80611 réponses à ce sujet

[TheProtheans]

umadcommander wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

TheProthean is a very reasonable person, perhaps even more so than I am. He never resorts to swearing, abusive language or name-calling. He always stays civil, although sometimes agitated (no surprise there). I really don't understand why you kids keep calling him a troll. Is it because he disagrees with you and calls you kids out on your BS? Is that the reason why you resort to "lol don't feed the troll" posts?

calling a group of people a cult does not make you reasonable, this was one of the first things he said coming into the thread

Incorrect, I never called you a cult.
I asked if you were a cult.

[GethPrimeMKII]

I like the refuse ending. Its a nice curve ball Bioware threw our way.

[umadcommander]

Norlond wrote...

umadcommander wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Morning.

afternoon

+1

Did I kill the thread by posting on-topic-stuff?

nah, i think we need to get back on topic

[RavenEyry]

TheProtheans wrote...

Incorrect, I never called you a cult.
I asked if you were a cult.

Which is not something one goes around asking random people on the internet.

[Norlond]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

I like the refuse ending. Its a nice curve ball Bioware threw our way.

But that's about all it is, the only useful thing was the "so be it!" line
I think the Liara-capsule-scene is not part of the hallucination, I'm with rif on this one, the reapers can't be defeated conventionally

Modifié par Norlond, 10 décembre 2012 - 01:49 .

[Restrider]

Norlond wrote...
This is the latest relevant post, back on topic now :innocent:

btw, I don't believe in Puzzle Theory, I don't think BW will add something to refuse as it originally wan't intended to be an option, so why would they have plans for it?
From IT perspective, I see Refuse as a sign of Shepards mind being broken

That's the usual interpretation of Refuse in IT.
However I tend more to the interpretation that Refuse is the choice that compromises with the Reapers the least. It is my personal experience of my first playthrough (it was already with EC). Not necessarily the weirdness of the whole situation - though it was an important part of my experience - but rather the fact that the self-proclaimed leader of the Reapers offers you three ways to end the cycle.
These three options are presented by the Guardian in the following order of success or idealism:

Synthesis > Control > Destroy

Keeping in mind Reapers' notion to warp peoples' perspective, it is obvious to choose Destroy, but it is still presented by the Guardian (=Reapers).
Refuse defies the Guardian, it is thinking outside-the-box. It also is the choice that stays true to ME's themes of overcoming all odds (beating Saren and Suicide Mission come to mind) and self-determinism vs determinism.

Of course the events after the choice repel most players. The literalists see only failure for our cycle and the ITer's despise/ignore it due to the lack of any breath scene. However any kind of breath scene would just outright confirm IT, so it is no wonder that has nothing like the breath scene.

Take into account that this is my personal take on the Refuse discussion and I am in the minority here. Furthermore I believe that the Stargazer scene is also a hallucination.

[GethPrimeMKII]

Am I correct in saying that in the literal interpretation the Reapers have no desire to indoctrinate Shepard? If so, why does the Catalyst become angry if Shepard refuses to play along? Shouldnt the catalyst be overjoyed that the greatest threat to the cycle refuses to stay the course and use the super weapon to stop them?

[Norlond]

Restrider wrote...

Norlond wrote...
This is the latest relevant post, back on topic now :innocent:

btw, I don't believe in Puzzle Theory, I don't think BW will add something to refuse as it originally wan't intended to be an option, so why would they have plans for it?
From IT perspective, I see Refuse as a sign of Shepards mind being broken

That's the usual interpretation of Refuse in IT.
However I tend more to the interpretation that Refuse is the choice that compromises with the Reapers the least. It is my personal experience of my first playthrough (it was already with EC). Not necessarily the weirdness of the whole situation - though it was an important part of my experience - but rather the fact that the self-proclaimed leader of the Reapers offers you three ways to end the cycle.
These three options are presented by the Guardian in the following order of success or idealism:

Synthesis > Control > Destroy

Keeping in mind Reapers' notion to warp peoples' perspective, it is obvious to choose Destroy, but it is still presented by the Guardian (=Reapers).
Refuse defies the Guardian, it is thinking outside-the-box. It also is the choice that stays true to ME's themes of overcoming all odds (beating Saren and Suicide Mission come to mind) and self-determinism vs determinism.

Of course the events after the choice repel most players. The literalists see only failure for our cycle and the ITer's despise/ignore it due to the lack of any breath scene. However any kind of breath scene would just outright confirm IT, so it is no wonder that has nothing like the breath scene.

Take into account that this is my personal take on the Refuse discussion and I am in the minority here. Furthermore I believe that the Stargazer scene is also a hallucination.

I like the outside-the-box idea, but the main reason why I think refuse is not a good option is the no-conventional-victory thing
I would like to see Shep doing the impossible again, but it's highly unlikely this time

And the Stargazer scene always confuses me, I don't know what to think of it yet

[Fur28]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Am I correct in saying that in the literal interpretation the Reapers have no desire to indoctrinate Shepard? If so, why does the Catalyst become angry if Shepard refuses to play along? Shouldnt the catalyst be overjoyed that the greatest threat to the cycle refuses to stay the course and use the super weapon to stop them?

because in a literal view everything is just bad writing, so him angry makes sense because it fits that...
Literal LogicB)

[Restrider]

Norlond wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

I like the refuse ending. Its a nice curve ball Bioware threw our way.

But that's about all it is, the only useful thing was the "so be it!" line
I think the Liara-capsule-scene is not part of the hallucination, I'm with rif on this one, the reapers can't be defeated conventionally

You have to seperate Puzzle Theory and Refuse in the light of IT.
Do you think Shepard could break free from indoctrination through the Refuse ending?

Destroy    -> straight forward, keep to your goal
Control     -> wants to end the Reaper thread through the (very risky) attempt to control them
Synthesis -> aligns with the Reapers most and fullfils their agenda
Refuse     -> defies the Guardian/Reapers (this makes only sense, if Shepard/the player believes that there is something off)//gives up (if Shepard/the player take everything literal)

That is the reason why Refuse polarizes so much. A lot of people tend to believe the latter, I tend to believe in the first.
I could be totally wrong though.

[Restrider]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Am I correct in saying that in the literal interpretation the Reapers have no desire to indoctrinate Shepard? If so, why does the Catalyst become angry if Shepard refuses to play along? Shouldnt the catalyst be overjoyed that the greatest threat to the cycle refuses to stay the course and use the super weapon to stop them?

You could explain that the Guardian genuinely wanted another solution. Though Destroy should be definetly worse for the Guardian than Refuse in regards to his proclaimed solution he as to achieve. If we think literally, the Guardian should just shut down the Crucible (as he does in Refuse), when Shepard approaches the tubes...
But he does not.

[MaximizedAction]

Restrider wrote...
...
Take into account that this is my personal take on the Refuse discussion and I am in the minority here. Furthermore I believe that the Stargazer scene is also a hallucination.

Nah, I'm with you on that. I sometimes wonder why the "SO BE IT" got so little attention when considering that it is the very confirmation that the Guardian is indeed part of the Reapers and thus somewhat a Reaper himself.
While it's trivial for some, but with it people who trust him without any doubt side with the Reaper.

And I found it really great. It somewhat is also like an achievement itself, in this intellectual bossfight, you actively 'nope'-d everything and got this as a "Congratulations", the reveal that the Guardian is a Reaper.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 10 décembre 2012 - 02:00 .

[Fur28]

so will BW take the refuse ending out when IT comes out. Because i only see it as a option to apease angry fans

[dorktainian]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Am I correct in saying that in the literal interpretation the Reapers have no desire to indoctrinate Shepard? If so, why does the Catalyst become angry if Shepard refuses to play along? Shouldnt the catalyst be overjoyed that the greatest threat to the cycle refuses to stay the course and use the super weapon to stop them?

 


do you know you might well have hit on somthing there.  Although i'd say i'm a destroyer, refusal does seriously cheeze off this reaper dude.  Why is that?  Is it because you are willing to fight?  

The only reason the reaper would have said that was if it didnt get it's own way.  like a spoiled brat.  fine have it your way then....  

Refuse runs destroy a close second for me.  I wouldnt be too upset if bioware reveal this to be the right choice.

[Norlond]

Restrider wrote...

Norlond wrote...

But that's about all it is, the only useful thing was the "so be it!" line
I think the Liara-capsule-scene is not part of the hallucination, I'm with rif on this one, the reapers can't be defeated conventionally

You have to seperate Puzzle Theory and Refuse in the light of IT.
Do you think Shepard could break free from indoctrination through the Refuse ending?

Destroy    -> straight forward, keep to your goal
Control     -> wants to end the Reaper thread through the (very risky) attempt to control them
Synthesis -> aligns with the Reapers most and fullfils their agenda
Refuse     -> defies the Guardian/Reapers (this makes only sense, if Shepard/the player believes that there is something off)//gives up (if Shepard/the player take everything literal)

That is the reason why Refuse polarizes so much. A lot of people tend to believe the latter, I tend to believe in the first.
I could be totally wrong though.

Mhm I'll have to think about all that, maybe I can come up with some psychological explanation for Refuse (I liked the freudian trio thing with Shep/TIM/Anderson) that will make me rethink my perspective

So, I need to get some cookies and a drink and then it's google-time

[Restrider]

I hope not. Refuse in itself, even - or especially? - in a literal ending is really good, imo.
It is not a happy ending, it is not a game over screen, because there is still hope.

[RavenEyry]

I've always thought the mardy over refuse was because Shepard refused to play his game.

[MaximizedAction]

Fur28 wrote...

so will BW take the refuse ending out when IT comes out. Because i only see it as a option to apease angry fans

It's somewhat unfortunate that the game doesn't come with a manual that says which version we are to use to speculate on.

I personally chose the EC since it seems to stand for the bigger picture. And since Refuse is there, I don't think they'll retcon it again.
And I like to entertain the thought that the players IRL also kind of actively fought for this extra ending, it wasn't there highlighted, but we succeded in fighting and resisting and got it. Same goes for the high-EMS version of Normandy's crash landing (including the high-EMS version of "And End Once and For All").
It's all just a great alternate reality game to me.

[CoolioThane]

'sup guys. Handed in this term's work so I'm free. Feels darn good. Have the trolls gone and can we continue to discuss IT? Yesterday was full of discussion and was awesome

[RavenEyry]

CoolioThane wrote...

'sup guys. Handed in this term's work so I'm free. Feels darn good. Have the trolls gone and can we continue to discuss IT? Yesterday was full of discussion and was awesome

Oh they're not trolls, just people making pointless insulting comments in an attempt to start serious discussion.

[dorktainian]

Restrider wrote...

I hope not. Refuse in itself, even - or especially? - in a literal ending is really good, imo.
It is not a happy ending, it is not a game over screen, because there is still hope.

  

www.youtube.com/watch

[Jaison1986]

You know, I was thinking, Bioware really pinned themselves against an wall when they stated that they are planning an new mass effec game. There are 3 different endings to expand and canonizing only one of them would certanly cause a lot of fan rage. But what if the next DLC actually give us something similar to IT? Wouldn't that give us only one true ending were Bioware could easily expand on for the next sequel?

[dorktainian]

Jaison1986 wrote...

You know, I was thinking, Bioware really pinned themselves against an wall when they stated that they are planning an new mass effec game. There are 3 different endings to expand and canonizing only one of them would certanly cause a lot of fan rage. But what if the next DLC actually give us something similar to IT? Wouldn't that give us only one true ending were Bioware could easily expand on for the next sequel?

obviously you didn't take into account refusal.  that doesnt need clarification at all.  the beam turns itself off on earth and we fight or we die (or both)

[paxxton]

RavenEyry wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...

Incorrect, I never called you a cult.
I asked if you were a cult.

Which is not something one goes around asking random people on the internet.

And which is a question suggesting an answer.

EDIT: I didn't want this on top.

Modifié par paxxton, 10 décembre 2012 - 02:27 .

[RavenEyry]

Heh, maybe ME4 is in the next cycle and refuse is canon.

"You don't want our art?! Fine, rock falls, everyone dies!"