something to do with the reapers but was abandoned. Makes me wonder about IT though IT has been prevalent throughout the story while this is the first I heard or the dark energy within the game.

I think Gianna Parasini also mentions dark energy

[Rifneno]

BlazingZephyr wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

BlazingZephyr wrote...

Now that I think of it, your list would specifically be a Full Paragon (Synthesis is viewed as such by many people) Shepard. That makes your observation even stranger, since Saren could be viewed as "ends justify means"
Renegade (join Reapers to ensure survival of the cycle).

Could be? A biography of Saren would be called "The Ends Justify the Means. That's Why I'm Shooting You." Almost everytime Saren pops up in the books, he's doing something terrible because he only cares about the ends. Torture, murder, you name it. I think Saren is more apt for Arian's monsters quote than Shepard for that reason. He probably did start off good, intending to make the galaxy a better place. He thought he was right up until the end, even pre-Sovereign. But soon enough all he focused on was the ends. On occasion, terrible things must be done for the greater good. Aratoht was a good example of that. But for Saren, on occasion was all the time. He made no attempt to do things without horrible methods and the price of his "victories" never bothered him in the least.

Speaking of Atatoht, I found this in my old motivationals file from right after Arrival came out. I must be some kind of prophet lol.

Maybe, but, according to Anderson (maybe books, haven't read), Saren was still an "Ends>Means" douche twenty years ago (assuming that this was before Soveriegn. Like I said, haven't read books or other media).

I meant when he started his career or whatever you'd like to call it.  He was already an accomplished spectre by the time he started screwing with Anderson's life.

[BlazingZephyr]

starlitegirlx wrote...

Wow I missed a lot of pages while playing ME2 today and ME1 yesterday.

Something fascinated me in ME2 today because I remember hearing that it was a storyline or even a core reaper issue that was abandoned but it's in ME2... Halestrom, when tali is trapped on that planet with the scorching sun. Well when I was talking to Reeger before leaving to clear the ship at her treason trial, there was an option to has about it. And they talked about the dark energy and how strange it was but they didn't understand it, the why or how or what it meant. I know it's not IT related but thought it was totally strange especially since I've heard something about how that was supposed to be some part or main part of something to do with the reapers but was abandoned. Makes me wonder about IT though IT has been prevalent throughout the story while this is the first I heard or the dark energy within the game.

"Dark Energy" was Drew Karpyshyn's original idea for ME3. Gianna Parasini mentions it as well. Drew's original idea was to make the final choice "Allow Humanity's harvest, in order to save the rest of the galaxy from DE expansion" OR "Destroy Reapers and try to find own solution to DE threat."

[smokingotter1]

byne wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...

Hey Guys, just letting you all know I'm still here... after my left temper tantrum I'm crawling back into the forum doing walk of shame. Wait, otters have no shame, nm.

You guys were talking about the weapon bob at the end of ME3 and I always found that weird also. Then I started watching the play-demo of Leviathan DLC  on Gamespot, the weapon bob is similar to the weapon bob Shepard has during the Leviathan demo, same type of Bob. Of course this bob is caused by the ocean currents, but could it be a reference?

Otter, welcome back!

I dont really know what to make of there being a bob in Leviathan, as I havent looked at the demo, and dont really plan to, but if it's on the ocean, I'd say its just the way the ocean is.

Good to be back.

My point is everything in the ending to ME3 is symetrical to the beginning:

Reaper beam that kills Shepard's judges-conduit run, decision chamber

Harbinger dropping down eyes to the top right of the conduit run (from Shepard's POV), dead hallway with that orange light to the top right, the decision chamber with the "sun" to the top right

Beginning ME3 with Anderson, ending ME3 with Anderson. Beginning ME3 with starchild playing with "ship" and ending with the decision chamber.

It could just be a simple ocean bob, or it could be a set up for a reference to Leviathan's influence on Shepard towards the end of ME3 that has not been addressed yet. It could be that some of the oddities that we find in the ending of ME3 will be referenced in the gameplay of future DLC that puts the entire enchilida into context.

I rest my flimsy case. (I think this makes sense, I just had some sleepytime tea and am about to hit the sack).

Modifié par smokingotter1, 07 août 2012 - 03:02 .

[Rifneno]

The dark energy mentions I can recall: 1. any usage of element zero in relation to mass effect (i.e. biotics, FTL travel, ect.). 2. Veetor, the mentally unstable quarian you meet on the Freedom's Progress. 3. Haestrom and its mysteriously fast aging sun, Dholen. 4. Gianna Parasini mentions increased dark energy studies on Noveria. 5. The Crucible works via dark energy.

[Chriz Tah Fah]

byne wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...

Hey Guys, just letting you all know I'm still here... after my left temper tantrum I'm crawling back into the forum doing walk of shame. Wait, otters have no shame, nm.

You guys were talking about the weapon bob at the end of ME3 and I always found that weird also. Then I started watching the play-demo of Leviathan DLC  on Gamespot, the weapon bob is similar to the weapon bob Shepard has during the Leviathan demo, same type of Bob. Of course this bob is caused by the ocean currents, but could it be a reference?

Otter, welcome back!

I dont really know what to make of there being a bob in Leviathan, as I havent looked at the demo, and dont really plan to, but if it's on the ocean, I'd say its just the way the ocean is.

What otter might be talking about is Turbo's theory that the ending sequence is actually Leviathan testing Shepard to see if he/she is worthy of his help. It seemed plain from the "you have come too far" that Leviathan is not really willing to help even though Bioware hinted that he would...? This would make sense if Leviathan fed you misinformation only to project that during Shepards "indoctrination." It is quite possible that Leviathan is testing Shepard's resilience and resolve based on the 4 choices. Destroy (maybe control) would cause Leviathan to help you, Synthesis would cause him to kill you, and Reject would cause him to abandon you. 

I for one like this theory and it does have its own grounds and plot material.

[Rifneno]

BlazingZephyr wrote...

"Dark Energy" was Drew Karpyshyn's original idea for ME3. Gianna Parasini mentions it as well. Drew's original idea was to make the final choice "Allow Humanity's harvest, in order to save the rest of the galaxy from DE expansion" OR "Destroy Reapers and try to find own solution to DE threat."

The dark energy plot proposal sucks.  It has a lot of plot holes, most of them to do with the Milky Way being only one of hundreds of billions of galaxies.  Doesn't even get bonus points for somehow using the Great Attractor.  Fail.

Although there's a very significant chance that dark energy was only Karpyshyn's idea on the Reaper's attempt to indoctrinate Shepard.  The dark energy theory would at least give one pause, moreso than the fountain of idiocy Starbinger currently spews.

[The Heretic of Time]

CoolioThane wrote...

Hanar - it may have taken him a long time but I didn't think it was any good. This doesnt mean I didn't understand it, just that I thought it was crap. You can knock me for my opinion and continue to believe the world revolves around you but that's probably not the most mature option. Of course, I have never shown maturity, as you've known me for my entire life, and not just on an I trendy discussion board you troll. Waste of space.

Funny how you always have to reply to me, ALWAYS, even though I'm such a "waste of space" and a "troll". Kinda ironic isn't it? Why are you spending so much time on replying to my every post if i'm such a "waste of space" and a "troll"?

You should listen to your superiors, like Byne. He/she is smarter than you.


I must be really getting under your skin, am I not? Or are you just the kind of immature person who always wants to have the last word and can't make a valid argument without slinging some foul language and insults at other people?

Your capablity of expressing yourself in a mature way is seriously lacking, which makes me wonder how old you really are, because you strangely enough remind me of myself when I was just a 17 years old ignorant lil' pup. Ahhh, those where the days. Good times, good times.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 07 août 2012 - 03:11 .

[Dam0299]

Welcome back otter.

[BlazingZephyr]

Rifneno wrote...

BlazingZephyr wrote...

"Dark Energy" was Drew Karpyshyn's original idea for ME3. Gianna Parasini mentions it as well. Drew's original idea was to make the final choice "Allow Humanity's harvest, in order to save the rest of the galaxy from DE expansion" OR "Destroy Reapers and try to find own solution to DE threat."

The dark energy plot proposal sucks.  It has a lot of plot holes, most of them to do with the Milky Way being only one of hundreds of billions of galaxies.  Doesn't even get bonus points for somehow using the Great Attractor.  Fail.

Although there's a very significant chance that dark energy was only Karpyshyn's idea on the Reaper's attempt to indoctrinate Shepard.  The dark energy theory would at least give one pause, moreso than the fountain of idiocy Starbinger currently spews.

I didn't say it was a good plot idea. I was simply explaining the reason behind the mentions of DE.

[smokingotter1]

Dam0299 wrote...

Welcome back otter.

Thanks:happy:. It's hard being just a lurker.

[masster blaster]

Sorry I can't stay long, but I wanted to say welcome back otter, and I will leave you all to speculate.

[smokingotter1]

It's great to be back with you all, hitting the sack, happy speculating.

[Rifneno]

starlitegirlx wrote...

I'm still only about 4 months new to ME in general but as I played and then after I finished the trilogy a few times I started pondering some things, IT mainly and began searches and came across some idea about dark energy but had no idea what it was or how it fit in but that it was a proposal that never made it to the end game. It does sound like it would have made for a train wreck given there would have had to have been a lot of explaining for something like that at that point in the game since it sounds like it would have been a big issue and also sounds like it might turn the reapers into good things that keep the universe from imploding or something by harvesting advanced civizations so they don't trigger the end of everything. Actually, that's a pretty cool idea but would have had to have a lot more clues and less reaper sick stuff to keep it on a more sane looking explanation side.

Like many parts of ME's science, dark energy is a real thing.  At least in theory.  Here's an in-depth explanation.  Basically, it's what's responsible for the universe expanding.  According to the leak, the original ending of ME3 was supposed to be a big reveal that the Reapers have to wipe out civilizations because advanced civilizations use/create dark energy, which in turn accelerates the process.  So supposedly if the Reapers didn't reap, then the universe itself would soon simply be torn apart at the seams.

There's two major problems with this.  First, the technology everyone uses that uses/creates dark energy and accelerates the process is stuff the Reapers themselves left behind for them to use.  And the Reapers themselves use it.  It makes no sense.  Also, as you say, they're just plain sick.  With their technology it would be easy enough to cull the masses painlessly.  They can control minds, but they never calm the terror.  They even liquify people when they're fully conscious.  There's way too many things that point to the only logical conclusion being that the Reapers are sadistic monsters who enjoy their crimes.  They are not doing this for any greater good.